Kenosis False Teaching

[marks]

why do you run away from the verses I quote ? try addressing them with some thought and exegesis.

Oh . . . there is the matter that I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. You provide Scriptures upon Scriptures that Jesus is God and on this we agree.

I'm providing Scriptures which show that Jesus, while being God, emptied Himself, and this shows in His being dependant upon the Father, subservient to the Father, that there were things Jesus could not do, and did not know, because the Father was not doing those things, and the Father was not revealing those things.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

THis pare is exactly what I'm saying. So we are agreed up to this point.




At this point, you seem to be saying two conflicting things. You are saying that Jesus gave up His rights to use His divine attributes, but then you say this above, indicating that Jesus actually retained the use of His divine attributes.

So I return to the question of Jesus' knowledge of when He would return.

Either He did, or He didn't know. You claim He possessed all knowledge, and He claimed He did not know this.

How do you explain this discrepancy?

Much love!

What you might "perceive" to be conflicting is your opinion not mine.

People see many things that appear as " conflicting" or " contradictory " in Scripture and are not.

1- The Trinity- God is One yet 3.
2- The Deity of Christ- Only He has 2 natures and is Unique, One of a kind, monogenes.
3- Faith/works in Scripture
4- call to be sinless yet we still sin- be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
5- call to hate mother, brother, sister etc.... to follow Christ yet we are to love our enemies.

There are many more but these are easy to understand when we take the ENTIRE bible into context and not proof texting our man made doctrines into scripture. A text without the context is a pretext for a prooftext.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

Oh . . . there is the matter that I'm not saying Jesus isn't God. You provide Scriptures upon Scriptures that Jesus is God and on this we agree.

I'm providing Scriptures which show that Jesus, while being God, emptied Himself, and this shows in His being dependant upon the Father, subservient to the Father, that there were things Jesus could not do, and did not know, because the Father was not doing those things, and the Father was not revealing those things.

Much love!

and EMPTY is a bad translation as I have proven numerous times in this thread.

Philippians 2- KJV
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank. Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek English Lexicon

 

[marks]

What you might "perceive" to be conflicting is your opinion not mine.

People see many things that appear as " conflicting" or " contradictory " in Scripture and are not.

1- The Trinity- God is One yet 3.
2- The Deity of Christ- Only He has 2 natures and is Unique, One of a kind, monogenes.
3- Faith/works in Scripture
4- call to be sinless yet we still sin- be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
5- call to hate mother, brother, sister etc.... to follow Christ yet we are to love our enemies.

There are many more but these are easy to understand when we take the ENTIRE bible into context and not proof texting our man made doctrines into scripture. A text without the context is a pretext for a prooftext.

hope this helps !!!

I don't know how this helps address the question at hand. Yes, things can appear contradictory if you don't understand what's being said.

#4 is a terrific example of that. The perfection being called for in that passage is not "the moral excellence" of the Father. You mentioned context. The context there shows exactly what that perfection is. It is loving everyone equally, not just those that love you. The Father cares for all, so you do like Him.

So here is the apparent contradiction. God knows everything, and Jesus is God, but Jesus did not know everything during His earthly ministry. Did Jesus stop being God for that time? Did Jesus stop knowing everything for that time?

What did Jesus say?

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't know how this helps address the question at hand. Yes, things can appear contradictory if you don't understand what's being said.

#4 is a terrific example of that. The perfection being called for in that passage is not "the moral excellence" of the Father. You mentioned context. The context there shows exactly what that perfection is. It is loving everyone equally, not just those that love you. The Father cares for all, so you do like Him.

So here is the apparent contradiction. God knows everything, and Jesus is God, but Jesus did not know everything during His earthly ministry. Did Jesus stop being God for that time? Did Jesus stop knowing everything for that time?

What did Jesus say?

Much love!

I say you engage the text in Philippians 2 and exegete it for us and stay on topic. That is the what this thread is about. You have yet to address it and instead continue asking my 100's of other questions.

So I want to hear you exegete Phil 2:5-9 and specifically 2:7.

87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank. Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek English Lexicon

hope this helps !!!

