Denominations that teach their nowadays speaking in tongues, their teaching says speaking in tongues is a sign for the believer. But the Bible says that tongues are a sign not for the believer, but for the unbeliever (see 1 Corinthians 14:22). The reason biblical speaking in tongues were a sign to the unbeliever, is because unbelievers from different languages could hear the gospel from people who do not naturally know that language. Do you see how that is a sign to unbelievers? Again, nowadays tongue speakers do not teach what is scriptural.
The Explanation Of Speaking In Tongues
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One reason why the devil hates tongues is because he cannot figure out what the pray-er is pray-ing. Like Jezebel in the old testament the devil likes to have a choke hold on everything... But with tongues he cannot get in there and control and manipulate.
But I was a Baptist before I was Pentecostal and believed at one time that speaking of tongues was of the devil. When the Holy Spirit came inside of me all of that changed. So, Anastacia, as once a Baptist I know where you are coming from.
To the Philadelphia Church age the Lord says....
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: -Revelations 3:12
The thing that the Sardisian Church age has over we Philadelphians is their steadfastness. The Azusa Street revival only lasted about 2 years. I have been in revivals with the Pentecostal people in which the spiritual experiences were rich... And then go through dry spells when it seems like there are long spells between blessings. "...and he shall no more go out" I believe the Lord is speaking to we Philadelphian's saying that when we get to heaven we will have those goods in our temples never to be taken away. I have redone my videos on the church ages and the Baptism in the Holy Ghost...
Church Age video response:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xwo60z7WCh4
Doctrine of the Baptism video response:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SID1FZZDtPw
But I was a Baptist before I was Pentecostal and believed at one time that speaking of tongues was of the devil. When the Holy Spirit came inside of me all of that changed. So, Anastacia, as once a Baptist I know where you are coming from.
To the Philadelphia Church age the Lord says....
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: -Revelations 3:12
The thing that the Sardisian Church age has over we Philadelphians is their steadfastness. The Azusa Street revival only lasted about 2 years. I have been in revivals with the Pentecostal people in which the spiritual experiences were rich... And then go through dry spells when it seems like there are long spells between blessings. "...and he shall no more go out" I believe the Lord is speaking to we Philadelphian's saying that when we get to heaven we will have those goods in our temples never to be taken away. I have redone my videos on the church ages and the Baptism in the Holy Ghost...
Church Age video response:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xwo60z7WCh4
Doctrine of the Baptism video response:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SID1FZZDtPw
Doesn't really matter about what denominations teach, it's what the Bible teaches. What Anastacia says here is correct.
The majority of churches, and ESPECIALLY in America where almost everyone speaks the same language, is not practicing tongues of the Holy Spirit. Period.
The entire context and purpose of the spiritual gifts was edification of the body. Speaking tongues in a church that all speaks the same language is not edifying the body.
Going to a China with little knowledge of Mandarin and being able to preach an entire sermon with no idea how you just did it... THAT is a gift of speaking in tongues that edifies the body.
These abuses we see in American churches is exactly why some, like Baptists, are extremely skeptical. However, Baptists take it too far and just say spiritual gifts are dead in order to ignore and write it off, that's not true. Both sides are at fault. One denies, and the other misapplies.
Reasons like these are why I don't claim a denomination.
I'm not a Baptist. And, there was a time when I would speak in tongues, and I would even interpret what I said. One day, the Holy Spirit revealed to me that I never studied it from the Bible, that I only went by what Pastors and others taught me about it. While studying about tongues, I understood what I was reading. My tongue speaking, and all the nowadays tongue speaking was shown to me for what it was---gibberish.
When you say "One reason why the devil hates tongues is because he cannot figure out what the pray-er is pray-ing. Like Jezebel in the old testament the devil likes to have a choke hold on everything... But with tongues he cannot get in there and control and manipulate." That statement you made is a Charismatic Pastors teaching tool for speaking in tongues---BUT it is not God's Word in the Bible.
rocytopva, Why did you quote Revelation 3:12 here to support speaking in tongues?
I will try to look at the videos today.
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I believe that the Methodist / Pentecostal/ Great awakening movements were part of the Philadelphian church age (Revelations 3:12)
Still have the influence of seven churches...
