Another question for mormons.

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ReChoired

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The OP doesn’t make any sense, and doesn’t have anything to do with actual LDS Christian beliefs.
I notice that you, a standard member of the LDS (and not an Elder, Bishop, President, Prophet, and as such do not make decisions for the LDS faith in any way), continually say, "LDS Christian", but on the main website (LDS.org, now ChurchofJesusChrist.org), front page, I do not see this term used. In fact the word "Christian" doesn't even appear on the main page. The only time I could even find the phrase (using Google Advanced Search), "Latter-day Saints Christian", is on an article that asks (begs) the question, "Are Latter-day Saints Christian?" and then proceeds to snowball and syncretize. See here: "LDS Christian", "Latter-day Saints Christian" site:https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ - Google Search

The phrase "LDS-Christian sister" appears only once on the whole site, and written by none of the offices above, and nothing in official or "standard LDS Works" (BoM, BoA, DoC, PoGP, &c) and written by a woman (which according to LDS theology holds 0 weight, just ask J. Smith) about cooking. - "LDS Christian" site:https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ - Google Search

So what makes you think that LDS theology is Christian theology or Christianity? What proof do you offer? What evidence?
 
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ReChoired

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Is Joseph Smith God?
Well ... LDS theology teaches ... he will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a god, ... and that he is already eternal intelligence, and ... oh never mind.

"... Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power...

What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.. ..." - Joseph Smith; King Follett Sermon, Ensign, April 1971 - The King Follett Sermon

"... I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. ..." - Joseph Smith, (sometimes "Documentary History") History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408; Address of the Prophet - His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo. - Volume 6 Chapter 19 – BYU Studies
 
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farouk

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Yes, it may have been called a Bible for the first time through Constantine, but he didn't introduce the scriptures to the world. The letters and gospels existed among church members before Constantine. And those scriptures were copied and reproduced by hand and carried to the ends of the known world without any assistance from Constantine or from the church that grew from his meddling in religion. By the 4th century the church along with the scriptures that throughout the ensuing 1700 years or so gave it strength and a grounding in truth was well and truly established in Britain, throughout Europe, Asia, and before the end of the first millennium as far as China, Japan and the Philippines. So well established in fact that Genghis Khan's children ruled as Christians over large portions of the empire.
While the apostate state church grew in the west and through artiface and coercion incorporated the Apostolic churches under papal authority, there were solid pockets of sound Christian resistance throughout the world right up to the reformation. The Roman church has never been the only shop in town.
@Backlit It's Apostolic authorship, really, that marks New Testament books, apart from Luke's Acts of the Apostles and Luke's Gospel. We know the Apostles wrote other letters also but they are not all included in the Canon.
 

farouk

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That's all well and good speaking about what you believe the Father to be now, but what was He before???
@Backlit Father, Son and Holy Spirit are indeed eternal.

'Father... this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.' (John 17.1,3)

'through the eternal Spirit' (Hebrews 9.14).

'Unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever'. (Hebrews 1.8)
 

Brakelite

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@Backlit It's Apostolic authorship, really, that marks New Testament books, apart from Luke's Acts of the Apostles and Luke's Gospel. We know the Apostles wrote other letters also but they are not all included in the Canon.
I agree. And I think the part played by Constantine is over played in deciding what was canonical and what was not. The Bible he had put together was the first of many corruptions and was the foundation of many heresies and so called revised versions that continued the corruptions. He was a pagan dictator who murdered his family. While he may have continued the toleration given Christianity, he wasn't the first... That honor must go to the emperor before him.
 

farouk

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I agree. And I think the part played by Constantine is over played in deciding what was canonical and what was not. The Bible he had put together was the first of many corruptions and was the foundation of many heresies and so called revised versions that continued the corruptions. He was a pagan dictator who murdered his family. While he may have continued the toleration given Christianity, he wasn't the first... That honor must go to the emperor before him.
@Backlit It was really despite Constantine rather than because of him that we have the Canon of Scripture...
 
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jaybird

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Oh really?


