The False Doctrine with key word "COVER"

[CharismaticLady]

@mjrhealth
You said in the other forum:
Than tell us we are all sinners, either HE has or HE has not. Or as Paul put it.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Isnt it up to Jesus to take care of us, If He will not impute Sin on us, will you insist on doing it for Him, It is finished is it not.

Committing sin is finished, yes. But you are reading Romans 7 out of context. This is about the Jews under the law who had to keep the law with their carnal nature Romans 7:13. It is the law of sin and death. You have no power over the sin in your nature, but your mind knows the law.

Jesus cured that never ending dilemma by giving us a new nature. It is called being born again.

Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Paul is saying that the bondage he used to be in, he is now FREE from. He can now fulfill the righteous requirements of the law without struggle.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

I really liked your post, though I would like to say . . . our sins are not in fact covered, rather, in our new creation, we are completely separated from our sins.

So that our new nature does not sin, all sin comes from the old nature.

But as we trust in God for our sanctification, letting Jesus be our Advocate instead of thinking we have to "go in there and make things right", then the sin and temptation tends to fade away. In the day of testing we cling more tightly to Christ.

Much love!

Your spirit is good, and that matters more to me than anything else. With respect to the word "covers" I think its a problem over semantics. Words are not fixed, and can mean different things to different people, depending on the context. I'm not sure our difference is theological, and may be simply the implications from our different view and use of the word "cover?"

I do agree that sins are not only "covered" but separated from the believer. That is, we depart from a life of sin, from the carnal life, and begin to live in conformity with Christ.

On the other hand, no matter how righteous we are, our human spirits remained flawed, and affected by the Sin Nature. That is, we do *not* ever become sinless until the New Creation. You also seem to be saying that?

What we will agree on is that the righteous Christian does not, generally, live a life of sin, and does not, generally, live a life in the flesh. We have Christ living inside of us, and we have a New Nature. It is our job to reject the carnal impulses, and to choose for the life of the Spirit.

That being said, we do not ever become sinless in this life, because we have a Sin Nature. We just do not have to capitulate to that life, which is called the "life of the flesh." There is a big difference between being "flawed by sin" and "living a life of the flesh." The Christian normally lives a righteous life, even though he or she has a flawed performance. But those who capitulate to the life of the flesh are not righteous at all, except when they don't indulge the flesh and choose to conform to God's word.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Who?

I have been a Christian for 49 years and been involved in many Christian chat rooms and never met one person who think god does not see their sin

I have, and most of them are on these forums.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Your spirit is good, and that matters more to me than anything else. With respect to the word "covers" I think its a problem over semantics. Words are not fixed, and can mean different things to different people, depending on the context. I'm not sure our difference is theological, and may be simply the implications from our different view and use of the word "cover?"

I do agree that sins are not only "covered" but separated from the believer. That is, we depart from a life of sin, from the carnal life, and begin to live in conformity with Christ.

On the other hand, no matter how righteous we are, our human spirits remained flawed, and affected by the Sin Nature. That is, we do *not* ever become sinless until the New Creation. You also seem to be saying that?

What we will agree on is that the righteous Christian does not, generally, live a life of sin, and does not, generally, live a life in the flesh. We have Christ living inside of us, and we have a New Nature. It is our job to reject the carnal impulses, and to choose for the life of the Spirit.

That being said, we do not ever become sinless in this life, because we have a Sin Nature. We just do not have to capitulate to that life, which is called the "life of the flesh." There is a big difference between being "flawed by sin" and "living a life of the flesh." The Christian normally lives a righteous life, even though he or she has a flawed performance. But those who capitulate to the life of the flesh are not righteous at all, except when they don't indulge the flesh and choose to conform to God's word.

You seem to underplay what I'm saying. As I said before, the old carnal nature is called the "flesh." Romans 8:9 says when we are baptized with the Spirit we are NOT IN THE FLESH, IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD INDWELLS US. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is free of the false doctrine of the Reformation, and have never been baptized with the Spirit and been born again to partake of the divine nature. Do you know about the divine nature? 2 Peter 1:2-4?

It is not by our works to not yield to temptation. Our new desires don't want to sin. The Holy Spirit works through our conscience, and when He is in our conscience it becomes super-sensitized, and we just cannot go against it, otherwise it is extremely uncomfortable.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The sin nature is called "the flesh." Christians who are born again are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. That is the meaning of being born again.

Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

My friend, this is the problem we're having. I *don't* perfectly equate the Sin Nature with the Flesh. For me, the Flesh indicates a choice to disobey God's word and to live independent of God. The Sin Nature haunts even those who are righteous by afflicting them with flawed tendencies and attitudes which must be fought continuously. Even in our most righteous state of being we are afflicted with the temptation to be proud, or to be angry, or to do or think something out of sorts with the mind of Christ. It is an ongoing battle for *righteous Christians,* and not just something happening to those who reject God.

There certainly is a relationship between the Sin Nature and the Flesh. But for me, living in the Flesh is a capitulation to the Sin Nature, whereas the righteous do war with their carnal nature, putting it under their feet. They generally set their minds on things above in order to put beneath them thoughts about the world. They turn on the light so as to not be absorbed with the darkness.

This is a battle we all must fight, in my thinking. If you don't do this kind of battle, I can't fathom what kind of Christian life you're living? I have to struggle with character all the time. I have to positively choose for God's love all the time. Sometimes it is easier, and sometimes it is not, for example, in the time of testing. If you don't get tested, then you aren't living the Christian life. The author of Hebrews argued that *all* of God's children have to be disciplined by God, if indeed they are true Christians.

Hebrews 12.7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

 

[CharismaticLady]

My friend, this is the problem we're having. I *don't* perfectly equate the Sin Nature with the Flesh. For me, the Flesh indicates a choice to disobey God's word and to live independent of God. The Sin Nature haunts even those who are righteous by afflicting them with flawed tendencies and attitudes which must be fought continuously. Even in our most righteous state of being we are afflicted with the temptation to be proud, or to be angry, or to do or think something out of sorts with the mind of Christ. It is an ongoing battle for *righteous Christians,* and not just something happening to those who reject God.

There certainly is a relationship between the Sin Nature and the Flesh. But for me, living in the Flesh is a capitulation to the Sin Nature, whereas the righteous do war with their carnal nature, putting it under their feet. They generally set their minds on things above in order to put beneath them thoughts about the world. They turn on the light so as to not be absorbed with the darkness.

This is a battle we all must fight, in my thinking. If you don't do this kind of battle, I can't fathom what kind of Christian life you're living? I have to struggle with character all the time. I have to positively choose for God's love all the time. Sometimes it is easier, and sometimes it is not, for example, in the time of testing. If you don't get tested, then you aren't living the Christian life. The author of Hebrews argued that *all* of God's children have to be disciplined by God, if indeed they are true Christians.

Hebrews 12.7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

That is up to you. I DO equate the flesh Paul speaks of in Romans 8:1-9 and Galatians 5:19-21 with the carnal nature that is now new and dead to sin. Romans 6:1-2; 1 John 3:5

 

[101G]

on point, Romans 6:12.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Randy Kluth]

You seem to underplay what I'm saying. As I said before, the old carnal nature is called the "flesh." Romans 8:9 says when we are baptized with the Spirit we are NOT IN THE FLESH, IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD INDWELLS US. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is free of the false doctrine of the Reformation, and have never been baptized with the Spirit and been born again to partake of the divine nature. Do you know about the divine nature? 2 Peter 1:2-4?

It is not by our works to not yield to temptation. Our new desires don't want to sin. The Holy Spirit works through our conscience, and when He is in our conscience it becomes super-sensitized, and we just cannot go against it, otherwise it is extremely uncomfortable.

Yes, we are experiencing semantical issues, which I explain in the above post (#45). Paul speaks "shorthand," or he would have to write over-long dissertations. To be "in the flesh" for Paul means to be capitulating to the flesh--it doesn't mean the righteous Christian doesn't have to war against the flesh. It doesn't mean the Christian is not afflicted by the Sin Nature. He just doesn't have to *capitulate* to the flesh! But we all have the "flesh nature" in us, which I'm calling the "Sin Nature."

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is up to you. I DO equate the flesh Paul speaks of in Romans 8:1-9 and Galatians 5:19-21 with the carnal nature that is now new and dead to sin. Romans 6:1-2; 1 John 3:5

Yes, I'm telling you that we *can* equate the Flesh with the Carnal Nature. I'm *not* going to agree with you that Christians do not have a Sin Nature, if that's what you're saying!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, we are experiencing semantical issues, which I explain in the above post (#45). Paul speaks "shorthand," or he would have to write over-long dissertations. To be "in the flesh" for Paul means to be capitulating to the flesh--it doesn't mean the righteous Christian doesn't have to war against the flesh. It doesn't mean the Christian is not afflicted by the Sin Nature. He just doesn't have to *capitulate* to the flesh! But we all have the flesh nature in us, which I'm calling the "Sin Nature."