1. Ephesus - Apostolic - Scripture still before us!.
2. Smyrna - Martyr - 10 days = 10 general Roman persecutions.
3. Pergomos - Orthodox - Still alive in many parts of the world!
4. Thyatira - Catholic - Influence still large.
5. Sardis - Protestant - The influence of the Baptists is still great.
6. Philadelphia - Methodist / Pentecostal - Saved / Sanctified / Filled with the Holy Ghost!
***Is revival unique to the Philadelphian church age???*** Was this the revival of the last days?
7. Laodicea - Materialistic / Charistmatic / Educated - Influencing a lot of churches these days. Even the pope said that his church was being destroyed from within. No external enemies.
We are very close to the end of the church ages!
Francis Chan does a great job by the way of dealing with the issues of the Laodicean church age...
Lukewarm and Lovin it !!! http://www.youtube.c...h?v=pBhqrtMqrv8
And of the materialism.... http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wJR0GirmW-A
Let me say here that tongues is not as important to me as the personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
And people should NEVER try to teach tongues... If what you are experiencing is not of the Holy Spirit... If there is no light or energy to the blessing.... Leave it alone!
The Apostle Paul frequently spoke in tongues...
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: - 1 Corinthians 14:18
However when he was in church he recognized that such activity would do more harm than good.
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? - 1 Corinthians 14:6
Thank you for acknowledging something you agree with me about. I will not claim a denomination anymore, either. After I was saved, I would join different denominations, even non-denominational. But then I would learn something new about what they believe...I'd check it out in the Bible, then find out it is a false belief. I only want God's Truth, not a denomination's belief of the truth. I only claim that I'm part of the body of Christ, that is the church.
I know God can and does do many things for believers, through Jesus Christ. I think it is mostly Charismatics saying other people's beliefs are dead, if we don't believe in their nowadays tongue speaking. What do you think?
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Anastacia... Saint Augustine once said that "Mans extremity is God's opportunity." And in studying history I find that "Mans extremity is God's big headache!"
People should NEVER try to teach tongues or force it upon any individual. To tell people that they have the Holy Ghost and that they need to let it out in tongues when deep inside they know differently is very destructive, confusing, and should not be done. And I am disappointing at the people you are referring to.
The Pentecostal Holiness church I attend will teach people to tarry at the alter. The people who claimed sanctification and the baptism were spiritually as good as gold. Einstein said that E= mc2. If that is so then m = E / c2... Everything came together with light and energy. There is a spiritual light and energy available to us from on high. With this spiritual light comes faith, hope, charity, and spiritual fruit as stated in Galatians 5:22. People who are truly Spirit filled give all the praise and glory to Jesus Christ and go around like Jesus doing good.
You say you "believe that the Methodist / Pentecostal/ Great awakening movements were part of the Philadelphian church age (Revelations 3:12)." But you seem to forget what tongues were for in the first place....speaking in tongues were for a sign, and that sign has been given to the Jews. The Bible says...speaking in tongues is a sign for unbelievers. The unbelievers in the New Testament times would hear the speakers speaking the gospel in their foreign language. But the denominations speaking in nowadays tongues are believers, though their pastors preach to them to tongue speak for the believer's private praying and for those who are in their church, even though those in their church speak the same language! So how are unbelievers being convinced by your tongue speaking? Can you answer that?
The nowadays tongue speaking is not being done supernaturally. They are taught how to speak in tongues. They are taught by observing others "speaking in tongues," and they are even verbally taught how to do it. Some of the most common teaching techniques are explaining how to "just let it flow out."
In the New Testament the gospel of Jesus Christ was being told for the first time (See Romans 16:25-27). The foundation was being laid by the apostles and prophets, and Jesus Christ himself as Chief Cornerstone (see Ephesians 2:20). God testified to the Gospel of Jesus Christ with signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will (see Hebrews 2:4).
The gospel has been given. The foundation has been laid. And God has testified to it. We have the words of God in the Holy Bible. There is no other time like that of the New Testament times...the first Christians. Of course God can and does do wonderful things for us today. But the practice of the biblical speaking in tongues is not what all these Charismatics today are doing. The Bible tells us tongues will cease (see 1 Corinthians 13:8). And the Bible says that prophecies will stop. So why do you think there are no new prophecies about God and Jesus? If someone said they were a prophet and told you something about God and Jesus---you'd check out what they told you from the Bible! The Bible is finished. There are no new prophecies, just like the Bible says prophecies would stop.
rockytopva, Bringing up something Augustine once said does not help your case of speaking in tongues. Augustine was not writing the Words of God for the Bible.
