Help Wanted - Luke 15:7

[2nd Timothy Group]

Hi 2Tim,

"If the Sinful Nature has been removed: Colossians 2:9-15 . . .
If the Curse has been removed: Galatians 3:13 . . .
If True Sheep have been granted the Divine Nature, thus escaping the corruption of the world: . . . 2 Peter 1:4
If our Old Life of sin is gone, and New Life begins: . . . 2 Corinthians 5:13-21
If True Sheep will reflect the Lord's Glory with increasing measure: . . . 2 Corinthians 3:14-18
If True Sheep are reborn, born of God and thus possess no pattern of sin: . . . 1 John 3:8-

10Why would a person, who has already repented and given their Heart to Christ for Purification . . . fall astray, thus needing to repent over and over again?" <--- Maybe because sheep are known to stray? And The Good Shepherd will never allow the evil one to snatch His sheep from His hand?

"... born of God and thus possess no pattern of sin <----"Pattern to me is the key word here. "Living" in sin, not falling in sin at times, as we still fight the flesh, and Satan. We can and do falter at times but where the difference in true sheep and false ones is, do you hate when you do or omit doing something God want's or does not want you to do? If we don't hate sin as He does then yes, the flesh and Satan will take over as we do not believe God then. We lose battles also at times but, He will never allow His true sheep to stray for very long or far. He brings us back into the fold. The key is IMHO, obedience, hearing and heeding and turning back in the right direction. Now, if you are speaking of those who make a lifestyle of sinning, and thinking God is okay with that then that would open up a whole nother issue, lol.

Simply put, this concept doesn't fit the narrative of the Bible as a whole. The whole point of the Bible is to deal with the six points above. What Adam and Eve did in the Garden is why the six points above exist at all. The Work of Christ is to Purify, thus, if a person has become Purified by Christ, thus no longer controlled by Satan, but now by the Holy Spirit, how does one Truly fall astray? They don't, and neither did Peter, Barnabas or the others that were allegedly fallen astray. <----- To myself, I see the narrative of the bible as a whole, beginning and ending with Christ. And, if what you say is true then, I myself am not a saved person because I DID walk away from the church for a good 20 years, BUT...I was not saved then, just wanted to be. I was holding onto the things of this world, that NEVER fully satisfy. When I realized about 8 or 9 years ago that HE never left my side, it was I who wandered off into the wilderness again. That realization, that day changed every single thing in my life. Simply put, I was never saved back then, but I know that I am now His as, things in my life that have happened when I put my FULL faith in Him for the impossible, the impossible happens! Nothing in this world turns my head, nothing. He has done that in His way and in His time. When looking back over the many years of leaving the church, there was not one single day that I did not think about God. Weather or not I understood anything didn't matter as, I can now say that He was continuing to draw me all that time.

Christians are not "controlled" by Satan but are tempted and can "fall" into sin (hopefully less and less as we grow), There is a difference between "falling in sin" and "living" in sin. We overcome with discernment and growth in Him. But, that is probably not overnight for most. Think Prodigal son? He walked away but was welcomed back.

"Fun stuff! This is an incredible Bible that we have!" <---- Yes indeed it is, it is a treasure chest...or should I say treasure hunt!

God bless
nancy


"

Okie Doke. :)

 

[Brakelite]

Hmmm . . . if what you're saying is True, then Scripture is false. The passage below, I can duplicate it over and over again throughout Old and New Testaments . . . here is just one.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]."

I not only agree with the above quoted scripture, my eternal destiny is dependant upon it being true, but I cannot access that grace and goodness unless I believe it to be true personally. That God cares and loves me, personally, being the one lost sheep, that He would leave the company of those that love Him and are thus perfectly safe, to risk His own neck, in order to redeem me.
But once redeemed... Once 'found', the above verse springs into action and my life is changed. Born again. Having a new nature that by the grace and power of God has direct access to all the power in the universe to enable me to obey God in all things. But even in our new nature, we can be led astray... By our own lusts... We do not leave our free will at the door of the Kingdom. We can leave at any time. Yes, He causes us to obey Him... Empowers us to obey... Even to the point of being partakers of the Divine nature, but we can never love God fully unless we have the choice not to. Born into sin and selfishness we had little choice but to transgress God's laws. Such a life was natural. But in our new nature as new creatures, we have greater choice than ever. The kingdom of God is not a prison. We can leave at any time.

 

[Behold]

This passage is a tough one, for me, to understand.

