The Explanation Of Speaking In Tongues

[australia]

How do you interpret this scripture then?

For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. 1Cor. 14:2

Paul spoke multiple foreign languages. He was saying that foreign language speaking churchgoers (howbeit their spirituality) would be misunderstood if most didn't know what they were trying to say when wanting to speak with others in the church. Paul was also saying that, should one venture out where foreign languages were more abundant, one should find a suitable language interpreter if they wished to communicate properly with others there.

There's nothing new under the sun mate. If you want to congregate and communicate with foreigners at a non-english speaking church in their own country, make an effort to find an interpreter beforehand, otherwise remain silent or, just talk to yourself and God. (see 1Cor. 14:28)

 

[jiggyfly]

Paul spoke multiple foreign languages. He was saying that foreign language speaking churchgoers (howbeit their spirituality) would be misunderstood if most didn't know what they were trying to say when wanting to speak with others in the church. Paul was also saying that, should one venture out where foreign languages were more abundant, one should find a suitable language interpreter if they wished to communicate properly with others there.

Read the scripture again.

[font="tahoma][size="2"]

For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. 1Cor. 14:2

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[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]When I speak in tongues thats exactly who I am talking to and if someone needs to know what was said then let them pray for the interpretation. [font="tahoma][size="2"] [/size][/font]

 

[veteran]

How do you interpret this scripture then?

For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues,

[fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious. 1Cor. 14:2

Firstly, know that I'm not judging you if you do speak what some claim as the cloven tongue of Pentecost. But I believe Paul was not speaking about an "unknown tongue" in 1 Cor.12-14, but about a foreign languge of the world, since the word "unknown" is not there in the NT Greek. There's no such thing as an UNKNOWN tongue written anywhere in God's Word, for even when the cloven tongue was spoken on Pentecost it went out in all directions as known dialects of languages of the world.

I believe the true cloven tongue was given to spread The Gospel to the nations for to get around the limitation of God's confusing the one language at the tower of Babel. So if it is gibberish to oneself, and to all others present, that's not a Biblical sign of the true cloven tongue of Pentecost. However, if that person travels to a foreign nation without knowing their language and speaks, and those present each hear their own language, even the very dialect of language of where they were born, then that is the Biblical sign of the true cloven tongue.


1 Cor 12:28-31
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(KJV)

Notice Paul defines the tongues he was teaching about early on in 1 Cor.12:28 with "diversities of tongues". That's not any idea of an unknown tongue some claim, but the ability to speak in different known languages of the world. The word "gifts" there is Greek charisma, about working by The Holy Spirit. If an 'unknown' tongue is meant, then why did Paul define it as "diversities of tongues", which is about the gift of speaking known languages of the world?

And another thing Paul teaches there, not ALL Christ's Body has that ability of "diversities of tongues". Not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all work miracles, not all are healers.

So the false idea that if a believer doesn't speak the claimed 'unknown' tongue means they don't have the presence of The Holy Spirit is a teaching from man, and not from God. Those declaring the ability to speak in an unknown tongue as a requirement to have The Holy Spirit should raise a red flag among Christ's many membered Body.

Moreover, if those who speak an 'unknown' tongue claim The Holy Spirit directing them, then why do most of those have the false teaching that they are going to be whisked away by Christ prior to the great tribulation, especially when God is going to use the cloven tongue again during the tribulation? (check it out, our Lord Jesus gave it as one of the 7 signs of the end leading up to His return after the tribulation).

We are commanded to check the spirits, whether they are of God or not. And there are several things manifesting today that are claimed to of The Holy Spirit, yet cannot be backed up by God's Word. One is the Toronto laughing Church phenomenon. Another is the slain in the spirit idea of falling backwards, when the only examples of falling backwards by The Spirit in God's Word is about that happenning upon Christ's enemies when they came to the garden of Gethsemane and asked for our Lord Jesus (John 18).

So what I see, is that many who claim to speak the cloven tongue are listening to other doctrines that will put them in danger of being the five foolish virgins who had Oil in their lamps, but not a spare vessel of that Oil to go with their lamps (Matt.25). I've hit a brick wall many times with those who rely more on that claimed gift instead of getting understanding in God's Word about the signs of the end our Lord Jesus and His prophets and Apostles gave.

 

[jiggyfly]

Firstly, know that I'm not judging you if you do speak what some claim as the cloven tongue of Pentecost. But I believe Paul was not speaking about an "unknown tongue" in 1 Cor.12-14, but about a foreign languge of the world, since the word "unknown" is not there in the NT Greek. There's no such thing as an UNKNOWN tongue written anywhere in God's Word, for even when the cloven tongue was spoken on Pentecost it went out in all directions as known dialects of languages of the world.

