A different take on signs and wonders.

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Hidden In Him

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How many does this show being saved?

Much love!

I am asking you for your view. This passage says the harvest is the end of the age. Let me ask the question again. How many would you say are going to come to Christ during the end-times, and in what manner? Do you believe this passage teaches that the harvest will be few?
 

marks

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The Signs and wonders I am speaking of are ones of victory over the devil, and Overcoming.

I understand, and I don't really have a comment on things that aren't called in the Bible as "signs and wonders". I realize that you see some things being a Wonder, and those being for a Sign. I'm talking about is what you see when you look at those places this expression, signs and wonders" is used. There is a pattern of usage that we can see.

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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I am asking you for your view. This passage says the harvest is the end of the age. Let me ask the question again. How many would you say are going to come to Christ during the end-times, and in what manner? Do you believe this passage teaches that the harvest will be few?

@marks. Along with the above, before I forget, answer the one below for me as well. I'm curious what your view is on this:
Another question: Do you believe that God will speak to His people through visions and dreams, or is that something that has passed into history now?
 

marks

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I Pointed you to revelation 12:10-11 as one such sign,

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Compare to . . .

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

or . . .

Acts 5:12
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

In the one case, the multiplicity of miracles was authentication.

In Revelation 12, what is authenticated, and how?

Much love!
 

marks

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I Pointed to Ephesians 4 and the fulness of Christ manifesting in the church as she is empowered for the end time harvest in the Unity of the Spirit.

Rather than quote the entire chapter, if I remember rightly, your thinking is that since we don't have unity, this means the gift of discerning of spirit is on hold, and when it's off hold, then we'll see the unity and resultant signs and wonders, am I remembering correctly?

Much love!
 

marks

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I am pointing to the Wisdom of God exposing the things of Darkness as God has promised, and Of God using the simple to confound the wise of this world in this regard. These are all signs and wonders.

That may be so in your thinking, however, I'm looking at the Biblical terminology.

So I really think we are talking about two different things.

Much love!
 

marks

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I am asking you for your view. This passage says the harvest is the end of the age. Let me ask the question again. How many would you say are going to come to Christ during the end-times, and in what manner? Do you believe this passage teaches that the harvest will be few?
Do you want my numerical guess? In truth, I don't know a number. Do you?

We can compare opinions, but what is the value there?

Again . . . I'm going to defer to what the Bible itself says. I've posted some things it says.

You've posted this passage to support your view, and while there will be an harvest, I don't see where it shows many or few. And I don't see where it shows signs and wonders.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Another question: Do you believe that God will speak to His people through visions and dreams, or is that something that has passed into history now?
I believe God does speak to us in visions and dreams, as we've discussed before. But we need to weigh everything against the Bible. God will NEVER contradict Himself, I don't think!

Much love!
 

David H.

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In the one case, the multiplicity of miracles was authentication.

In Revelation 12, what is authenticated, and how?

The Work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the saints who overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. You see Satan accuses the brethren over and over again, saying they are not worthy, this authentication of finished work of Christ in us results in the end times judgment.

Acts 5:12
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

In the one case, the multiplicity of miracles was authentication.

Notice the "all were in one accord" part of the verse you quoted. Is this not what I am trying to get at in this OP? My Goal in this post is to bring dialogue between those that are divided by the chasm between cesationism and continuism, Part of this is showing what we on both sides are lacking, which is the gift of discerning of spirits. I Have been through this conversation with charismatics and how the NAR/ Dominionist teachings are leading them astray because of this lack of discerning of spirits, and yes, I see this with you in that signs and wonders will be used to verify this false Kingdom now/ church Militant message, which is very seductive and based in seducing spirits.

So when you say:....
your thinking is that since we don't have unity, this means the gift of discerning of spirit is on hold, and when it's off hold, then we'll see the unity and resultant signs and wonders, am I remembering correctly?
....You are missing the whole point of the OP here. The fact that there is not unity, and the church is not in One accord, there are no signs and wonders of the Power of God manifesting in the believers. They have, To use the analogy of the talents, buried the talent in the ground. "Having a form of Godliness but denying the Power thereof" (2 Tim. 3:5)
The Lack of the Gift of discerning of spirits is, as i said, Of God's doing, so that we will come together, see that both sides of this divide have a need and that need is of Christ in his fulness. Until that occurs those in fundamentalist circles, and those in charismatic circles may be living in complacency of where they are at and in this respect in denial as is indicative of the Laodicean church, saying we are rich and increased in goods and in need of nothing.