You are more spiritual than Luther, Tyndale, Frith, John Milton, General Baptists, Anabaptists, &c and a whole host of others from the time of Jesus onward to modern day, and then more spiritual than the Apostles and Jesus, even Paul, and then more spiritual than Moses, David, Solomon, Asaph and the Prophets?

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

Others included Camillo Renato (1540)[109] Mátyás Dévai Bíró (1500–1545)[110] Michael Servetus (1511–1553)[111] Laelio Sozzini (1562)[112] Fausto Sozzini (1563)[113] the Polish Brethren (1565 onwards)[114] Dirk Philips (1504–1568)[115] Gregory Paul of Brzezin (1568)[116] the Socinians (1570–1800)[117] John Frith (1573)[118] George Schomann (1574)[119] Simon Budny (1576)[113]

Like Milton:

Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[126] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[127] 1627: Samuel Gardner[128] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[129] 1636: George Wither[130] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[131] 1624: Richard Overton[90] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[132] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[133] 1658: Samuel Richardson[134] 1608–1674: John Milton[135][136] 1588–1670: Thomas Hobbes[117] 1605–1682: Thomas Browne[137] 1622–1705: Henry Layton[138] 1702: William Coward[138] 1632–1704: John Locke[139] 1643–1727: Isaac Newton[140] 1676–1748: Pietro Giannone[141] 1751: William Kenrick[142] 1755: Edmund Law[143] 1759: Samuel Bourn[144] 1723–1791: Richard Price[145] 1718–1797: Peter Peckard[146] 1733–1804: Joseph Priestley[147] Francis Blackburne (1765)[148] (1765).

19th-20th century:

Others include: Millerites (from 1833),[154] Edward White (1846),[155] Christadelphians (from 1848),[156] Thomas Thayer (1855),[157] François Gaussen (d.1863),[158] Henry Constable (1873),[159] Louis Burnier (Waldensian, d.1878),[160] the Baptist Conditionalist Association (1878),[161] Cameron Mann (1888),[162] Emmanuel Pétavel-Olliff (1891), Miles Grant (1895)[163] George Gabriel Stokes (1897),[155]
The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought (1995), says "There is no concept of an immortal soul in the Old Testament, nor does the New Testament ever call the human soul immortal.",[190] Harper's Bible Dictionary (1st ed. 1985), says that 'For a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person; Hebrews were living bodies, they did not have bodies",[191] the New Bible Dictionary’ (3rd. ed. 1996), says "But to the Bible man is not a soul in a body but a body/soul unity",[192] the Encyclopedia of Judaism’ (2000), says "Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul",[193] the New Dictionary of Theology’ (2000), and "The notion of the soul as an independent force that animates human life but that can exist apart from the human body—either prior to conception and birth or subsequent to life and death—is the product only of later Judaism",[188] Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), says "Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, “soul” refers to the whole person",[194] the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says "Possibly Jn. 6:33 also includes an allusion to the general life-giving function. This teaching rules out all ideas of an emanation of the soul.",[195] and "The soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man",[196] Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (1987), says "Indeed, the salvation of the “immortal soul” has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical.",[197] the Encyclopedia of Christianity (2003), says "The Hebrew Bible does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as an immortal substance, and for the most part it envisions the dead as ghosts in Sheol, the dark, sleepy underworld",[198] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2005), says "there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife (see immortality)",[199] and the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (rev. ed. 2009), says "It is this essential soul-body oneness that provides the uniqueness of the biblical concept of the resurrection of the body as distinguished from the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul".[200][201]
The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul,[1][5] is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians,[202][203][204][205][206][207][208][209][210]- Christian mortalism

yes "ohh really" i have never heard of any Christian that thought when Jesus died His soul died and Jesus ceased to exist.
the only group i can thnk of that thought we came from nothing and returned to nothing, the exact opposite of what the bible says, were the Sadducee sect who we know little about and were not around very long.
 
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ChristisGod

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yes "ohh really" i have never heard of any Christian that thought when Jesus died His soul died and Jesus ceased to exist.
the only group i can thnk of that thought we came from nothing and returned to nothing, the exact opposite of what the bible says, were the Sadducee sect who we know little about and were not around very long.
that is a false teaching.
 

amadeus

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That is a non answer, and a mere surface quid pro quo, and even a non-sequitur to what I stated.