I believe the true cloven tongue was given to spread The Gospel to the nations for to get around the limitation of God's confusing the one language at the tower of Babel. So if it is gibberish to oneself, and to all others present, that's not a Biblical sign of the true cloven tongue of Pentecost. However, if that person travels to a foreign nation without knowing their language and speaks, and those present each hear their own language, even the very dialect of language of where they were born, then that is the Biblical sign of the true cloven tongue.


1 Cor 12:28-31
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(KJV)

Notice Paul defines the tongues he was teaching about early on in 1 Cor.12:28 with "diversities of tongues". That's not any idea of an unknown tongue some claim, but the ability to speak in different known languages of the world. The word "gifts" there is Greek charisma, about working by The Holy Spirit. If an 'unknown' tongue is meant, then why did Paul define it as "diversities of tongues", which is about the gift of speaking known languages of the world?

And another thing Paul teaches there, not ALL Christ's Body has that ability of "diversities of tongues". Not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all work miracles, not all are healers.

So the false idea that if a believer doesn't speak the claimed 'unknown' tongue means they don't have the presence of The Holy Spirit is a teaching from man, and not from God. Those declaring the ability to speak in an unknown tongue as a requirement to have The Holy Spirit should raise a red flag among Christ's many membered Body.

Moreover, if those who speak an 'unknown' tongue claim The Holy Spirit directing them, then why do most of those have the false teaching that they are going to be whisked away by Christ prior to the great tribulation, especially when God is going to use the cloven tongue again during the tribulation? (check it out, our Lord Jesus gave it as one of the 7 signs of the end leading up to His return after the tribulation).

We are commanded to check the spirits, whether they are of God or not. And there are several things manifesting today that are claimed to of The Holy Spirit, yet cannot be backed up by God's Word. One is the Toronto laughing Church phenomenon. Another is the slain in the spirit idea of falling backwards, when the only examples of falling backwards by The Spirit in God's Word is about that happenning upon Christ's enemies when they came to the garden of Gethsemane and asked for our Lord Jesus (John 18).

So what I see, is that many who claim to speak the cloven tongue are listening to other doctrines that will put them in danger of being the five foolish virgins who had Oil in their lamps, but not a spare vessel of that Oil to go with their lamps (Matt.25). I've hit a brick wall many times with those who rely more on that claimed gift instead of getting understanding in God's Word about the signs of the end our Lord Jesus and His prophets and Apostles gave.

Can you explain 1Cor.14:2?

 

[TexUs]

Look at the entire context of 1 Corinthians 12.


What's the purpose of it? Edification of the body. This is what Paul is talking about. In fact he carries this idea clear into Chapter 14, read the end of the little intro to the section (Verse 5): "so that the church may be edified."



And again, Paul continues to drive this edification idea home:
"Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.


But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.










Now... Ask yourself: in America, in an English-speaking community: of what benefit to that body is tongues?
Absolutely no benefit. If there is no benefit to the body then one must question of what spirit the "gift" was given. I've been to churches that believe heavily in the gift of tongues and they'll offer to "teach" you. It's not a gift of the Holy Spirit if it's taught now, is it?
Speaking to this example, while not as bad in all churches that do this, they all speak in big tongues-speaking sessions that I've seen. Now... How Biblical is that for everyone IN the church to speak in tongues? Let's look:
"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"
Once more, Paul continues to drive the edification idea home. Speaking in tongues is not for the body of Christ's benefit.
People in America, in an English speaking community, that are all teaching each other to speak in tongues as means to "fit in" so to speak... Not only does that contradict the Bible on the count of it being only for the body (and not ministry), it contradicts it again when it's not edifying ANYONE.


An example of a true gift of speaking in tongues, a real world example I know about. A pastor visits a third world country on a mission trip. He's asked to preach to the natives, and while he knows scant little of the language, agrees to do so. He speaks an hour on the topic and when he's done, has no idea how he just spoke what he spoke to them in their tongue.
THAT is of benefit to the body. THAT is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. THAT was used in ministry to unbelievers.

 

[242006]

Debunking 'tongues' -

1. There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Word of God.

The clause 'spiritual gifts' cannot be found in the Bible manuscripts. Likewise, there is no such thing as 'gifts given by the Holy Spirit'. This concept was developed by the Roman Catholic Church in effort to control the masses. It passed on into Protestantism and th Anglican church through the bastardization of 1 Cor. 12:1.

Hence, any church, who teaches that 'tongues' is a 'spritual gift', is not teaching God's Word; but, said churches are furthering a tradition of man instead.

