Another question for mormons.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,446
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Umm, who is preaching this:

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Consider that the word "angel" is a messenger sent from God, and that it applies to people on earth that are speaking these things (see Revelation 1; Galatians 4:14 (positively); 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (negatively)).
It is not me preaching it.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,446
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Truth was given to a "body", an organized body.

Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1Ti_3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Php_1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:​

This whole "rambo" scenario, where each individual does their own thing apart from Jesus' body, is itself a heresy.

God calls people out of Babylon (Revelation 14:8, 18:2), the Harlot (1 Corinthians 6:15-20; therefore "flee Babylon, flee fornication"), that they may join his "one" "body", having "one faith", which is a unified identifiable structure.

Rom_12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Eph_4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,​
What does all of this have to do with where I am or what I have posted?
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What does all of this have to do with where I am or what I have posted?
Read the citation of your response I quoted, and then responded to, to understand:

You stated:

"I am careful now concerning any program men call 'church' when it is often teaching people to quench the Spirit of God in favor of what they have decided is the truth. Of course they know, and think and say that they know, what the Truth is. Do they?"​

I responded.
 
Last edited:

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,446
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I noticed. This means you identify yourself outside of the saints (Rev. 14:12) that are preaching it.
This is your interpretation and conclusion for me? What is your purpose with this conversation? Is this or should it be a theological contest of some sort?

Do you decide which part, if any, a person is to have in the Body of Christ or even whether he is to be in the Body of Christ? Is not the Way up, down?

The lowest room is where I want to and strive to start each time I come together with God and then if He wills it, He lifts me up higher. How does one get into his place, if he is to have a place, in the Body of Christ? How high can a person be lifted up?
Give God the glory!
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is your interpretation
Remember what I have stated over and over again about "interpretation" (meaning 'private'). I do no such thing. Read Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20. If I tell you the truth, why then do you not believe me?
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,446
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Read the citation of your response I quoted, and then responded to understand:

You stated:

"I am careful now concerning any program men call 'church' when it is often teaching people to quench the Spirit of God in favor of what they have decided is the truth. Of course they know, and think and say that they know, what the Truth is. Do they?"​

I responded.
Really?

Does Jesus now have a place to lay his Head? Is every part of His Body ready and perfectly fitted into its proper place? Is every part of His Body fully submitted to the Head?
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,446
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Remember what I have stated over and over again about "interpretation" (meaning 'private'). I do no such thing. Read Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20. If I tell you the truth, why then do you not believe me?
You do! The question is whether or not what you are saying is your own or God's interpretation or a mixture of the two.

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:28
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Really?

Does Jesus now have a place to lay his Head? Is every part of His Body ready and perfectly fitted into its proper place? Is every part of His Body fully submitted to the Head?
That is a non answer, and a mere surface quid pro quo, and even a non-sequitur to what I stated.

If I answered you (and it is easy to from scripture), what would it have to do with my previous statements?

As for Jesus having a place to lay his head, in the moment he made the statement, (hint) dealt with the heart, having been shut out of the heart of man, his own temple.
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You do! The question is whether or not what you are saying is your own or God's interpretation or a mixture of the two.

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:28
Again, you misunderstand the verse. It is speaking about languages and a gift of the Holy Ghost (God interpreting language to another language; God is still the interpreter there).
 
  • Like
Reactions: TLHKAJ

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
@Jane_Doe22. @Grailhunter,

The book of mormon is said to be "another testament of Jesus Christ".

Now, I have not finished reading through the book of mormon so I do not have all of the information in it; but I have this question:

In Hebrews 9 it is written,

Heb 9:16, For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17, For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

My question is, who died to produce this third testament of Jesus Christ and when?

Did Jesus die a second time?

This would appear to me to be an irreconcilable contradiction between the Bible and the book of mormon; for it is written,

Rom 6:9, Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

If Christ died a second time then this scripture has been broken and we cannot trust any of the scriptures that are given to us.

However, Jesus testified that the scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:35)

If He did not die a second time then there cannot be another testament of Jesus Christ, per Hebrews 9:16-17.

no one can have revelation of Jesus unless they die? i have heard of far fetched theories before but this one is really out there.
does the OP realize that J Smith is in fact dead? unless the one receiving the revelation is some immortal non human being, everyone eventually dies which kind of blows up this goofy theory.
 

Jane_Doe22

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2018
5,241
3,442
113
116
Mid-west USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
no one can have revelation of Jesus unless they die? i have heard of far fetched theories before but this one is really out there.
does the OP realize that J Smith is in fact dead? unless the one receiving the revelation is some immortal non human being, everyone eventually dies which kind of blows up this goofy theory.
I can’t speak as to the OP.
But as an actual LDS Christian: of course Joseph Smith is dead.

That’s a different thing than a person receiving revelation from God.

Let me know if you want me to address anything.
 