If I answered you (and it is easy to from scripture), what would it have to do with my previous statements?

As for Jesus having a place to lay his head, in the moment he made the statement, (hint) dealt with the heart, having been shut out of the heart of man, his own temple.
As if we could with the logic of men definitely approach more closely to each other. You don't understand or disagree with where I am coming from. Or perhaps both! In method and direction I was once traveling a similar road to yours. Sorry I cannot retrace that way without being led there by God. I would probably need a brain transplant before attempting that, but with God all things are possible. For the moment, no...
 

amadeus

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Again, you misunderstand the verse. It is speaking about languages and a gift of the Holy Ghost (God interpreting language to another language; God is still the interpreter there).
Sorry but I cannot accept you as the final interpreter here. In spite of your Bible studies and knowledge you have latched onto that as the only message God sent. From personal experience and from God I have seen something else. I won't elaborate here but probably in one of my testimonies on this forum I am certain I have at least touched on it before...
 
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Grailhunter

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Yes, it may have been called a Bible for the first time through Constantine, but he didn't introduce the scriptures to the world. The letters and gospels existed among church members before Constantine. And those scriptures were copied and reproduced by hand and carried to the ends of the known world without any assistance from Constantine or from the church that grew from his meddling in religion. By the 4th century the church along with the scriptures that throughout the ensuing 1700 years or so gave it strength and a grounding in truth was well and truly established in Britain, throughout Europe, Asia, and before the end of the first millennium as far as China, Japan and the Philippines. So well established in fact that Genghis Khan's children ruled as Christians over large portions of the empire.
While the apostate state church grew in the west and through artiface and coercion incorporated the Apostolic churches under papal authority, there were solid pockets of sound Christian resistance throughout the world right up to the reformation. The Roman church has never been the only shop in town.

And those scriptures were copied and reproduced by hand and carried to the ends of the known world without any assistance from Constantine or from the church that grew from his meddling in religion.
All true except a couple points.
If you look into it, you will find that the texts...ie letters to the churches were important to the churches and did not travel. No evidence of mass copying. If there was we would see some of the first century copies. Even from the 4th centuries with so many churches, we only have so many copies from that era.

And I like the meddling part. Christianity was being over run with Gnosticism and the Romans were killing tens of thousands a year.
If it was not for Emperor Constantine the fate of Christianity and the Bible did not look good. Then speculating on history is spitting into the wind. Who know if all those violent Christians did not defeat Hitler maybe it would be great today?
 

ReChoired

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Sorry but I cannot accept you as the final interpreter here.
Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20. I will repeat this until it gets into your brain. You deny what I say, that you may keep your own imaginary apriori about me. It's a strawman of your imagination. You are arguing against a phantom of 'me' that doesn't even exist. You're a spiritualist in this fashion.
 

amadeus

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Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20. I will repeat this until it gets into your brain. You deny what I say, that you may keep your own imaginary apriori about me. It's a strawman of your imagination. You are arguing against a phantom of 'me' that doesn't even exist. You're a spiritualist in this fashion.
Whatever I am, I am what God has purposed to the extent that I have allowed it. I don't know what you are except that which I have seen. some of which does not appear good. There is one major lesson that I see which you have not learned. I guess you are not ready for it yet.

Who but Jesus has overcome the world?

Help all of us dear Lord
!
 

ReChoired

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Who but Jesus has overcome the world?
Have ye never read?:

1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jn_5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

1Co_15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev_15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.​

Who, who?

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.​

See what they preach by their very lives (Matthew 24:14). A "witness", for a witness testifies, and these testified by their death, even the death of the cross. Dead to sin, satan and selfishness. What do they preach and live by? Revelation 14:6-12, which brings the harvest spoken of (Matthew 13:39; Revelation 14:13-20; Leviticus 23:39 ...).

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.​

Read, and begin to understand. If not, I do not know how much exact time you have left, but I know it is not long.

Sea of Glass - Will We Stand There?
https://archive.org/download/sea-of-glass/Sea of Glass.pptx

Choose soon.
 