2. The 'tongues' of Acts 2 is not the same as the 'tongues' of 1 Cor. 12, 14.

The Acts 2 'tongues' was the 'cloven' [dividing] language, which was heard and understand by all in their native language and native dialect, including the speaker thereof. It was a hearing miracle. The 'tongues' of 1 Cor. 12, 14, which requires an interpreter, cannot possibly be the same.

Hence, any church, who teaches that the Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 12, 14 'tongues' are one and the same, are teaching traditions of man, and not the Word of God.

3. 'Gibberish' is not 'tongues' of the Bible.

By definition, 'tongues' is a 'language'. A 'language', by its very nature, is a form of communication from the issuer to the receiver. Hence, to issue out a 'language' one has to know what he/she is communicating. If it takes a so-called 'interpreter' to inform the speaker what the speaker stated, then it is clear that a 'language' was never spoken to begin with. It was mere gibberish. The so-called interpreter hears gibberish as well.

Hence, any church, who promotes gibberish with interpretation by another, is promoting a tradition of man -- not the Word of God.

****************************

While keeping these 3 truths in mind, a Christian can sort out those false churches, who teach tradition traditions of man regarding 'tongues'.

 

[TexUs]

The clause 'spiritual gifts' cannot be found in the Bible manuscripts. Likewise, there is no such thing as 'gifts given by the Holy Spirit'. This concept was developed by the Roman Catholic Church in effort to control the masses. It passed on into Protestantism and th Anglican church through the bastardization of 1 Cor. 12:1.

I disagree with this because it very clearly says spiritual gifts in 12:1.
12:6 makes it clear the Spirit empowers the gifts.
12:8 makes it clear they are given through the Spirit.
etc
etc

The Acts 2 'tongues' was the 'cloven' [dividing] language, which was heard and understand by all in their native language and native dialect, including the speaker thereof. It was a hearing miracle. The 'tongues' of 1 Cor. 12, 14, which requires an interpreter, cannot possibly be the same.

This I do agree with.


I also agreed with the last point.

 

[242006]

I disagree with this because it very clearly says spiritual gifts in 12:1.
12:6 makes it clear the Spirit empowers the gifts.
12:8 makes it clear they are given through the Spirit.
etc
etc

Of course, it is your right to disagree. However, you do so in error.

The subject of 1 Cor. 12 is 'spiritual brethren' -- not 'spiritual gifts'. The word 'gifts' was inappropriately added by the translators in 12:1 as it was not in the Word of God itself [the greek manuscripts].

From the KJV with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance numbering -

1Co 12:1​

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​

​

NowG1161 concerningG4012 spiritualG4152 gifts, brethren,G80 I wouldG2309 notG3756 have youG5209 ignorant.G50


​

In the KJV, key words that were added to the rendering are italicized, which means that the word does not exist in the Bible manuscripts. Furthermore, if the word is actually in the manuscripts, it is assigned a Strong's Concordance number. As one can see, there is no number associated with the rendering 'gifts'.

Clearly, 'gifts' does not exist in the Word of God in 12:1.

 

[TexUs]

Yes, I agree gifts is not there, however by context it's inferred. You didn't address the other examples.

12:4 the Greek word Charisma is used. You've got to look at the context to understand how it's used but suffice it to say "gift" makes the most logical sense. It is not a literal word used for gift though- you'd be right. It's an idea of thankfulness, gratitude, and gift is derived from these. (As the formers wouldn't make sense in this passage).

But as for what I quoted... If you don't believe gifts are being spoken of, what sense would 12:8, etc, make??? What, exactly, do you think is being given away by and through the Spirit?

It's clear in v7-8 the Spirit is doing the empowering and giving.

 

[veteran]

Can you explain 1Cor.14:2?

Like I said before, Paul defines what tongues he was talking about early in the 1 Cor.12-13 chapters when he proclaimed that charity and to prophesy (teach under revelation by The Holy Spirit) was above the idea of tongues (languages). Charity is the main thing...

1 Cor 13:8
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(KJV)

1 Cor 12:28
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(KJV)


1 Cor 14:1-19
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Paul continues the same subject he was speaking of from the 12th chapter. The tongues he was talking about mean known languages of the world.


2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

If you speak in a foreign language none present can understand, then only God will understand what is said. It offers no edification to those present, since they can't understand what's being said. Paul contrasts that to prophesying with understanding, which immediately reveals he was not talking about gibberish, but a known language those present do understand. Otherwise, how would those present be edified, exhorted, and comforted? So Paul's idea of prophesying is about teaching through revelation by The Holy Spirit in a known language people can understand. The word "unknown" there is not present in the NT Greek.