What I believe Paul is talking about is not willful sins of lawlessness 1 John 3:4, but immature fruit of the Spirit. There is a progress, not regarding sin, but becoming perfect. Peter shows how to never stumble in the knowledge of Christ in 2 Peter 1:5-7.

 

[101G]

with the carnal nature that is now new and dead to sin.

one problem, the carnal nature is not new, Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

see one will have to know this. but many don't.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, I'm telling you that we *can* equate the Flesh with the Carnal Nature. I'm *not* going to agree with you that Christians do not have a Sin Nature, if that's what you're saying!

The only way we can resurrect our old sin nature like a dog going back to his own vomit is by quenching the Spirit. Paul commanded us to not quench the Spirit. Those who do, believing in OSAS will not save them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Technically, I would say that we can potentially capitulate to a carnal nature, but that as Christians we are not supposed to succumb to a carnal nature. So Christians, by nature, are to live according to their new spiritual nature.

This means we do not indulge the carnal nature, but it does not mean we are free of imperfection. It does not mean we are free of the Sin Nature. It just means we don't have to indulge that sin.

Our human spirits are imperfect even as we, by grace, cooperate with the Spirit of Christ, as we indulge our renewed minds and regenerated hearts. Being imperfect does not prohibit us from conforming to the word of God.

That's called "Grace," the ability to indulge ourselves in God's word even as imperfect creatures. What we then produce is not the life of the flesh, but rather, the life of the Spirit. It does not produce perfection out of ourselves, but it responds to, and conforms to, though only imperfectly, the perfection of Christ himself. It is Christ who is perfect, and not us!

I must say that we are indeed regenerated, and have acquired a New Nature when we become Christians. But this is far from saying we become perfect and flawless. We respond to God's word by grace, just as we did when we first came to Christ as unbelievers. It is *always* by grace that we respond to God's word.

But it's also important to note that we are not just responding to God's word to do good works, but also to be *made new.* When we are made new we continue to operate by Grace, and respond to God's word by Grace. We need to receive a New Nature by Grace, and we need to go on fighting the good fight in the Christian life by Grace, as well.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Randy Kluth

Some people believe we can go in and out of walking in the Spirit, mostly out. That is not true. But even those who continually walk in the Spirit are not perfect from day one. We will still commit trespasses against each other until our love for one another is perfected. 2 Peter 1:5-7 shows the last to step in perfection is love. In Matthew 6:14-15, these trespasses against each other can be continually forgiven by us forgiving each other. This reconciles the body of Christ to unity.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Technically, I would say that we can potentially capitulate to a carnal nature, but that as Christians we are not supposed to succumb to a carnal nature. So Christians, by nature, are to live according to their new spiritual nature.

This means we do not indulge the carnal nature, but it does not mean we are free of imperfection. It does not mean we are free of the Sin Nature. It just means we don't have to indulge that sin.

Our human spirits are imperfect even as we, by grace, cooperate with the Spirit of Christ, as we indulge our renewed minds and regenerated hearts. Being imperfect does not prohibit us from conforming to the word of God.

That's called "Grace," the ability to indulge ourselves in God's word even as imperfect creatures. What we then produce is not the life of the flesh, but rather, the life of the Spirit. It does not produce perfection out of ourselves, but it responds to, and conforms to, though only imperfectly, the perfection of Christ himself. It is Christ who is perfect, and not us!

What does the divine nature feel like to you?

 

[CharismaticLady]

one problem, the carnal nature is not new, Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

see one will have to know this. but many don't.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I can see where you would think I said that. Sorry. No the carnal nature is dead, and we receive a new nature. @Randy Kluth believes it is still alive, and it is we that do the work of keeping it at bay. If it is alive, it never became dead to begin with. We no longer have to fight the carnal nature just beneath the surface. Now we just do what comes naturally to the new nature - the divine nature of God. Even Augustine knew this, but the Reformationists destroyed the truth with a lie.

 

[101G]

I can see where you would think I said that. Sorry. No the carnal nature is dead, and we receive a new nature. @Randy Kluth believes it is still alive. If it is alive, it never became dead to begin with. We no longer have to fight the carnal nature just beneath the surface. Now we just do what comes naturally to the new nature - the divine nature of God. Even Augustine knew this, but the Reformationists destroyed the truth with a lie.

first thanks for the reply, second,
A. our spirits are renewed. but not our bodies yet... hence the scripture, Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." see sin is not in the body, for the body is dead, but sin is in your head. or is aware of it. it's in our conscious, this is the battle ground.
see there is a differen in sin and iniquity, they are not the same. and our actions rest on our conscious decision that we make.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Episkopos]

The sin nature is called "the flesh." Christians who are born again are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. That is the meaning of being born again.

Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

This is of course a mistake in understanding.....a horse of a different colour.

People like to reason backwards. They will claim some lofty things for themselves...and then try to make it fit. People ALWAYS take things too far...until humility and meekness are valued for the wisdom that these are in truth.

Tell a spoiled religious person that they don't yet belong to Christ...and watch the sparks fly from the outer carnal man...which proves they are not yet possessed of Christ. They react in the flesh. They say one thing and do another. So these are self-deceived.

Paul said...I have NOT YET ATTAINED. WOW...no Christian can admit to that these days.

How many have attained to a full ownership...full possession by God? Compare that to how many claim to be sanctified and justified by their own opinion...Claiming a salvation status for oneself is no different to what the Pharisees claimed. One by works and the other by mere beliefs.

So we indeed go in and out of the Spirit...if at all...if ever. They who don't know this going in and out have not yet gone in even the first time. You will KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free. A divine act of entering into the eternal rest of God...where there is no sin at all.

John says...I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...in Rev. 1

Now the bible has more authority than the opinions of people. So I would hope that holds true for all.

Was John ALWAYS IN the Spirit? Of course not. Or was John constantly relating being in the Spirit before saying anything? Like...I was in the Spirit on Thursday....?

Jesus said He was the door and we who actually enter into Him go in and out. (John 10)

It is only the ones that have never gone in that can't discern the difference.

Now we can walk very closely to the Lord without being crucified....by sheer faith and experience of God's faithfulness. But that doesn't mean resurrection life yet. Otherwise we are arguing with the self-improvement of the Jews...who deny Christ.

 

[101G]

This is of course a mistake in understanding.....a horse of a different colour.

People like to reason backwards. They will claim some lofty things for themselves...and then try to make it fit. People ALWAYS take things too far...until humility and meekness are valued for the wisdom that these are in truth.

Tell a spoiled religious person that they don't yet belong to Christ...and watch the sparks fly from the outer carnal man...which proves they are not yet possessed of Christ. They react in the flesh. They say one thing and do another. So these are self-deceived.

Paul said...I have NOT YET ATTAINED. WOW...no Christian can admit to that these days.

How many have attained to a full ownership...full possession by God? Compare that to how many claim to be sanctified and justified by their own opinion...Claiming a salvation status for oneself is no different to what the Pharisees claimed. One by works and the other by mere beliefs.

So we indeed go in and out of the Spirit...if at all...if ever. They who don't know this going in and out have not yet gone in even the first time. You will KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free. A divine act of entering into the eternal rest of God...where there is no sin at all.

John says...I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...in Rev. 1

Now the bible has more authority than the opinions of people. So I would hope that holds true for all.

Was John ALWAYS IN the Spirit? Of course not. Or was John constantly relating being in the Spirit before saying anything? Like...I was in the Spirit on Thursday....?

Jesus said He was the door and we who actually enter into Him go in and out. (John 10)

It is only the ones that have never gone in that can't discern the difference.

Now we can walk very closely to the Lord without being crucified....by sheer faith and experience of God's faithfulness. But that doesn't mean resurrection life yet. Otherwise we are arguing with the self-improvement of the Jews...who deny Christ.

correct, this is a spiiritual warfare. not with knifs and guns, no, a warfare of the mind, again, Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

understand, your flesh cannot do nothing without your permission.

example, your arm/flesh cannot rise up above your head unless you give it permission. see it's about the seat of authority. so who sits in your seat? the Lord Jesus or ... notice how I say this, "or you".

why do you think we have the helper? ... we need H E L P.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[DNB]

Many people try to white wash 1 John 3:9 with these verses, and as you said, you don't know what 1 John 3:9 actually means. But as for 1 John 1:8 and 10, these are saying what Paul did concerning mankind, and even those under the law of Moses - all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But Jesus doesn't leave us that way. When we truly repent, He cleanses us of all unrighteousness. That includes the sin in our nature, and gives us a new nature devoid of the desire to sin. Thus, we no longer sin in the present or future.

Study 2 Peter 1:2-11. This tells you how to become perfect.

I'm sorry, I don't recall ever saying that I do not know what 1 John 3:9 means, But, rather on the contrary, I have explicitly stated that it is you that has misconstrued the meaning, and it was I that had explicated it correctly. It is an idealism, an objective made possible depending on one's faith and wisdom. But you have turned it into a veritable fact, that not in a million years will you ever be able to substantiate your position with any viable proof.