ReChoired

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yes "ohh really" i have never heard of any Christian that thought when Jesus died His soul died and Jesus ceased to exist.
Why did you add that last part, which is a strawman of your own making about what I clearly presented? I never said "Jesus ceased to exist". You said that. I stated that Jesus died. The word "soul" in scripture, generally means person/being/creature. So when the Bible says:

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.​

Jesus' soul (person), his self/being, was in the tomb, the grave, asleep, even as the Angel stated was where He was:

Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
I didn't say, and never said, anywhere, at any time, that "Jesus ceased to exist". That was a figment of your own imagination that you somehow conjured against yourself in the place of me.

*hell in those texts is the grave. As the word 'hell' is old English, which means to bury, place in a hole, like 'helling potatoes'.

Go back, and read and listen to what was said.
 

jaybird

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Why did you add that last part, which is a strawman of your own making about what I clearly presented? I never said "Jesus ceased to exist". You said that. I stated that Jesus died. The word "soul" in scripture, generally means person/being/creature. So when the Bible says:

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.​

Jesus' soul (person), his self/being, was in the tomb, the grave, asleep, even as the Angel stated was where He was:

Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
I didn't say, and never said, anywhere, at any time, that "Jesus ceased to exist". That was a figment of your own imagination that you somehow conjured against yourself in the place of me.

*hell in those texts is the grave. As the word 'hell' is old English, which means to bury, place in a hole, like 'helling potatoes'.

Go back, and read and listen to what was said.

no, you never said Jesus ceased to exist, you implied that everyone outside the mormon church believed this with your "we believe J smith is not dead . . ." if this is not true then what you suggesting with this?
 

ReChoired

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Wouldn't it be amazing, if an actual LDS member, address the question of why their Book of Mormon contradicts every passage of scripture (KJB) on the matters of the state of the dead. For instance:

Book of Mormon, Alma 40:6-26:

"... 6 Now there must needs be a space betwixt the time of death and the time of the resurrection.

7 And now I would inquire what becometh of the asouls of men bfrom this time of death to the time appointed for the resurrection?

8 Now whether there is more than one atime appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.

9 Therefore, there is a time appointed unto men that they shall rise from the dead; and there is a space between the time of death and the resurrection. And now, concerning this space of time, what becometh of the souls of men is the thing which I have inquired diligently of the Lord to know; and this is the thing of which I do know.

10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God aknoweth all the btimes which are appointed unto man.

11 Now, concerning the astate of the soul between bdeath and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are ctaken dhome to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of ahappiness, which is called bparadise, a state of rest, a state of cpeace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the aspirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the bdevil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into couter darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the asouls of the bwicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, cfearful looking for the fiery dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the araising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.

16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a afirst bresurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their aconsignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth.

18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the areuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ.

19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass abefore the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.

20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his aascension into heaven.

21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a aspace between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in bhappiness or in cmisery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be dbrought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

22 Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.

23 The asoul shall be brestored to the cbody, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a dhair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and eperfect frame.

24 And now, my son, this is the restoration of which has been aspoken by the mouths of the prophets—

25 And then shall the arighteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.

26 But behold, an awful adeath cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and bno unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter ccup. ..." - Book Of Mormon, Alma Chapter 40; Verses 6-26 - Alma 40

Yet the Bible (KJB) knows no such thing as J. Smith (2 Corinthians 11:13,15) was given by his "angel" (2 Corinthians 11:14). Notice:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 14:16 For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
Job 14:17 My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
Job 14:18 And surely the mountain falling cometh to nought, and the rock is removed out of his place.
Job 14:19 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.
Job 14:20 Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away.
Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Mormonism is blatant spiritualism. It is occult to the extreme. It is one of satan's many "harlots" (Revelation 17). If the doctrine that Mormonism, J. Smith, espouse be true, why didn't the "angel" direct him to passages in scripture (KJB), but instead merely told him apart from scripture? Why didn't the "angel" say "It is written ...", "Thus saith the LORD (JEHOVAH:) God (Elohim) ...", but instead spake merely in it's own authority?