Kenosis False Teaching

[Ziggy]

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

It would seem that Jesus in fact did lay aside His omniscience, yet remained God.

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

The Son did nothing of Himself. He refrained from self-direction, and was a True Servant, and served in the pattern set for all who will follow Him. That we likewise trust in the Father, and obey His lead in our lives, and live in His power through the Holy Spirit, just like Jesus.

Much love!

When you follow that whole chapter of Mark 13. Jesus ends up talking about the faithful and wise servant who is found doing good when his Lord comes. And warning to the evil servant when hi Lord comes.
So is that day and hour that no man knows but the Father, a universal occurance or an individual one?

Do you know the day and hour you will meet your maker?
Is that what Jesus is saying? And only the Father knows?

HUGS

 

[ChristisGod]

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

It would seem that Jesus in fact did lay aside His omniscience, yet remained God.

John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

The Son did nothing of Himself. He refrained from self-direction, and was a True Servant, and served in the pattern set for all who will follow Him. That we likewise trust in the Father, and obey His lead in our lives, and live in His power through the Holy Spirit, just like Jesus.

Much love!

I answered that with my post on the Hypostatic Union.

 

[marks]

When you follow that whole chapter of Mark 13. Jesus ends up talking about the faithful and wise servant who is found doing good when his Lord comes. And warning to the evil servant when hi Lord comes.
So is that day and hour that no man knows but the Father, a universal occurance or an individual one?

Do you know the day and hour you will meet your maker?
Is that what Jesus is saying? And only the Father knows?

HUGS

Feeding the other servants. I want to be found by Him that way. Whichever way He comes to me.

And even so He is here now, may I be found doing His work!

Much love!

 

[DNB]

I do hear what you are saying. For me it has to be something that I believe God has made clear to me as to the correctness of the issue as I hold it and that it is His will for me to insert myself into the situation with another person or persons. I cannot speak for you or anyone else on what they really know and what God is leading them to do... unless He leads me into it. That is between them and God.

Jesus was most of the time as we read it in the gospels a gentle soul teaching the truth and healing folks... but as we know there were times when both his hands and his mouth were directed rather differently. With Jesus he knew the truth of the matter and he knew God's will for him to open his mouth and to use his hands. We should know those things as well prior to our actions. This is why, as I see it, a current connection with God is necessary now and all of the time when we are walking with Him. Good talking with you!

I imagine that you are correct, i.e. one needs to have a profound awareness of the situation at hand, and hopefully insight as to how God deems that it is necessary to react. We don't want to discourage or unduly humiliate anyone. But, because I believe that I have detected a stubbornness and unwillingness to be reasonable, in them, I prefer a heavier hand to some degree in these cases....

Either way, very nice talking with you also amadeus, thank you!

 

[amadeus]

Extremely great and fair, ...unless one blasphemes Him. It's hard to reconcile the notion that one is truly seeking God, while at the same time defaming Him and His Word, with utter absurdities. Maybe I'm being naive but not appreciating how innocent such a theology and conviction can be, ...but, I don't think so. This is just offensive in every facet of Christian theology. God sent Himself, in order to propitiate Himself. God was mocked, abused, beaten and killed by His own creation. Jesus was a god-man (beyond incomprehensible, incompatible and implausible). No trinitarian terminology found anywhere in the Bible. Not one New Testament conversion took place using a trinitarian formula, I can really, really go on......

Do you think that I'm being impatient amadeus?

Well just remember that only God gives anyone a real increase in Him, that is also in the beliefs or knowledge that a person has. Of course, God may work through people, like you or like me to increase someone but it is still according to God's timing.

As I suspect you know, I am not a Trinitarian, but at the same time I believe that doctrines about the Godhead are not always in themselves critical to an individual's walk with God. I say, not always, because sometimes because of individual circumstances they might indeed be critical. God always knows.

I do believe that once a person comes to God as a baby in Christ, he should be growing. There are babies who are stunted in their growth for reasons perhaps beyond their control. It is, however, I believe important for a person to come to know whenever and wherever possible that he must strive to grow. To grow in the natural means to eat and drink as well as to engage in certain physical exercise, etc. Spiritually for the newborn believer there are what we might call parallels. I won't attempt to detail them here but...

As the child of God grows he should be learning, increasing, developing, become more like Jesus. This includes perhaps understanding of the scriptures and of doctrines which God wants them to understand.

However, even if we are certain that we are right and they are wrong. We may never convince the other fellow. The other fellow often is likely 0be just as certain that he is right. Even though our minds tells us that one of us must be in error how hard and for how long should we push? God does not twist people's arms to convince and neither should we. What is the limit on our part? For you I cannot say it without a revelation from God about you... which I do not have.

Go on from there!

 

[amadeus]

I was doing a study on Psalm 1 and the counsel of the ungodly. Sometimes little things even as small as a jot or a tittle.. can lead people a bit off course.
Personally I don't feel that it has anything to do with one's salvation in believing and having faith in God.
But I enjoy the conversations as long as they don't get too heated. I learn a lot from listening, not so much about the topic itself, but all the words and scripture that are used around it.