5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Notice the KJV translators rendered the word "tongues" as plural. The true cloven tongue of Pentecost is a single tongue that is cloven, which means divided into all languages of the world. Thus Paul is speaking about the idea of known languages, and not the cloven tongue. Paul will show this even more so later in this chapter when he declared he spoke in more tongues than they. Paul was fluent in several languages, being a scholar. He taught the Gentiles in the Konine Greek dialect, the Greek dialect of the people.


7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Unless we speak by our physical tongue in our mouths "words easy to be understood", how shall anyone present understand? Otherwise you'd be speaking in the air with those present. God would understand it, but not those present. Even with Christ's Apostles on Pentecost, they understood what words they were speaking by the cloven tongue.

There's nothing written in Acts 2 that shows what the Apostles heard coming out of their own mouths was gibberish. Most likely they spoke their own dialect of their own language with understanding, but it went out into all the other dialects and languages of those present.

That is how I have felt The Holy Spirit speaking through myself at times, The Spirit giving me the words to say while I easily understood, and so did all those present around me understand. I also have faith that if I'm ever in a situation like Pentecost speaking to an audience where I don't speak their language, through prayer The Holy Spirit will cause them to hear in their own languages.


10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

What are "voices in the world" Paul speaks of? Languages of the world. Paul uses the idea of barbarian speech, which is not about the cloven tongue which everyone understands when they hear per Acts 2, but about a language not understood. Again, strike out the word "unknown", it's not in the Greek NT manuscripts.


18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
(KJV)

Paul spoke several languages. He was not talking about some ability to manifest the cloven tongue more than anyone else. That right there should also show you he was not talking about the cloven tongue of Pentecost.

 

[jiggyfly]

Like I said before, Paul defines what tongues he was talking about early in the 1 Cor.12-13 chapters when he proclaimed that charity and to prophesy (teach under revelation by The Holy Spirit) was above the idea of tongues (languages). Charity is the main thing...


Paul continues the same subject he was speaking of from the 12th chapter. The tongues he was talking about mean known languages of the world.


2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Why not deal with verse two instead of avoiding it? If no man understands him then it must be as Paul says, an unknown language.

 

[242006]

Yes, I agree gifts is not there, however by context it's inferred.

No -- it is not!! The topic of 1 Cor. 12 is 'spiritual brethren' [v. 1]. The remainder of the chapter is properly interpreted with the context of 'spritual brethren' in mind. When one keeps the topic in mind, there is no inferrence that 'spiritual gifts' exist. After all, the Holy Spirit, Itself, is a gift from God [Acts 1:4-5].

You didn't address the other examples.

True -- I purposely didn't address the other scriptures. The first order of business was to see if you were going to live in denial of 1 Cor. 12:1. If you chose to insist that 'gifts' exists in 12:1, there is no point in addressing the rest. Now that I can see that you are not going to live in denial regarding 12:1, I can address the remainder of your claim.

12:4 the Greek word Charisma is used. You've got to look at the context to understand how it's used but suffice it to say "gift" makes the most logical sense. It is not a literal word used for gift though- you'd be right. It's an idea of thankfulness, gratitude, and gift is derived from these. (As the formers wouldn't make sense in this passage).

But as for what I quoted... If you don't believe gifts are being spoken of, what sense would 12:8, etc, make??? What, exactly, do you think is being given away by and through the Spirit?

It's clear in v7-8 the Spirit is doing the empowering and giving.

I have already covered most, if not all, of your claims in this topic -

http://www.christian...ome-christians/

If you will take the time to peruse my writings there, you should have most, if not all, of your answers.

I am not stating that gifts [charisma] do not exist. It is just a matter of from whom the gifts are given and when they are given. As you probably already know, there are entire religions premised upon the [false] concept that they are given special dispensation [spiritual gifts] upon becoming a true believer in Christ. By way of debunking 'spritual gifs', one can see that such religions are false. In fact, some are giving heed to doctrines [tongues and rapture] of devils [1 Tim. 4:1].

To understand charisma, it is important to know who gives them. The gifts [charisma] are given by God [Rom. 11:29] -- not the Holy Spirit. Naturally, those caught up in those false religions, which tout 'spiritual gifts', will attempt every means to justify their false religion. Contradictions arise in attempting to justify the false religion of 'spiritual gifts' -

1. Acts 1:4-5 These same people will argue that the Holy Spirit is a 'separate and equal' member of the Godhead [Trinity theory]. Yet, in this citation, one can see that the Holy Spirit is a promise from God, which, by the very nature of 'promise', means that God is in control thereof the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is simply God's spirit. If the Holy Spirit is owned by God and the gifts [charisma] are given by God, the Holy Spirit, as 'separate and equal', is ill-positioned to 'give' that which the Holy Spirit does not possess to give. Hence, the claim that the Holy Spirit 'gives' gifts cannot be justified at all.

