Hell Fire

[Truther]

ok, so you applied a non-literal interpretation to the texts that I offered? Did you not just agree with me there?

Did we just reinvent the entire meaning of all Jesus' words, together?

Cool.

 

[Truther]

I think you're missing the point. The Lake of Fire doesnt burn forever. Read Jeremiah 31:38-40. Besides, the people in this passage are alive. They're worshiping the beast. If you read verse 12 it says, here is the patience of the saints. The Greek word that is translated here means, in this place. Is it your argument that the saints too are in a place of eternal conscious torment? Besides those two I've already shown that aion cannot mean eternal. Jesus said the aion would end. It's my opinion that Jesus knew Koine Greek better than all of the translators today.

What you guys need to realize is that just because you understand a passage a certain way, doesnt mean it's correct. You guys really should research this stuff or at least read it in context. Here you've given me a passage where living people are suffering to prove that the dead will suffer eternal conscious torment. This shows me you've not investigated this subject. You're simply tossing out passage that someone gave to you.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,....

 

[Truther]

Should I take that as a no? No God isn't a human. However, he has told us what His justice is, an eye for an eye. When someone was flogged they were to receive no more than 40 lashes. Your doctrine impugns Gods character more than once. Firstly, the Scriptures tell us that God doesnt lie. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Your doctrine says the soul that sins shall burn in eternal conscious torment. If your doctrine was correct it would mean that God lied. That the penalty for sin isn't death but rather eternal conscious torment. However, those who have researched know thatbGod didn't lie. Secondly, your doctrine portrays God as sadistic. It says that He keeps people alive eternally for the sole purpose if torturing them. That's hard to beleive when the Bible tells us that God is Love. It tells us that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

This is one doctrine I would be very cautious about pushing as you are seriously impugning the character of God.

God is not sadistic, but MADistic.

God is not a moody God that needs a psychiatrist.

God is yea or nay, black or white, all or nothing.

God is not a human that weeps for souls, but has a human son that did all that and continually mediates before His throne for us, because this perfect God only responds to this man's mediations.

As a matter of fact, precious in the sight of God is the DEATH of His saints.

He think reverse from humans and His ways are polar opposite of our ways.

You better realize that.

 

[Truther]

ha well i am no apologist for Hitler, but he was duly elected, after inciting a rebellion no less?
so i dunno, but i would contemplate Hitler being forgiven too
hard to imagine, i know

I heard a "theologian" on the Oreilly factor tell Bill that there is no hell, but only heaven.

Bill said, "is Hitler in heaven"?

...crickets....

Then he said, if Hitler is in heaven, then I don't want to be there".

 

[kcnalp]

I am not going to play the scripture game with you. The interpretation you have of Hell is not the burning garbage dump that Jesus uses to describe the condition experienced apart from God, nor does it match CS Lewis' understanding of Hell, which is a condition of a person who cannot experience God or paradise. Lewis' interpretation matches my own.

No Scripture? Of course you don't, because Jesus mentioned the eternal fire several times.

I don't have to "interpret" anything. It's perfectly clear.

Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[DNB]

Did we just reinvent the entire meaning of all Jesus' words, together?

Cool.

...I really don't know what just happened???

 

[kcnalp]

No, I'm saying you should learn how to make an argument. It's all the word of God. One part does take precedence over another. If you have to pit one part of the word of God against another your theology is messed up. It should all harmonize.

NT always overrules OT, for Christians.

 

[kcnalp]

Proof texting isn't an argument. It's a tactic of those without an argument

Quoting God "isn't an argument"?

Jude 1:6-7 (NKJV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[bbyrd009]

You're losing me.

ha well i guess you are not alone lol
so, as im not sure where i lost you, Adam and Eve died spiritually, right, and
he who says that he knows anything does not yet know it as he ought
.

Not sure what you mean. The Resurrection itself wouldn't.

he said, with overwhelming confidence
how not?

 

[bbyrd009]

I heard a "theologian" on the Oreilly factor tell Bill that there is no hell, but only heaven.

Bill said, "is Hitler in heaven"?

...crickets....