 

[amadeus]

first thanks for your reply, second, I'm here at your service. the minstry of the Lord Jesus the Christ is a SERVICE to his body.

and I am as you was. I had a "oneness" challenge me when I was a trinitarian and the person made some good points and made me re-think my position, but I found out that the Oneness position was as flawed as the belief I was already in. away I had concerns before and after this encounter. but when confornted with facts, it makes one seek these facts out, IT WAS TIME FOR A CHANGE. so in my studying, afterward, I went to God and asked him in all honesty if he was trinity or not, or was he a single person as the oneness claimed. and to my surprise, he came to me, understand, he did not send an angel, but he himself came to me and answered my question personally.

and the answer I got was neither oneness, nor trinity, as I had asked. he revealed unto me that he is a plurality of his own-self, (HIS EQUAL SHARE OF HIMSELF), and the scriptures bared this out.

with that information, I asked him a third thing. if you're not a trinity, but a plurality of one, (meaning not a oneness), reveal to me what you really are? and in that same sentance I said this, "what you are, give me a name, that describe who, and what you are, (but the same gospel), only with a name that is not used by no one else". (as with the apostle Paul, I didn't want to build on someone else ministry). and he gave me the name, "Diversified Oneness". and when he taught me this, it said the same thing as what the apostle taught, BINGO, "THE SAME GOSPEL". so then I went in serious study, and followed his lead, and my mind was RENEWED in his KNOWLEDGE. and now everything fits in the bible, whereas now, I have no questions or doubts about the word of God. that's why I can comment in long complex explanations, because I know now what I'm speaking of is truth. and yes, it was not easy to understand at first, because we all have been precondition to believe certian things.

but as I have said, it takes "TIME". and I'm in it for the long haul. because I trust the Lord JESUS, in everything he has taught me.

by the way, it's an Intresting journey, the road, that I have taken, and as the apostle Paul said, so do I, "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before," Philippians 3:13 (kjv). translation for me, I will not allow myself to become stagnant, I will press toward the mark of IMPROVEMENT OF MYSELF IN WALKING WITH MY GOD ..... Christ Jesus.

I'll end it here on that note, because I don't want to go into a lengthy post.... (smile).

take care my friend, remember I'm at your service in anything that I can help you in.... thanks.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Yes, interesting journey and although I am undoubtedly closer to it... I am not at the end yet!

Over the years God has changed me on several things other than this Oneness versus whatever vision of God. I used to focus on them and early on after I returned to Him from my lengthy backsliding in 2002 I would purposely engage in debate or discussion with people of opposing views. Somewhere along the line, God stopped me from doing too much of that. What He did with me was... Not answer me specifically on the exact nature of Godhead even though I would ask about it several times.

I did come to understand that His answer to Paul also applied to me on some things [my grace is sufficient for thee]. He has given more answers over the years on different things and indications on this, not to confuse me, but to help me refocus on what He had for me as a part of the Body of Christ. You, apparently, have been led into a more direct involvement on this precise issue.

Because of my knowledge of German and Spanish, I once thought that I would or should become some kind of a missionary to nations where people speak those languages, but God was not in that. Back in the late 80's when I first moved from Wyoming to Oklahoma I specifically asked my first pastor here the question of what I should be doing for God. He really had no answer at all. It was not a long time before I finally discovered that he did not really know answers like that even though he was well versed in the Bible. Well versed in the Bible, but not in the Word of God. I say that carefully because I still see the man once in a while and I like him. He is one of those who never should have been a pastor IMHO.

Thanks again for your responses to my questions.

 

[justbyfaith]

A text without the context is a pretext for a prooftext.

Any time a prooftext is given, the person receiving the text is free to look at the context in their own Bible.

However, they would be making a mistake to attempt to make the prooftext say something different than what it says all by its lonesome; using the context.

I believe that every verse of scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth...and that the context of the verse is never going to nullify or even change the plain meaning of the verse...because there are no contradictions in the Bible.

 

[marks]

and EMPTY is a bad translation as I have proven numerous times in this thread.

Strong's:
κενόω kenóō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:—make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Thayer:
κενόω, κενῷ: (future κενώσω, 1 Corinthians 9:15 L text T Tr WH); 1 aorist ἐκενωσα; passive, perfect κεκνωμαι; 1 aorist ἐκενωθην;
1. to empty, make empty: ἑαυτόν ἐκένωσε, namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7 (see a fuller exposition of this passage in μορϕή).
2. to make void i. e. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect: passive, Romans 4:14; 1 Corinthians 1:17.
3. to make void i. e. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false: τό καύχημα, 1 Corinthians 9:15; passive 2 Corinthians 9:3. (Twice in the Sept. viz. Jeremiah 14:2; Jeremiah 15:9; often in Attic writings.)

G2758 - kenoō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

View attachment 11589


κενόω kenóō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:—make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Much love!

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

hope this helps !!!

Read the whole post.

 

[marks]

hope this helps !!!

You do realize, I hope, that Strong listed certain words because they were put into the KJV that way. Look at all the usages of the word, and then let's talk.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

You do realize, I hope, that Strong listed certain words because they were put into the KJV that way. Look at all the usages of the word, and then let's talk.