2. The meaning of "of" in 1 Cor. 12:7 The word 'of' does not exist in the Bible manuscripts in this scripture. It is inserted as a means to relate the two nouns, 'manifestations' and 'Spirit', to each other. In other words, it is a connective preposition to make the scripture read intelligibly in English. Those religions, which tout spiritual gifts, will take this word 'of' to mean 'out from' or 'given by'. This is incorrect reasoning. There is a Greek word, which means 'out from' or 'given by'. It is used in Rom. 1:3. Hence, if Paul intended to say that the manifestations 'out from' the Holy Spirit, the Greek word for 'out from' would exist in the manuscripts.

3. Rom. 11:29 v. 1 Cor. 12:7 In the former, the gifts are given "without repentance" [without any regret]. In the latter, the purpose is stated "to profit withal". If the Holy Spirit was the dispenser of God's gifts, then the purpose should have been, likewise, 'without repentance' in 1 Cor. 12:7 as God intended in Rom. 11:29.

Next, it is important to know who receives gifts [charisma]. Those religions that tout spiritual gifts claim that only 'true' believers receive gifts. This cannot be supported by scripture or logic. In 12:7, the scriptures state "every man" as the recipient -- not just true believers. Logic also dictates that all receive the gifts, since the gifts include many functions as identified in 12:28. If non-Christians did not receive gifts, non-christians would not have the ability to form governments, heal the sick, teach, know languages, etc..

Next, if not 'spiritual gifts', then what are the 'gifts' [charismata]. As one can see in 12:28, they are ordinary skills and abilities that all of mankind possess.

Last, when does one receive gifts. In Rom. 11:29, 'gifts' is included with 'calling of God'. When is the calling of God given?? See Jer. 1:5. The 'calling of God' comes prior to birth and is based upon foreknowledge. See Rom. 11:2. One receives their gifts at birth.

There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts'.

Regarding 12:8, the key word is 'by', which in Greek is -
G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'

A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to channel one's gifts to give one wisdom and/or knowledge. It is not stating that the Holy Spirit gives out the gifts. Keeping in mind the topic [spiritual brethren], we see the tenor for this scripture covered in 12:2-3. Absent the work of the Holy Spirit, they would be worshipping dumb idols and cursing Jesus. V. 8-10 should be viewed in this same context. V. 11 summarizes that it is the work of the Holy Spirit -- not gifts given by the Holy Spirit.

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[TexUs]

By way of debunking 'spritual gifs', one can see that such religions are false.

That's your reason for this?
I can debunk it without the need to eliminate spiritual gifts.

The gifts [charisma] are given by God [Rom. 11:29] -- not the Holy Spirit.

Given by God "through the Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:8

The Holy Spirit is simply God's spirit.

12:11 "as He wills" refers to the Spirit as a personal figure, with a will, a He, not as just some force.

I can't get on board with your rationale on that.

3. Rom. 11:29 v. 1 Cor. 12:7 In the former, the gifts are given "without repentance" [without any regret]. In the latter, the purpose is stated "to profit withal". If the Holy Spirit was the dispenser of God's gifts, then the purpose should have been, likewise, 'without repentance' in 1 Cor. 12:7 as God intended in Rom. 11:29.

I think it's a very long stretch to consider Romans 11:29 as speaking of Spiritual gifts- this comparison is moot.
(And I didn't consider "of" to be as important as you must do, hence why I really don't feel the need to comment on it)

In 12:7, the scriptures state "every man" as the recipient -- not just true believers. Logic also dictates that all receive the gifts, since the gifts include many functions as identified in 12:28. If non-Christians did not receive gifts, non-christians would not have the ability to form governments, heal the sick, teach, know languages, etc..

What happened to "spiritual brethren"? You only apply that when you feel like it?
Paul calls them brothers, this is addressed to brothers (to the church). Immediately after this he continues his letter with unity of the body of Christ.
It's an abuse of Scripture to yank out all the context to support this being applicable to all people.

Next, if not 'spiritual gifts', then what are the 'gifts' [charismata]. As one can see in 12:28, they are ordinary skills and abilities that all of mankind possess.

What about faith? How do you riddle a non-believer having faith?
Or the ability for a non-believer to distinguish between light and dark? Flies in the face of all spiritually discerned state of non believers.