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can’t speak as to the OP.
But as an actual LDS Christian: of course Joseph Smith is dead.

That’s a different thing than a person receiving revelation from God.

Let me know if you want me to address anything.
Actually, according to LDS theology (which teaches immortal & immoral soul/spirit theology), Joseph Smith is not dead, but very much alive in celestial glory with his other 'wives' - 'gettin' to' the next phase of blasphemy (think like Islam, and Jannah and the 'wives' therein).
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
I can’t speak as to the OP.
But as an actual LDS Christian: of course Joseph Smith is dead.

That’s a different thing than a person receiving revelation from God.

Let me know if you want me to address anything.

but according to the OP you cant have revelation unless you die? it doesnt make any sense.
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
Actually, according to LDS theology (which teaches immortal & immoral soul/spirit theology), Joseph Smith is not dead, but very much alive in celestial glory with his other 'wives' - 'gettin' to' the next phase of blasphemy.

i think most spiritual people believe the soul continues after death, when we use the phrase "die" we are referring to the physical body. Jesus "died" on the cross, no one believes his soul died.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
no one can have revelation of Jesus unless they die? i have heard of far fetched theories before but this one is really out there.
does the OP realize that J Smith is in fact dead? unless the one receiving the revelation is some immortal non human being, everyone eventually dies which kind of blows up this goofy theory.
Is Joseph Smith God? Did God die a 2nd or 3rd time?

The "another testament" of Jesus Christ is supposed to be a testament "of Jesus Christ"...in order for "another testament" to be ratified, there must be the death of the testator...and it is not "another testament of Joseph Smith" but "of Jesus Christ" therefore Jesus would have to die again in order to ratify it...which is impossible (Romans 6:9).

And I did not say that we have to die in order to receive a revelation of God...I said that Jesus would have to die a 2nd time in order for there to be "another testament" of Jesus Christ.

But then, maybe it really is "the first testament of Joseph Smith"...in which case the book of mormon is not about Jesus Christ at all...but about Joseph Smith's opinions about what the Bible really should be saying when we read it.
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,595
559
113
Is Joseph Smith God? Did God die a 2nd or 3rd time?

The "another testament" of Jesus Christ is supposed to be a testament "of Jesus Christ"...in order for "another testament" to be ratified, there must be the death of the testator...and it is not "another testament of Joseph Smith" but "of Jesus Christ" therefore Jesus would have to die again in order to ratify it...which is impossible (Romans 6:9).

And I did not say that we have to die in order to receive a revelation of God...I said that Jesus would have to die a 2nd time in order for there to be "another testament" of Jesus Christ.

But then, maybe it really is "the first testament of Joseph Smith"...in which case the book of mormon is not about Jesus Christ at all...but about Joseph Smith's opinions about what the Bible really should be saying when we read it.

ohh i get what your saying, each time Jesus speaks to someone, Jesus has to die, which is just as far fetched. John, Paul and Thomas all had revelation. and there goes your theory. i think your reading that passage wrong because your conclusion does not come close to holding water.
do you really want to live in a world where Jesus can not speak to believers? this is a really bad can of worms you opened. i dont think you thought this out to well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_Doe22

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,382
6,294
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The Bible we have is a collection of 1st century writings that Emperor Constantine commanded be bound in the first books we call Bibles....the 50 Bibles of Constantine. circa 330 AD....give or take

These writings are an abbreviated account of the first 65 years of Christianity...give or take.

The historical lineage of Constantine develops into the Roman Catholic Church and stands as the oldest Christian denomination.

On October 31st 1517 Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses on the door of the Schlosskirche, a Catholic castle church in Wittenberg, Germany, which served notice to the Catholic Church of his 95 objections to the Church. And the Protestants were on their way to redefining the Christian religion...from that perspective. But they could not agree so they ended up with over 30,000 perspectives and millions of independent Protestant perspectives.

In the spring of 1820 Joseph Smith had a vision while praying in a wooded area in Manchester, New York, called the Sacred Grove by Latter-day Saints. While praying, he is said to have seen a "pillar of light" and two images — identified as God and Jesus Christ — who told him that his sins were forgiven and that all churches were false.

Now as far as strict compliance to the Bible it can run from one end to the other. Some say any Christian religion that does not call itself "The Way" is a false religion. Some say that the Catholic religion is the only true Church. Some subscribe to the multitude of Protestant types of religions. Of course the Mormons are going to say their religion and book was given to them by...more or less God and Christ. If you are a fundamentalist, nothing outside the Bible can be believed. If you are a cessationist, then additional information would be impossible because they believe God retired after the Bible and gave no further information or instruction.