Gives me lots of food for thought..
And I never go hungry here
:)
HUGS

We are in agreement. I have seen too many discussions which I doubt were ever edifying for anyone. Since my reading, comprehension and concentration abilities limit me I have learned to avoid purposely certain topics and certain people...even though I have never put a person on ignore. Some years ago when I served as a moderator on another forum I made a point to read each and every post. It hurt me to do it and along with my inability at times to speak my own mind I was forced to quit after about three months. The pressure of it was too much like the secular job where at the end I had to take an early out, even though I loved the work, because it was burning out my brain. When I retired I was literally stretched onto death. A couple of more years and I do not doubt I would have died physically That was 20 years ago. I won't let myself get that stretched any more. God helps me set a pace I can handle. Give God the glory!

 

[DNB]

Well just remember that only God gives anyone a real increase in Him, that is also in the beliefs or knowledge that a person has. Of course, God may work through people, like you or like me to increase someone but it is still according to God's timing.

As I suspect you know, I am not a Trinitarian, but at the same time I believe that doctrines about the Godhead are not always in themselves critical to an individual's walk with God. I say, not always, because sometimes because of individual circumstances they might indeed be critical. God always knows.

I do believe that once a person comes to God as a baby in Christ, he should be growing. There are babies who are stunted in their growth for reasons perhaps beyond their control. It is, however, I believe important for a person to come to know whenever and wherever possible that he must strive to grow. To grow in the natural means to eat and drink as well as to engage in certain physical exercise, etc. Spiritually for the newborn believer there are what we might call parallels. I won't attempt to detail them here but...

As the child of God grows he should be learning, increasing, developing, become more like Jesus. This includes perhaps understanding of the scriptures and of doctrines which God wants them to understand.

However, even if we are certain that we are right and they are wrong. We may never convince the other fellow. The other fellow often is likely 0be just as certain that he is right. Even though our minds tells us that one of us must be in error how hard and for how long should we push? God does not twist people's arms to convince and neither should we. What is the limit on our part? For you I cannot say it without a revelation from God about you... which I do not have.

Go on from there!

I agree, ...and just to add, another reason that I often persist in denouncing what I believe to be heresy, because I know that there may be other people reading the post that might be influenced by what we write, even though the one that we are in direct contact with may be incorrigible. This is the double-edged sword of speaking in public forums, it's like we each have our own ministry or pulpit to preach from, to a rather wide audience. I try to keep in mind that others may be reading what I write, without focusing extensively on just the person that I am engaged with at the time.
Thanks!

 

[justbyfaith]

In this regard though there isn't a difference: both Athanasian Christians and LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different persons in one God. The difference is in the how: Ahtanasian Christians being through consubstanstaion, and LDS Christians through unity.
(Sorry, for the giant words- this is a big area of study and I'm trying to keep this reply short)

I believe that it is Mosiah 16:15 that says,

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very eternal Father. Amen.

That appears to be saying to me that Christ is the Father...that the Father and the Son are one in essence.

What say you?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I believe that it is Mosiah 16:15 that says,

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very eternal Father. Amen.

That appears to be saying to me that Christ is the Father...that the Father and the Son are one in essence.

What say you?

@justbyfaith , I am explained this to you MANY times already.

 

[justbyfaith]

You're the one in really big trouble, you'll have one heck of a time trying to explain both your positions about Jesus, and the KJV at the end time.

No; because I am right about the fact that Jesus is God.

It is those who deny the Deity of Christ who will die in their sins (John 8:24).

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith , I am explained this to you MANY times already.

You must be thinking of someone else.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You must be thinking of someone else.

@justbyfaith, I have explained this very subject to you over a dozen times. I don't see the benefit of going through those hoops again. Have a nice night.

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith, I have explained this very subject to you over a dozen times. I don't see the benefit of going through those hoops again. Have a nice night.

You have not explained it in light of the verse in the book of mormon that I gave you just now.

If you don't have an answer that is fine...it is just to say that your own scriptures teach against the doctrine that you say mormons hold.

As a matter of fact, as I have slowly been reading through the book of mormon, I have found that that is not the only verse that appears to teach Oneness doctrine. I didn't memorize the references so I wouldn't be able to tell you what they are...but there are other verses also that teach that Jesus is the Father in that book.

 

[Ziggy]

I am a cessationist of sorts but I am not at all a sensationalist.

I had to look that up. I didn't know what a cessationist was.

I believe tongues means different languages.
There were a lot of different groups of people gathered together on Pentacost.
And they all heard Peter speak in their own tongue, language.
Some people have a gift of many languages.

Healing I believe has to do with faith. It has to do with like, mind over matter.
I had a toothache once and I was able to push the pain to the other side of my mouth and out my cheek.
I don't think I could cure myself if I had a serious disease. but I never tried.
All I know is I'm still walking and talking and that's a miracle. Praise God!
But sometimes words of comfort can actually make someone feel better.
Then you have doctors and nurses that do healing for a profession.