I feel like you're trying to destroy spiritual gifts to destroy the abuses of them and honestly I think you can do that without destroying spiritual gifts- and still maintain the context of Scripture, which you necessarily must avoid to apply this to all people.

 

[veteran]

Why not deal with verse two instead of avoiding it? If no man understands him then it must be as Paul says, an unknown language.

If you think I avoided that verse, then maybe you ought to try actually reading what I covered, for I covered the whole chapter with that verse. Paul defined what tongues he was speaking of in 1 Cor.12 as "diversities of tongues". He wasn't talking about an 'unknown' tongue because that word 'unknown' is not even in the NT Greek. The KJV translators added that word unknown (when a Strong's number is 9999 it means an added word by translators).

Further, in that 1 Cor.14:2 verse Paul was not talking about an unknown tongue that no man on earth anywhere can understand, but about language where no one present hearing it can understand. That very much applies to languages of the world foreign to one's language of birth. It is not about some UNKNOWN tongue no one can understand.


Note other Scripture examples of HOW The Holy Spirit manifested the cloven tongue...

Acts 10:45-47
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(KJV)

How did Peter recognize they magnified God unless Peter heard them speak in his own language of birth? Obviously, Peter did not hear gibberish.


Acts 19:6
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(KJV)

With these among Paul, did Paul understand what they were saying by those tongues? Yes, for that's what prophesying is about, giving understanding under revelation by The Holy Spirit, which is also what happenned on Pentecost when the Apostles spoke the cloven tongue. It was not gibberish. It was understood as languages of the world, even as one's own dialect of their language of the area they were born (see the Greek of Acts 2).


Acts 11:15-16
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

There's a third Scripture witness that when the true cloven tongue manifested after Pentecost, it still manifested how it did with Christ's Apostles at the beginning per Acts 2. And how did it manifest at the beginning on Pentecost?...

Acts 2:4-8
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
(KJV)

Like Paul says in 1 Cor.14:33, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

You see, I very much believe in the existence of the cloven tongue by The Holy Spirit. But I have to listen to my LORD Jesus in what He revealed in His Word as to HOW it manifests through His servants. And I don't see anywhere in Scripture where it showed it manifested as no known language of the world.

Yet I still give some sway to those who claim the cloven tongue but for them it comes out as gibberish no one present can understand, simply because I allow possibility that person may travel somewhere that it will manifest according to Scripture as dialects of languages. The main reason I'm careful to regard the Scripture examples is because of how Christ and His Apostles warned us about false signs especially in the endtimes (like with the many antichrists working).

You do recall how the false prophets in Moses' day mimicked some of the signs God did through Moses, and what Paul warned in 2 Cor.11 about Satan disguising himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness? Paul warned about the working of "another spirit", "another Jesus", and "another gospel" in that message. That's to show us in the last days there is a mimicking to occur and not to be deceived by it. And we can see that by some of the signs of those who claim presence of The Holy Spirit, like the Toronto laughing church phenomena, which is confusion.

 

[jiggyfly]

Ok Vet, throw out the "unknown" it still doesn't change what Paul said, the one who speaks in tongues is not speaking to man but rather he is speaking to God by the HolySpirit.

 

[242006]

That's your reason for this?
I can debunk it without the need to eliminate spiritual gifts.

Good for you! Nonetheless, spiritual gifts is not inferred in 1 Cor. 12.

Given by God "through the Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:8

It doesn't state that at all. The context for 12:8 is given in 12:7 -

1Co 12:7​

​

​

​

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

​

The word 'maifestation' in Strong's -

G5321
​

φανερωσις
phanerōsis
fan-er'-o-sis

From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation.


​

Its etymology comes from the verb phaneroo [G5319], which means -

G5319
​

φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o

From G5318; to render apparent (literally or figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare, (make) manifest (forth), shew (self).

​

From 12:2-3, Paul teaches that it is the actual work of the Holy Spirit which makes the difference between one worshipping Christ or worshipping the dumb idols of the Gentiles. 12:7 is making the same statement. The word 'manifestation' means the 'exhibition' or readily apparent expression of the Holy Spirit.

Hence, with that context in mind, 12:8-10 is easily understood as the detailed workings of the Holy Spirit -- not the disbursement of God's gifts. Nothing in the language of 12:8 changes the subject/context given in 12:7 -

1Co 12:8​

​

​

​

ForG1063 to oneG3739 G3303 is givenG1325 byG1223 theG3588 SpiritG4151 the wordG3056 of wisdom;G4678 to(G1161) anotherG243 the wordG3056 of knowledgeG1108 byG2596 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151


​

Notice the two renderings of 'by' are different words. Irrespective of meaning, the fact that the two are not the same dispels any notion that both 'wisdom' and 'knowledge' are distributed by the Holy Spirit via the action verb 'given'. If 'given' meant 'distributed [as you contend], then both words 'by' would have to be the same. I already addressed the first word 'by' [G1223] in my prior post. It means 'the act of channelling'. In other words, the gifts already exist to which the Holy Spirit utilizes. As for the second word 'given' -

​

G1325
δίδωμι
didōmi
did'-o-mee

A prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternate in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection): - adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.