For me I have an open mind to such things...multi-denominational. Christ never said, "See ya in 10,000 years!" But for the next 10,000 years fundamentalists will believe His return will be soon. Regardless when Christ's return will be or how long it has been...I think everyday and every minute God is speaking to people and some of it can be new information or from a different perspective. And these words that God speaks to people, are not always in line with what men wrote in the Bible. As far as I can see, most everyone in the Bible believed they were living in the last days.... months... years...centuries and millenniums were not what they understood.
Yes, it may have been called a Bible for the first time through Constantine, but he didn't introduce the scriptures to the world. The letters and gospels existed among church members before Constantine. And those scriptures were copied and reproduced by hand and carried to the ends of the known world without any assistance from Constantine or from the church that grew from his meddling in religion. By the 4th century the church along with the scriptures that throughout the ensuing 1700 years or so gave it strength and a grounding in truth was well and truly established in Britain, throughout Europe, Asia, and before the end of the first millennium as far as China, Japan and the Philippines. So well established in fact that Genghis Khan's children ruled as Christians over large portions of the empire.
While the apostate state church grew in the west and through artiface and coercion incorporated the Apostolic churches under papal authority, there were solid pockets of sound Christian resistance throughout the world right up to the reformation. The Roman church has never been the only shop in town.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TLHKAJ

ReChoired

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2019
2,679
633
113
Region
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
i think most spiritual people believe the soul continues after death, when we use the phrase "die" we are referring to the physical body. Jesus "died" on the cross, no one believes his soul died.
Oh really?


You are more spiritual than Luther, Tyndale, Frith, John Milton, General Baptists, Anabaptists, &c and a whole host of others from the time of Jesus onward to modern day, and then more spiritual than the Apostles and Jesus, even Paul, and then more spiritual than Moses, David, Solomon, Asaph and the Prophets?

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

Others included Camillo Renato (1540)[109] Mátyás Dévai Bíró (1500–1545)[110] Michael Servetus (1511–1553)[111] Laelio Sozzini (1562)[112] Fausto Sozzini (1563)[113] the Polish Brethren (1565 onwards)[114] Dirk Philips (1504–1568)[115] Gregory Paul of Brzezin (1568)[116] the Socinians (1570–1800)[117] John Frith (1573)[118] George Schomann (1574)[119] Simon Budny (1576)[113]

Like Milton:

Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[126] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[127] 1627: Samuel Gardner[128] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[129] 1636: George Wither[130] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[131] 1624: Richard Overton[90] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[132] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[133] 1658: Samuel Richardson[134] 1608–1674: John Milton[135][136] 1588–1670: Thomas Hobbes[117] 1605–1682: Thomas Browne[137] 1622–1705: Henry Layton[138] 1702: William Coward[138] 1632–1704: John Locke[139] 1643–1727: Isaac Newton[140] 1676–1748: Pietro Giannone[141] 1751: William Kenrick[142] 1755: Edmund Law[143] 1759: Samuel Bourn[144] 1723–1791: Richard Price[145] 1718–1797: Peter Peckard[146] 1733–1804: Joseph Priestley[147] Francis Blackburne (1765)[148] (1765).

19th-20th century:

Others include: Millerites (from 1833),[154] Edward White (1846),[155] Christadelphians (from 1848),[156] Thomas Thayer (1855),[157] François Gaussen (d.1863),[158] Henry Constable (1873),[159] Louis Burnier (Waldensian, d.1878),[160] the Baptist Conditionalist Association (1878),[161] Cameron Mann (1888),[162] Emmanuel Pétavel-Olliff (1891), Miles Grant (1895)[163] George Gabriel Stokes (1897),[155]
The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought (1995), says "There is no concept of an immortal soul in the Old Testament, nor does the New Testament ever call the human soul immortal.",[190] Harper's Bible Dictionary (1st ed. 1985), says that 'For a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person; Hebrews were living bodies, they did not have bodies",[191] the New Bible Dictionary’ (3rd. ed. 1996), says "But to the Bible man is not a soul in a body but a body/soul unity",[192] the Encyclopedia of Judaism’ (2000), says "Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul",[193] the New Dictionary of Theology’ (2000), and "The notion of the soul as an independent force that animates human life but that can exist apart from the human body—either prior to conception and birth or subsequent to life and death—is the product only of later Judaism",[188] Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), says "Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, “soul” refers to the whole person",[194] the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says "Possibly Jn. 6:33 also includes an allusion to the general life-giving function. This teaching rules out all ideas of an emanation of the soul.",[195] and "The soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man",[196] Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (1987), says "Indeed, the salvation of the “immortal soul” has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical.",[197] the Encyclopedia of Christianity (2003), says "The Hebrew Bible does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as an immortal substance, and for the most part it envisions the dead as ghosts in Sheol, the dark, sleepy underworld",[198] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2005), says "there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife (see immortality)",[199] and the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (rev. ed. 2009), says "It is this essential soul-body oneness that provides the uniqueness of the biblical concept of the resurrection of the body as distinguished from the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul".[200][201]
The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul,[1][5] is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians,[202][203][204][205][206][207][208][209][210]- Christian mortalism