So I will challenge you now, How is it that the gift of discerning of spirits manifests in a believer? I Open this to all who are interacting here, whether fundamentalist or charismatic or anything in between.
 

Hidden In Him

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You've posted this passage to support your view, and while there will be an harvest, I don't see where it shows many or few.

Your previous posts suggest you think it will be fewer and fewer:
What trend would you suppose this shows? I'm thinking that it means fewer and fewer will have faith.

If it will be fewer and fewer, then am I to assume you interpret the passage to say that the harvest will be few or many? This is a basic start off point to the discussion, which is why I keep asking for an answer.
I believe God does speak to us in visions and dreams, as we've discussed before. But we need to weigh everything against the Bible. God will NEVER contradict Himself, I don't think!

Ok, now then my next question is, do you think the Lord has already given visions and dreams relative to this issue or no?
 
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marks

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The fact that there is not unity, and the church is not in One accord, there are no signs and wonders of the Power of God manifesting in the believers.

So then you are thinking that the lack of signs and wonders is because of disunity in the church?

So I will challenge you now, How is it that the gift of discerning of spirits manifests in a believer? I Open this to all who are interacting here, whether fundamentalist or charismatic or anything in between.

My understanding of the gift of discerning of spirits is knowing the spiritual alignment someone is experiencing, or the spiritual source of something.

Is this person from God? Or not? That has a lot to do with it. Is this the Holy Spirit? Or a lying spirit?

They have, To use the analogy of the talents, buried the talent in the ground. "Having a form of Godliness but denying the Power thereof" (2 Tim. 3:5)
We need to put this passage back into it's context.

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What is the power that is lacking here? Is it the power to perform signs and wonders?

Paul is writing to Timothy concerning those who don't love God, they love themselves. And if fact he goes on about what a shambles their lives are in! A form of Godliness, but no power! Ever learning, but never reaching knowledge. And no sanctification!

Much love!
 

Angelina

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After reading about 5 or so pages of debate on whether signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are still occurring on another thread here, I thought I would chime in with a post that has a slightly different view.

Heavenly Father grant me the unction to speak what you are showing me, May your will be done in Jesus Name, Amen.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

I Believe the gifts of the Spirit have and do continue,1. save the gift of discerning of spirits which has been withheld from this generation. In Other words, God has chosen to make us Blind, That in the end we will all desire to see.

To some this blindness manifests in not seeing the gifts of the spirit, and to others it comes in the form of accepting all signs and wonders whether true or false as gifts of the spirit. In this regard both sides on this debate are blind. One is Blind to the gifts existence, while the other is largely 2. blind to the existence of false signs and wonders, and are blindly deceived, and in some cases deceiving themselves. These are hard words for both sides.

But as I said, there is a reason for this, and that is that faith comes not by seeing, As the opening verse alludes to. Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." 3. This Blindness is there for the purpose of making us desire this final outpouring of the gift of the discernment of spirits, the eyesalve of God as spoken of in Revelation. Until we whether continuationist or charismatic come to see this need together we will continue to squabble, and this squabbling is part and parcel to us coming to desire the gift of seeing.

This is why this final outpouring of the gift of discerning of spirits is so vital and to be sought for by all involved. I would think even the fundamentalist has to agree that we as a church are in dire need of this, and instead of condemning the charismatic, they should be asking why they are not seeing, Just as the charismatic who condemns the fundamentalist for not seeing should pray that they should come to see what the fundamentalist has a controversy about, as to the seducing spirits involved. This is the unity of the Spirit. This is not compromise, but rather Humility and Love for brothers and sisters who are diverse from one another.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Cor. 13: 8-10)

I Post these verses with the following questions for both sides, for the Charismatic, Do You acknowledge that there is a time when these things shall pass away, and that your prophecies may fail? and for the Fundamentalist, Has that "perfect come in" yet which is when these gifts will cease? Please think about this. Let the words convict you.

For His Glory.