​

There is nothing therein that locks the word 'given' into the literal distribution. Again, from Rom. 11:29, the gifts are God's to give -- not the Holy Spirit's. And, from 12:7, the context is the working of the Holy Spirit is that which profits. Hence, in 12:8-10, the word 'given' is an implied giving as it is the Holy Spirit that makes one appear to have wisdom and knowledge. The gift, itself, is the Holy Spirit. The gifts [charisma], which all [christian and non-christian] have, already exist. Absent the Holy Spirit, we would be worshipping dumb idols [12:2-3].

12:11 "as He wills" refers to the Spirit as a personal figure, with a will, a He, not as just some force.

It is a mistranslation to render it "as He wills". There is nothing in the Bible manuscripts which warrants the translator - inserted 'He' for deity. It should have been rendered "as are willing".

I can't get on board with your rationale on that.

Maybe, now you can.

I think it's a very long stretch to consider Romans 11:29 as speaking of Spiritual gifts- this comparison is moot.
(And I didn't consider "of" to be as important as you must do, hence why I really don't feel the need to comment on it)

See 2 Tim. 3:16.

In Rom. 11:29, the word 'gifts' is the same 'gifts' as in 1 Cor. 12 -- the charismata. Ignoring the Word of God, especially when it proves you in error, is not recommended.

What happened to "spiritual brethren"? You only apply that when you feel like it?
Paul calls them brothers, this is addressed to brothers (to the church). Immediately after this he continues his letter with unity of the body of Christ.
It's an abuse of Scripture to yank out all the context to support this being applicable to all people.

You must be hallucinating or, at best, are disingenuos! I have properly interpreted the entire chapter in the context of 'spiritual brethren'. Who do you think the body of Christ is comprised of if not 'spiritual brethren'??

It is you that is abusing scripture by inventing the context of 'spritual gifts' when the topic is 'spiritual brethren'.

What about faith? How do you riddle a non-believer having faith?
Or the ability for a non-believer to distinguish between light and dark? Flies in the face of all spiritually discerned state of non believers.

Faith comes into play in 12:11. The Holy Spirit works in those that 'are willing'.

A non-believer is able to distinguish between light and dark -- they receive the charismata as well. See Rom. 11:29.

I feel like you're trying to destroy spiritual gifts to destroy the abuses of them and honestly I think you can do that without destroying spiritual gifts- and still maintain the context of Scripture, which you necessarily must avoid to apply this to all people.

Nope -- just teaching Bible. The concept of spiritual gifts is a tradition of man. It does not exist in the Word of God. I try to destroy traditions of man [Mar. 7:13].

Of course, the false teaching of 'spritual gifts' is abusive -- just as are most traditions of man.

 

[[email protected]]

Ok Vet, throw out the "unknown" it still doesn't change what Paul said, the one who speaks in tongues is not speaking to man but rather he is speaking to God by the HolySpirit.

Lots of chatter and bickering here about something that is documented in scripture and testified to in the church.

THE TRUTH, is that a lot of spiritually dead churchy folks are afraid to venture too far out into the waters of faith.
They are like the navigators in Columbus' day, fearful of illusory monsters in the mist and that they will fall off the edges of the planet if they go too far.
Therefore we are treated to a veritable shower of scriptural fragments justifying cowardice.

Have I ever spoken in tongues?
yes.

Are there abuses or false utterances, even fake efforts to imitate the real deal?
yes. So what? Folks are having a good time in worship. Who do you think you are to tell them quit?
Somebody else goes to church and has a priest give them a wafer which they believe is the body of Christ.
Did I have a cookie too? Absolutely and I'm here to tell you that some heavy spiritual things can happen then.
So what? Folks are having a good time in worship. Who do you think you are to tell them quit?

I can say one thing with complete certainty and conviction; that there is a whole lot more spiritual things going on in the world than any of us can conceive of.
Anybody who sits back on their little snippets of scripture and uses them to dictate to the rest of us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not true, or not for us, or whatever, is guilty of the pretension of spiritual pride.

If they want to sit back in a dark corner of their mind and miss the heavenly parade, let them. I for one don't want to miss a minute.