Then he said, if Hitler is in heaven, then I don't want to be there".

well i dunno if humans can forgive Hitler, but i suggest that Yah has
my arg would be that Hitler did not wield his power in a vacuum, was duly elected by the ppl, etc

as to the theologian's pov of a place called heaven, imo the Bible makes many statements that contradict him,
the kingdom of heaven is within you,
There is only One Immortal, Who lives in unapproachable light,
even
you and your sons will be here with me
we do not yet know what we will become,
et al

 

[aspen]

No Scripture? Of course you don't, because Jesus mentioned the eternal fire several times.

I don't have to "interpret" anything. It's perfectly clear.

Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

You've proven my point.
Like all those who would rather win than learn
You ignore what I've written and declare victory
Glad I didn't bother running around playing your Bible concordance

 

[kcnalp]

You've proven my point.
Like all those who would rather win than learn
You ignore what I've written and declare victory
Glad I didn't bother running around playing your Bible concordance

Jude 1:22-23 (NKJV)
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire ,

 

[Brakelite]

well, i suggest that we conflate "eternal" with "forever" to suit ourselves, when the definition is pretty clearly "a space of time, an age."

and where are we told to "seek" immortality? Again, i think put on immortality is being not heard as it was meant, likely so that the Cult of Sol could continue to be deceived.

and, wouldn't your New Jerusalem be a Kingdom that Comes by Observation?

KJV Romans 2:2-7
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Yes, in contexts where the grave or the torment is said to go on forever, there is that sense of limitation... For as long as it lives etc.
But you will be hard pressed to show that the after life that God does promise, is only temporary. Isn't even death destroyed in the lake of fire?
As for the new Jerusalem. Now you are conflating the kingdom with a literal city. The kingdom of God is within us. Not all Revelation is allegory and metaphor. Even the kingdom isn't a metaphor. It's real. It has a King. And it ain't us. The Kingdom of God is only within us as we have the rightful King on the throne. Otherwise it's our kingdom. Jerusalem is the city of the great King.
KJV Matthew 5:35
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

The city is not the full extent of the Kingdom. Seeing something literally at some time in the future is not a vain hope.

 

[bbyrd009]

KJV Romans 2:2-7
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Yes, in contexts where the grave or the torment is said to go on forever, there is that sense of limitation... For as long as it lives etc.
But you will be hard pressed to show that the after life that God does promise, is only temporary. Isn't even death destroyed in the lake of fire?
As for the new Jerusalem. Now you are conflating the kingdom with a literal city. The kingdom of God is within us. Not all Revelation is allegory and metaphor. Even the kingdom isn't a metaphor. It's real. It has a King. And it ain't us. The Kingdom of God is only within us as we have the rightful King on the throne. Otherwise it's our kingdom. Jerusalem is the city of the great King.
KJV Matthew 5:35
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

The city is not the full extent of the Kingdom. Seeing something literally at some time in the future is not a vain hope.

ok, ty

 

[Butch5]

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,....

So what's your point? Are you saying there's a contradiction? I've stated repeatedly that aion does mean forever. If you actually engaged you wouldn't continue to post passage that speak if forever. It doesn't mean forever.

 

[kcnalp]

So what's your point? Are you saying there's a contradiction? I've stated repeatedly that aion does mean forever. If you actually engaged you wouldn't continue to post passage that speak if forever. It doesn't mean forever.

Why are you preaching Greek? Are you a Greek expert?

 

[Butch5]

God is not sadistic, but MADistic.

God is not a moody God that needs a psychiatrist.

God is yea or nay, black or white, all or nothing.

God is not a human that weeps for souls, but has a human son that did all that and continually mediates before His throne for us, because this perfect God only responds to this man's mediations.

As a matter of fact, precious in the sight of God is the DEATH of His saints.

He think reverse from humans and His ways are polar opposite of our ways.

You better realize that.

Sorry bit thos has nothing to do with what I said. Your doctrine impugns Gods character. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Your doctrine says the soul that sins shall burn in eternal conscious torment. I think God has a better handle on it than you

 

[Butch5]

NT always overrules OT, for Christians.

If you understood exegesis you would realize how ridiculous that statement is

 

[kcnalp]

Sorry bit thos has nothing to do with what I said. Your doctrine impugns Gods character. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Your doctrine says the soul that sins shall burn in eternal conscious torment. I think God has a better handle on it than you

And here's what God said.
Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER.

 

[Butch5]

Quoting God "isn't an argument"?

Jude 1:6-7 (NKJV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

When you don't give your understanding of it it is. You misunderstand the passage thus you are not quoting God.