I don't think prophecy is such a mystery. If you know cycles and understand that history repeats itself,
then in a way you can foretell in general what's going to happen. Everybody here does it all the time.
We are in tune with the ebb and flow and can feel the anxiety, we know something is about to happen.
You go through the bible and over and over, same story, different generation. It's all in there.
Jesus even chided them when He said, you look at the sky and you know what the weather will be,
but you can't look at the times and know what's coming?
The rise and falls of civilizations.. that's why we keep recordings of history. So we know what to watch for.

I don't think the gifts have ended. I think we just put too much emphasis on the "mystery" of those gifts.
Like, only if you were somehow "special" more than others could you participate.
I believe God gave to every man whatever his capacity is.

I can only speak one language. I can make someone laugh or cry.. that's a gift.. making someone smile :)

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I don't think they've ended.. in fact I think they been working overtime lately.. :)

And what is a miracle?
The same word is used in this parable about the talents:
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; G1411 and straightway took his journey.

Some people even have more than one. Some can talk in languages and translate.. that's helpful.. :)

Thank You Nancy!
HUGS

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You have not explained it in light of the verse in the book of mormon that I gave you just now.

If you don't have an answer that is fine...it is just to say that your own scriptures teach against the doctrine that you say mormons hold.

As a matter of fact, as I have slowly been reading through the book of mormon, I have found that that is not the only verse that appears to teach Oneness doctrine. I didn't memorize the references so I wouldn't be able to tell you what they are...but there are other verses also that teach that Jesus is the Father in that book.

@justbyfaith I've explained things to you over a dozen times only to every time be completely ignored by you, abused by you, and watch you have a mental breakdown.
I'm not interested in repeating that circus once again. Have a nice night.

 

[DNB]

No; because I am right about the fact that Jesus is God.

It is those who deny the Deity of Christ who will die in their sins (John 8:24).

Considering your views on the KJV, JBF, one might think that you can't be right about anything, seriously.

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith I've explained things to you over a dozen times only to every time be completely ignored by you, abused by you, and watch you have a mental breakdown.
I'm not interested in repeating that circus once again. Have a nice night.

Considering your views on the KJV, JBF, one might think that you can't be right about anything, seriously.

These things coming from two members of the two major pseudo-Christian cults in church history.

Thank you...your disparagement of me only serves to prove that I am faithful to the word of the Lord.

Otherwise, why would I be attacked by the members of two major pseudo-Christian cults?

I was more concerned about @Blood Bought 1953's disparagement of me than of yours....because he is faithful to the word to a very great degree and stands as one who has a reputation for being a faithful teacher of the word....and, btw, that problem has been resolved now...

But of least concern to me is the disparagement coming from people whose doctrine is based in cultic theology...

For that only serves to elevate me as a teacher rather than being actual disparagement in the eyes of anyone who knows anything about the Bible and sound doctrine from the word.

 

[DNB]

These things coming from the two members of the two major pseudo-Christian cults in church history.

Thank you...your disparagement of me only serves to prove that I am faithful to the word of the Lord.

Otherwise, why would I be attacked by the members of two major pseudo-Christian cults?

I was more concerned about @Blood Bought 1953's disparagement of me than of yours....because he is faithful to the word to a very great degree and stands as one who has a reputation for being a faithful teacher of the word....and, btw, that problem has been resolved now...

But of least concern to me is the disparagement coming from people whose doctrine is based in cultic theology...

For that only serves to elevate me as a teacher rather than being actual disparagement in the eyes of anyone who knows anything about the Bible and sound doctrine from the word.

@Jan
Well, I'm glad to hear that others are disparaging you also. I'd hate to think that I'm the only one with any sense in my head around here!

These things coming from the two members of the two major pseudo-Christian cults in church history.

Thank you...your disparagement of me only serves to prove that I am faithful to the word of the Lord.

Otherwise, why would I be attacked by the members of two major pseudo-Christian cults?

I was more concerned about @Blood Bought 1953's disparagement of me than of yours....because he is faithful to the word to a very great degree and stands as one who has a reputation for being a faithful teacher of the word....and, btw, that problem has been resolved now...

But of least concern to me is the disparagement coming from people whose doctrine is based in cultic theology...

For that only serves to elevate me as a teacher rather than being actual disparagement in the eyes of anyone who knows anything about the Bible and sound doctrine from the word.

@Jane_Doe22
Well I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one disparaging you around here. I'd hate to think that I'm the only one with any sense in his head on this forum.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, I'm glad to hear that others are disparaging you also. I'd hate to think that I'm the only one with any sense in my head around here!

That is reminiscent of the hatred that unbelievers have towards the faithful.

 

[ChristisGod]

That is reminiscent of the hatred that unbelievers have towards the faithful.

If it makes you feel any better I'm getting attacked from all sides in this thread :)