You say "people should NEVER try to teach tongues." But that is what nowadays tongue speakers do. They ALL teach by example. They ALL teach with false information about the gift. And many even teach by verbally coaching.
Does your religion teach that all must speak in tongues or else they are not baptized in the Holy Spirit? If you say yes, then you have fallen into a false religion. I gave you Bible scripture that tells you not all, even in the Bible times, did not speak in tongues. Jesus didn't speak in tongues when on earth.
What do you mean when you say "the people who claimed sanctification and the baptism were spiritually as good as gold"? The Bible does not say anywhere that speaking in tongues came after a period of time of sanctification. In the Bible, new believers got the gift of speaking in tongues. AND, not only did new believers in the Bible times get the gift of speaking in tongues---they also were still doing things wrong. The church in Corinth had more in the way of spiritual gifts, from what we can see in the Bible. Yet it was a church that Paul speaks to about their law-suits, fornication, skepticism and abuse of the Lord’s table! Paul said they were not spiritual but carnal (1 Cor 3:1) and told them to quit being "children in mind" (14:20), a condition aggravated by their in-ordinate use of tongue-speaking!
I must say, I'm glad you at least realize that speaking in tongues is not something done on command or taught.
My question to you is when do you think it applicable?
I'm saying I don't think it's applicable in America much at all. We all speak English. There's no reason for it.
Please drop the reasoning that it "confuses Satan" because- it's not found in the Bible, anywhere.
Onward...
As your your use of the churches.
Other than "I want this to fit into my theory", by what method do you say 3:14 is suddenly future? All of these churches were real, historical (read: PAST) churches.
In 1:19, Christ even gave John the order of the book, to write what he had seen (Christ), those that are (the churches), and those that are to take place after (The rest of Revelation).
I pretty much agree with what you've said.
And oddly enough, I see him agreeing with much of this, too... He's the first Charismatic I've run into that I have to admit, I didn't have him pegged, not sure exactly what he believes at the moment.
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I have the influences of four church ages in my life...
Thyatira - My dad once studied to be a Catholic priest
Sardis - I was brought up Baptist
Philadelphia - I received the witness of the Spirit in a Pentecostal Holiness Church.
Laodicea - I like modern day preachers such as Joel Osteen and Francis Chan.
So I see advantages to each church...
Thyatira - I like the way they do Mass
Sardis - Decent and in order. Nobody can plan an outing like the Baptist
Philadelphia - To spiritually experience the Witness of the Spirit is an awesome thing!
Laodicean - Worship, independence, and Megachurch can be advantages here.
And I see the disadvantages
Thyatira - Newsflash! There are Christians outside of the Catholic church!
Sardis - Services can really be cut and dry
Philadelphia - People cannot plan an outing... Long time between revivals!
Laodiceans - Well, where do we start?
So... What does that make me? I like them all!
Thyatira - My dad once studied to be a Catholic priest
Sardis - I was brought up Baptist
Philadelphia - I received the witness of the Spirit in a Pentecostal Holiness Church.
Laodicea - I like modern day preachers such as Joel Osteen and Francis Chan.
So I see advantages to each church...
Thyatira - I like the way they do Mass
Sardis - Decent and in order. Nobody can plan an outing like the Baptist
Philadelphia - To spiritually experience the Witness of the Spirit is an awesome thing!
Laodicean - Worship, independence, and Megachurch can be advantages here.
And I see the disadvantages
Thyatira - Newsflash! There are Christians outside of the Catholic church!
Sardis - Services can really be cut and dry
Philadelphia - People cannot plan an outing... Long time between revivals!
Laodiceans - Well, where do we start?
So... What does that make me? I like them all!
How'd you come up with tying them to Catholic/Baptist/Pentecostal/etc???
And BTW, Joel Osteen is not a preacher of the gospel.
Good point you made about Joel Osteen is not a preacher of the gospel....and neither is the Catholic Church. When I was a Catholic...I never really understood that repent means don't do that sin anymore, because I was baptized as an infant! I walked around with a contrite heart and confessing, like the Catholic religion teaches, all the while continuing to sin.
And rockytopva calls the Baptist church dead. Not that I'm Baptist, but calling a church dead because they believe tongues and prophecies have ceased, like the Bible says, is wrong of him.
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1. The need for sainctification...
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. - Luke 5:37
2. Jesus is the Baptizer...
And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. nd I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.- John 1:32-34
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Who can I justify as totally righteous?