Praise God. Shunda shunda blah blah blah. Please pass the cookies.....whatever it takes.

I'll take it all, thank you very much.

 

[Anastacia]

The gift of tongues were for a sign, as prophesied about in the Old Testament (Isaiah 28:11), and fulfilled in the New Testament, as confirmed by Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:2).

The sign would be for the Jews, and to show that the Gentiles are included in salvation (Acts 10:44-48).

Those speaking in tongues were understood by hearers who understood the tongues speaking as foreign languages (Acts 2:6). The word ‘tongues’ is even used as meaning ‘foreign languages’ (Acts 2:11).

Those speaking in tongues could declare the wonders of God (Acts 2:11). They could also praise God while speaking in tongues (Acts 10:46). They speak mysteries (1 Corinthians 14:2). Not every one spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5). If someone spoke in tongues, then they should pray that they should also interpret what they say, for the benefit of others (1 Corinthians 14:13). Even when praying while speaking in tongues, the speaker, for himself also, should interpret what he is saying so that it is fruitful for his mind (1 Corinthians 14:14). If there is no interpreter in church, then the speaker should keep quiet and speak to himself and God (1 Corinthians 14:28).

Speaking in tongues are also believed by many to be the language of angels (1 Corinthians 13:1), but angels are ministering spirits to those who will inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:14). And since angels are ministering spirits to those who will inherit salvation, then the angels will need to know earthly languages--- all the foreign languages of the world.

So from the scriptures we see that tongue speaking was for a sign, the sign was given. Those who spoke in tongues spoke mysteries, the mysteries of the gospel has been given (Ephesians 6:19). And scripture tells us that tongues will cease (1 Corinthians 13:8).

Charismatics claim that there are two different kinds of tongues...one being a personal prayer language to God. Charismatics developed their false information of a separate tongues for private prayer use because of their misunderstanding the scriptures about when no one is around who understands what they are saying. Again, they misunderstand what the Bible says. They seem to discount completely that if they don't interpret what they say, even when they pray in tongues to themselves and God only.....then their mind is fruitless. Surely a fruitless mind is not something one should be aiming for in personal prayer times.

Charismatics also falsely use the scripture Romans 8:26. Romans 8:26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
But speaking in tongues is "words" it is "speaking" and not groaning. This scripture is about when all we can do is groan---then the Spirit intercedes for us to God.

 

[rockytopva]

The doctrine of the Pentecostal Holiness Church I attend is a Methodist one. Which added tongues to the experience of the 'witness of the Spirit.'


Seven Steps to the shekinah glory...

***The Outside Temple***

1. Outer Fate - Justification
2. Alter - Salvation
3. Laver - Sanctification (Outward)

***The Inside Temple***

4. The Table of Shewbread - The word of God
5. The Lampstand - The Spiritual Light (walking in the spirit)
6. The Alter of Golden Incense - Praise and prayer

*** The Shekinah Glory***

7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit



My people were richly Pentecostal in that you were aware that they had the goods of the inside temple as well as the tongues. Sanctification to them gave you a sweet spirit and prepared one for the baptism. Smith Wigglesworth's wife knew Smith had gotten sanctified when he quit complaining about the food. Your cat will know when you get sanctified as you will rub up to him rather than kick him. William Seymour was the guy credited to bringing back the experience of tongues... In which he said... “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.” -William Seymour

So I as a member of a Pentecostal Holiness church will stress here that it is important that you get the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues from the Baptizer... Jesus Christ... It will be as living waters welling up within you that comes out as tongues. And if this is something of the Holy Ghost it will also be decent and in order. And since you got Sanctified before you got this blessing makes it all the more the spiritual experience.

 

[Anastacia]

So I as a member of a Pentecostal Holiness church will stress here that it is important that you get the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues from the Baptizer... Jesus Christ... It will be as living waters welling up within you that comes out as tongues. And if this is something of the Holy Ghost it will also be decent and in order. And since you got Sanctified before you got this blessing makes it all the more the spiritual experience.

Your denomination teaches "you get the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues from the Baptizer." But in the Bible, the Gentiles got the evidence of speaking in tongues when they were saved---it was evidence to the JEWS that Gentiles were included in God's salvation (See Acts 10:48). Jews once held the belief that Gentiles were unclean, so it was important that it be known that Gentiles were included in God's salvation, Gentiles also speaking in tongues was this evidence.

NOT everyone had the gift of speaking in tongues, even though they were baptized in the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 14:5). A denomination that teaches a person reaches a level of sanctification, then receives the Holy Spirit, as you have stated, is not teaching what is scriptural


.