Much love!

And how did they translate Phil 2:7 ?

And here is a better lexicon

87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank. Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek English Lexicon

 

[marks]

Any time a prooftext is given, the person receiving the text is free to look at the context in their own Bible.

However, they would be making a mistake to attempt to make the prooftext say something different than what it says all by its lonesome, using the context.

I believe that every verse of scripture stands on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth...and that the context of the verse is never going to nullify or even change the plain meaning of the verse...because there are no contradictions in the Bible.

I agree completely.

That's why whatever view someone embraces, I think, needs to be in complete agreement with every last little word of Scripture.

Which is why I keep coming back to, if you claim Jesus was omniscient in His earthly ministry, they you have to be able to reconcile this with Jesus Himself saying that there was something He did not know.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

You do realize, I hope, that Strong listed certain words because they were put into the KJV that way. Look at all the usages of the word, and then let's talk.

Much love!

I have all the Greek Lexicons and Greek Grammars in my Library.

 

[ChristisGod]

I agree completely.

That's why whatever view someone embraces, I think, needs to be in complete agreement with every last little word of Scripture.

Which is why I keep coming back to, if you claim Jesus was omniscient will in His eartly ministry, they you have to be able to reconcile this with Jesus Himself saying that there was something He did not know.

Much love!

and Jesus is a man try studying the H.U.

Is Jesus not fully God because He slept, cried, ate, drank, thirsted, got tired etc........

No those are attributes of humanity which do not subtract from His Deity which you are doing with the day or hour by subtracting His Omniscience and the other Attributes that make God, God.

The Incarnation is not a SUBTRACTION of Deity(Divine Attributes) its an addition of humanity.

That is your error which is the kenosis heresy.

 

[marks]

And how did they translate Phil 2:7 ?

And here is a better lexicon

87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank. Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek English Lexicon

Look at the pattern of usage for the word. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.

Eliminating all priviledges or prerogatives . . . Like having all power, while living a life as a substitute for humanity?

Hebrews 5:6-9
6) As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Why is this important to understand?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have all the Greek Lexicons and Greek Grammars in my Library.

I'll be patient.

 

[ChristisGod]

Look at the pattern of usage for the word. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.

Eliminating all priviledges or prerogatives . . . Like having all power, while living a life as a substitute for humanity?

Hebrews 5:6-9
6) As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Why is this important to understand?

Much love!

And you are taking one possible meaning of a word kennao and building an entire doctrine around that one particular meaning of empty. That is eisegesis and reading your doctrine into the text of Phil 2:5-9. The context clearly says He was Equal with God and then you are saying He emptied His godhead- attributes that make Him God, that is a very poor method of hermenuetics and is exactly how the empty god doctrine of kenosis was developed in the first place.

BTW- you can ask me a 1000 more questions until you are blue in the face and I would NEVER see Phil 2:7 as you do Mark.

Its is a flat out denial of the Deity of Christ as a man walking this earth for 33 years. I will go to my grave defending the Truth that Son has ALWAYS had all the divine Attributes ( All the OMNI's)before creation, during His days on earth and for all eternity.

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

and Jesus is a man try studying the H.U.

Is Jesus not fully God because He slept, cried, ate, drank, thirsted, got tired etc........

No those are attributes of humanity which do not subtract from His Deity which you are doing with the day or hour by subtracting His Omniscience and the other Attributes that make God, God.

The Incarnation is not a SUBTRACTION of Deity(Divine Attributes) its an addition of humanity.

That is your error which is the kenosis heresy.

Interesting! God is God because He is omniscient?

I'm subtracting nothing. Nothing!

I'm pointing to the Scriptures, and making observations. In one place we're told He emptied Himself, in another place we're told about what that looked like, and in another place we're told that His life is to become ours. That we are to be conformed to Him.

Not as some little deity with omniscience and omnipotence and omnipresence. But as He was, a man who does what the Father does, and speaks what the Father speaks.

God is God because He is. I AM THAT I AM. Tell them I AM has sent you.

I agree . . . Incarnation is not subtraction, but then, I'm not arguing that Jesus lost His omniscience because He incarnated. Rather, He emptied Himself of His omniscience, to live His life as one of us. Overcoming the world, but not by His Own Divine Omnipotence.

"subtract from His Deity which you are doing"

Must I tell you again . . . I fully believe in Jesus' deity? Will you continue to make this false claim against me?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And you are taking one possible meaning of a word kennao and building an entire doctrine around that one particular meaning of empty.

Look at the pattern of usage of the word in Scripture. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.

Much love!