Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Randy, John the Baptist received the Holy Spirit in the womb! Remember???
For sure. My point was that not all men and women in the OT period or under the Law were carnal people.
Those in the OT that trusted in the Messiah to come, their previous sins were overlooked. Romans 3:25. But because they still had their carnal natures, they struggled to keep the law.
No different from us today, under the NT--we all struggle to keep God's universal moral code for mankind. We also struggle, as Christians, doing what God specifically leads us to do every day. Anybody married knows this, if they have a Christian marriage, or even if they are married and not Christians. It's difficult to serve one another 24-7, to put the other one 1st!
This sounds like only Jews alive when the New Covenant came obtained eternal life. That's crazy. Again, Romans 3:25.
I don't know what you mean? I said that all men and women obtained eternal life only after the cross--only after the NT era was initiated. All those under God's Law were as lost as the rest of mankind, even though they were in covenant with God and blessed by their obedience.
All of mankind was locked up under the curse of death upon sin, and nobody could obtain eternal life until Christ came and died for their sins. And so, Paul talked about the struggle under the Law that men and women in all ages wage. However, under the Law, Israel was unable, in their struggle, to obtain eternal life. By contrast, those in the NT era are able, through Christ, to struggle against sin and obtain, for their efforts, eternal life.
By grace they have been saved. Christ provided the atonement, and we receive it. And in choosing to live in his righteousness we are born again, and no longer have the old works of the flesh counted against us.
So Jesus only came to take away the condemnation for our sins so we can sin freely? Again, that's crazy and obviously a doctrine of demons, and a slap in Jesus' face. John 8:34-36; 1 John 3:5.
No, that's not what I'm saying, and that's what Paul was accused of saying also. The notion of liberation from condemnation does not remove the sin nature from us. The difference is that our righteousness is now recognized by an atonement that leads to eternal life. In the OT era, righteousness counted for something, but had to wait until Christ came to be recognized.
The key word here is *righteousness.* We accept Christ's righteousness as a replacement for our carnal lifestyle. We still commit carnal works in our weakness, but we don't live in them. Having chosen Christ to live at the center of our being, he becomes our driving force in our lives. That's what makes us "born again," I believe.
In the OT period, the saints did similarly, making God their only God, and making His word the driving force for their lives. After all, Jesus mentioned "born again" in an OT context initially.
The difference is that in the NT our new birth results in eternal salvation, whereas in the OT for all Israel's righteousness they still remained under condemnation. They were not less righteous than us--they only had to await Christ's atonement.
The kings and prophets were the only OT people that were anointed with the Holy Spirit.
You are using "anointing" in a very specific way. But if you were to say that the Holy Spirit only used people unless they were leaders, that would be mistaken. All men were given the word of God in their consciences, and all were made to be "like God." This can't happen apart from a work of the Holy Spirit. One did not have to be called to be prophet or king to serve God.
No, you miss the point of the gospel completely. Look at Daniel 9:24, the prophecy of what the Messiah will do. Jesus is not granting eternal life to those who still sin, but those whose DESIRE AND WILL to sin was taken away 1 John 3:5, preventing them from eternal life, for the wages of sin is still death, whether you claim to be a Christian or not.
The "taking away" part has to do with the removal of the curse upon sin, which is death. No saint of God has ever been without sin. No Christian who chooses to live by the righteousness of God does so being outside of a body infected with sin. Even when we live in righteousness, our failures are in evidence. You should know this. We merely need to confess this to be cleansed of it.
Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
I agree with all that, of course. We are called to live in righteousness. We daily have to defeat sin in our lives. In choosing to be righteous, we are prevailing over our sin nature. But no--it does not *eradicate* our sin nature!