kcnalp
Well-Known Member
Proverbs 16:33 (NKJV)
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
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Sorry, when we speak of free will, are we not referring exclusively to beings created in the image of God (rhetorical)? Sorry Rudometkin, I do not see any plausibility whatsoever in your question - ascribing free-will to inanimate objects?
Hi Rudometkin, I've often put it this way, just as a parent often knows their children better than the children know themselves, the parents create an environment that is designed to induce the children to act in a way that is in their best interest. The children have complete autonomy and free will, but it is the parents who are ultimately in control.
Right, I don't believe that God controls all things, but I do believe that He is sovereign, which I explained above.
So, sorry if I missed your question. I just kind of jumped into the discussion.
Yes, but that is not part of the equation, only one being that God created was endowed with His image. And it is only this being that God demands obedience, and thus, definitively must have free-will. God's concern is not the salvation of mountains and mosquitos, they are just part of the interface for the relationship between God and man. Yes, all inanimate objects are pre-programmed, and thus we expect complete compliance with God's will. Does that, according to my point, detract from God's wisdom - yes, for the sake of argument - but only if that was all there was to the story. But since man is the only part of the equation that matters, since we're talking about eternity, this is where my principle becomes relevant and imperative.Sure we are, but not necessarily. When you say:
- "nothing spectacular in being sovereign, when you have everyone hard-wired to do your will"
Do you not mean that there is nothing spectacular in being sovereign when nothing is there with ability to deny your will?
If that is what you mean, then when God formed the earth, would it have not been spectacular unless the earth had the ability to refuse His will to form it?
Are you not following?
...and that state of existence is what, free will or not?Are the children depending on the power of their parents to exist? If not, then the children certainly do have a sense of free will relative to their parents, and I grant that the parents would have a sense of control over their children.
Do you believe that both the children and the parents depend on God's power to exist?
If so, then the people cannot have free wills relative to God, and the analogy crumbles. He who provides existence determines the state of existence.
God's Word, the Bible has foretold many things that are certain to happen. Can man stop any of them?
"Free Will" is only in effect when a person has options. If such has no means to act on their choice, they have only preferences.Discuss support and implications of the two opposing doctrines regarding 'Free Will' and 'Determinism' below.
Free Will: Man has the power to think on his own apart from God.
Determinism: God controls all things.
Yes, God controls all things, yet he has given men and angels free will. So free will is not in conflict with the sovereignty of God (as some vainly imagine). We see free will in action in the third chapter of Genesis. And we also see the disastrous results of Adam and Eve exercising their free wills. Had they been programmed to obey God under any and all circumstances, we would not be where we are today.Determinism: God controls all things.
Yes, but that is not part of the equation, only one being that God created was endowed with His image. And it is only this being that God demands obedience, and thus, definitively must have free-will. God's concern is not the salvation of mountains and mosquitos, they are just part of the interface for the relationship between God and man. Yes, all inanimate objects are pre-programmed, and thus we expect complete compliance with God's will. Does that, according to my point, detract from God's wisdom - yes, for the sake of argument - but only if that was all there was to the story. But since man is the only part of the equation that matters, since we're talking about eternity, this is where my principle becomes relevant and imperative.
...and that state of existence is what, free will or not?
Are you limiting God's creative ability? In other words, can God not bestow free-will to a creature? If He can create, what are the limitations of his omnipotence? If God cannot allow man to have free-will for whatever intrinsic reason, then again, the institution of the Levitical Law was pointless, and decree to be obedient and 'holy as He is holy' was utterly futile and foolish. The death penalty for adultery, murder and breaking the Sabbath would be nothing but cruel and sadistic. And the command to love would absolutely meaningless.
Does God have the ability to endow a being created in His image with free-will, or not?
"Free Will" is only in effect when a person has options. If such has no means to act on their choice, they have only preferences.
It is true that a preference is also an expression of free will, but not a effectual one.
If you have $100, there are a lot of different ways that you can spend it [free will].
If you have $0 (and nothing to sell), you have extremely minimal options.
God controls all of the big stuff and can limit our choices without violating are free will.
- He can allow the consequences of our bad decisions to take away all of our options.
- Conversely, He can bless His children, undeservedly, knowing that they will act favorably in the interests of His Kingdom [John 15:7-8].
Ok, if it works for you, but it doesn't make a lick of sense to me for God to claim to be upset with his people if they are only doing exactly what he determined for them to do. That actually makes God a liar.Does struggle for God between His creation make more sense than God effortlessly creating and controlling all things for a purpose?
Does it seem pointless to create and control for a purpose?
Absolutely. He is the lawgiver.
Ok, if it works for you, but it doesn't make a lick of sense to me for God to claim to be upset with his people if they are only doing exactly what he determined for them to do. That actually makes God a liar.
God doesn't take away anything. Our sin choices do. If you blow the aforementioned $100, you can't blame God for the subsequent loss of your options.So you do not consider taking away effectual free will as violating free will, is that correct?
In a way, yes. After squandering his resources, God can add undeserved funds when it serves His purposes to do so.Do you think that man's will depends on God's power to exist?
God doesn't take away anything. Our sin choices do. If you blow the aforementioned $100, you can't blame God for the loss of your subsequent options.
In a way, yes. After squandering his resources, God can add undeserved funds when it serves His purposes to do so.
Yes, God controls all things, yet he has given men and angels free will. So free will is not in conflict with the sovereignty of God (as some vainly imagine). We see free will in action in the third chapter of Genesis. And we also see the disastrous results of Adam and Eve exercising their free wills. Had they been programmed to obey God under any and all circumstances, we would not be where we are today.
I don't understand why you insist on placing that limitation at God's feet. Because of sin, WE limit our subsequent options.So that is, you do not consider limiting the freedom of the will to be a violation of the free will. Is that correct?