Greeting @David H and welcome to the forum. Your point 1. The gifts of discernment is alive and well and moving in many believers including those who work in the area of deliverance which I have been involved in for the past 20 odd years. This may not fare well with your conclusion that God has made us blind so that in the end God will make us see, however, there are many out there who need help to be free from past bondages caused by their involvement or ancestoral involvement in things that are an abomination in Gods sight.

Point 2. I don't agree with your point that believers who move in the gifts of the Spirit today are blind to the existence of false signs and wonders at all. The gift of discernment is able to determine whether a divine move is from God or not. I think the opposite of your premise would be more about controlling of those gifts ie: believer who thinks they can manifest these gifts through their own will (Soul) rather than the Holy Spirit who is the instigator of the said gifts.

Point 3. We already have those gifts brother. We either receive them by faith or do not receive them because we do not believe that they are for today. Like yourself, you believe that they are for a future event and you will certainly not be able to move in these gifts because of your unbelief.

The rest of your premise is of course moot. Blessing and Peace to you and yours xox
 

marks

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Ok, now then my next question is, do you think the Lord has already given visions and dreams relative to this issue or no?
If the dreams and visions don't match the Word, should we accept them?

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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If the dreams and visions don't match the Word, should we accept them?

Much love!

LoL! Marks, you sometimes do this when you are not comfortable being pinned down to an answer. But I can't respond to the above post until you tell me definitively if you think the passage in question teaches that the harvest will be many or few.

So here. I have work to do anyway.

But do me a favor (chorus). I'll check back with you tomorrow, and God bless.


 

marks

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LoL! Marks, you sometimes do this when you are not comfortable being pinned down to an answer. But I can't respond to the above post until you tell me definitively if you think the passage in question teaches that the harvest will be many or few.
You fall back on some idea of emotionalism.

But that's not what's happening here.

You won't hear my answers, I'm trying to point you to the Bible itself in a very pointed way, hoping that you will receive answers from the Bible.

The fact is, that passage Does Not give numbers, or a distinction of "many or few". Press me all you want for an answer, but if it's not there, I'm not just going to make something up.

BTW . . . I really only listen to praise and worship music, mostly hymns. Just fyi . . .



Much love!
 
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David H.

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Greeting @David H and welcome to the forum. Your point 1. The gifts of discernment is alive and well and moving in many believers including those who work in the area of deliverance which I have been involved in for the past 20 odd years. This may not fare well with your conclusion that God has made us blind so that in the end God will make us see, however, there are many out there who need help to be free from past bondages caused by their involvement or ancestoral involvement in things that are an abomination in Gods sight.

Point 2. I don't agree with your point that believers who move in the gifts of the Spirit today are blind to the existence of false signs and wonders at all. The gift of discernment is able to determine whether a divine move is from God or not. I think the opposite of your premise would be more about controlling of those gifts ie: believer who thinks they can manifest these gifts through their own will (Soul) rather than the Holy Spirit who is the instigator of the said gifts.

Point 3. We already have those gifts brother. We either receive them by faith or do not receive them because we do not believe that they are for today. Like yourself, you believe that they are for a future event and you will certainly not be able to move in these gifts because of your unbelief.

The rest of your premise is of course mute. Blessing and Peace to you and yours xox

Hi Angelina welcome to the discussion.
Every Christian has discernment But not every Christian has the gift of discerning of spirits. Just like every believer can have a miraculous healing occur, but few have the gift of healing. Your criticism is flawed because you do not make this distinction. An Outpouring is when a large group simultaneously receives a gift as in the gift of Tongues.

I asked @marks The question "How is it that the gift of discerning of spirits manifests in a believer?"

His response was what this gift is, My question was how does this manifest itself in the believer? My guess is that most here or anywhere will not be able to answer this question because no one has experienced this recently, and this is being withheld. Then I will tie this in with scripture.
 

David H.

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My understanding of the gift of discerning of spirits is knowing the spiritual alignment someone is experiencing, or the spiritual source of something.

Is this person from God? Or not? That has a lot to do with it. Is this the Holy Spirit? Or a lying spirit?

You answered What is the gift of discerning of spirits.... I asked how does it manifest in the believer? What is associated with this gift falling upon a believer? I dare say none or few can answer because there is a blindness associated with this gift. You can look upcommentaries if you like, but they will not help as most have no experience with this gift.