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. - 1 Corinthians 1:27-29
What do we have? Do we have a group of people boasting with God that they reached the mark of mentally correct? I don't think so! Yikes!
Of course we are to be sanctified! Of course Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. What does this have to do with what I said? And, don't you remember what I posted about the people of Corinth? And, are you saying those of the Pentecostal religion never sin at all anymore THEN they get the Holy Spirit? That is not biblical. The Holy Spirit helps us to not sin anymore. And won't you acknowledge the scriptures that shows not all believers, in the New Testament, spoke in tongues? Please acknowledge those scriptures.
1 Corinthians 12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
1 Corinthians 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
1 Corinthians 12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
rockytopva, I do want to say that I hope I am not coming across rudely. And when I use exclamation points or capitalize---it's just to make the point I'm trying to make stand out more to be more understandable. You have been very polite debating with. Thanks for that.
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Anastacia... This business of tongues basically ended in the Smyrnaen church age and we did not see its reemergence until Azusa Street. In which I agree with Seymour when he says...
“Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.” -William Seymour
When I come along I was aware that people had the Holy Ghost, not because of the tongues, but because of the energy and light they possessed. I use to help farm with a guy who claimed it and there were no dark areas within his character. But in this day in time we have people coming along that claim to have it, but there are dark places within their hearts... This bothers me more than anything else.
More teens becoming 'fake Christians" http://articles.cnn....ks?_s=PM:LIVING
Teaching people tongues is I believe doing more in promoting 'fake Christians' than anything else. If the experience is no longer real I would suggest letting it die with the Philadelphian church age.
“Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.” -William Seymour
When I come along I was aware that people had the Holy Ghost, not because of the tongues, but because of the energy and light they possessed. I use to help farm with a guy who claimed it and there were no dark areas within his character. But in this day in time we have people coming along that claim to have it, but there are dark places within their hearts... This bothers me more than anything else.
More teens becoming 'fake Christians" http://articles.cnn....ks?_s=PM:LIVING
Teaching people tongues is I believe doing more in promoting 'fake Christians' than anything else. If the experience is no longer real I would suggest letting it die with the Philadelphian church age.
Well, we can do a discussion just on the Azusa Street "reemergence" thing you are talking about. But it won't change the fact that tongues have ceased. I'm not sure what your quoted comment from William Seymour means. Would you mind explaining it? not that I take man's wisdom over God's.
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John Wesley laid the foundations of Pentecost with his Methodist doctrine. The Methodist differed from the rest of the protestants in that they suggested you go on after salvation into a deeper walk with God.
Seven Methods as I would teach it.
1. Justification - faith
2. Salvation - Sinners prayer
3. Outer sanctification - A churches standard
*** Inside sanctification***
4. Bible reading
5. Spiritual Light
6. Prayer and praise
7. The baptism in the Holy Ghost...
I like to teach this in the metaphor of the temple...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SID1FZZDtPw
But to teach people 'tongues' without taken them through the previous 6 steps is damaging. As Seymour said... “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in." There is no giving people the Holy Ghost. They must rightfully prepare there own temple for it.
Hi rockytopva,
I watched the video. I don't agree with the steps, though, I do understand where the idea came from.
With the step analogy, a person could possibly stop at a certain step then still be saved!? According to the steps, a person could be justified just by believing and go on no further!?
You still haven't acknowledged my question to you about being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Do you or not believe that a person has to speak in tongues if they have been baptized with the Holy Spirit? Please answer. This is a very important question. I have shown you scriptures showing you that that is not what the Bible says.
Also, am I correct in my understanding that your religion says that a person doesn't receive the Holy Spirit until after they lose the desire for sin? I received the Holy Spirit after I started obeying Jesus, but losing my desire for sins is part of my salvation, that I couldn't of accomplished unless I had the Holy Spirit.
I watched the video. I don't agree with the steps, though, I do understand where the idea came from.
With the step analogy, a person could possibly stop at a certain step then still be saved!? According to the steps, a person could be justified just by believing and go on no further!?
You still haven't acknowledged my question to you about being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Do you or not believe that a person has to speak in tongues if they have been baptized with the Holy Spirit? Please answer. This is a very important question. I have shown you scriptures showing you that that is not what the Bible says.
Also, am I correct in my understanding that your religion says that a person doesn't receive the Holy Spirit until after they lose the desire for sin? I received the Holy Spirit after I started obeying Jesus, but losing my desire for sins is part of my salvation, that I couldn't of accomplished unless I had the Holy Spirit.
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