Luke 15:7 KJV - "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

The verse is symbolic....
Its similar to : "forgive 70x7".

The 99 just are the justified, ......they are already a part of God's family, is the idea.
But, just as the parable teaches in Luke 15 : that the shepherd left the "99 to go find that lost one"....

See its the same thing....

So, what is all this?
Well...
Its describing how important each of us are to God, who knows the number of hairs on your head, or exactly what you are thinking right now, as you read what im writing.

Salvation, is One on ONE with your Maker, God Almighty.
Each of us is unique and special, and each of us is cared about more than we can comprehend by Father God.

The usual way you teach this in a class so that the class can see it LITERALLY, is to say.....>"If you were the only person in the world, God would still have sent His Son for you"..
As that is the TRUTH.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I not only agree with the above-quoted scripture, my eternal destiny is dependant upon it being true, but I cannot access that grace and goodness unless I believe it to be true personally. That God cares and loves me, personally, being the one lost sheep, that He would leave the company of those that love Him and are thus perfectly safe, to risk His own neck, in order to redeem me.
But once redeemed... Once 'found', the above verse springs into action, and my life is changed. Born again. Having a new nature that by the grace and power of God has direct access to all the power in the universe to enable me to obey God in all things. But even in our new nature, we can be led astray... By our own lusts... We do not leave our free will at the door of the Kingdom. We can leave at any time. Yes, He causes us to obey Him... Empowers us to obey... Even to the point of being partakers of the Divine nature, but we can never love God fully unless we have the choice not to. Born into sin and selfishness we had little choice but to transgress God's laws. Such a life was natural. But in our new nature as new creatures, we have greater choice than ever. The kingdom of God is not a prison. We can leave at any time.

Okay, but it doesn't make sense to me in light of all Scripture.

Hebrews 6:4-6 HNV - "For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Ruach HaKodesh, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame."

Repentance is granted (for the eternal forgiveness of sins), and it is granted one time . . . not over and over again.

 

[Nancy]

Okie Doke. :)

Lol :)

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Lol :)

Hey, you don't know this, but you're the shining star, here. Why? Because you showed and proved that you are willing to listen . . . and even more . . . change your mind! You, my friend, have ears that are open to hearing. That, my friend, is incredible. Not too many people like you in this world. ;)

 

[Nancy]

Hey, you don't know this, but you're the shining star, here. Why? Because you showed and proved that you are willing to listen . . . and even more . . . change your mind! You, my friend, have ears that are open to hearing. That, my friend, is incredible. Not too many people like you in this world. ;)

Well, wow,
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words! And, now I will extend the same to you brother, I enjoyed this thread :)

 

[ReChoired]

The "one" wandered, the 99 did not because they were already saved

This ideology is incompatible with the text itself, please notice:

Mat_18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat_18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.​

The '99' "went not astray". They never went astray. They never needed repentance. The chiasm or parallelism is found in the text itself.

[A1] one them be gone astray

[B1] ninety and nine which went not astray
[B2] joy in heaven​

[A2] one sinner​

The contrast is that those on this earth have sinned, went astray. The '99' were those "in heaven", never having gone astray, needing no repentance, which were able to have "joy" over (even above) this lost world, which was found, of Christ. The '99' in Heaven, never needed to be 'saved', having never been lost.

Also, would you suggest that the majority (the '99') on earth, or even in the congregation of God on earth never went astray and it was a matter of just a few "one" that rebelled and needed repentance? Even this is backwards in your ideology. Why then is there a 'remnant' throughout scripture, rather than the majority remaining faithful (yet even in repentance, for all on this world need repentance)? The truth of the matter, is that most ('99') of Heaven remained faithful to God, and it was this single world ('one') that was lost.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Well, wow,
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words! And, now I will extend the same to you brother, I enjoyed this thread :)

Sweet! Then we shall do more of the same as the verses come along in my studies.

Great job, everyone! No one berated or belittled those with differing ideas. We need to listen and consider what others say. And if we can do that without hurting each other's feelings . . . well, now we're on to something good! :)

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

This ideology is incompatible with the text itself, please notice:

Mat_18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat_18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.​

The '99' "went not astray". They never went astray. They never needed repentance. The chiasm or parallelism is found in the text itself.

[A1] one them be gone astray

[B1] ninety and nine which went not astray
[B2] joy in heaven​

[A2] one sinner​

The contrast is that those on this earth have sinned, went astray. The '99' were those "in heaven", never having gone astray, needing no repentance, which were able to have "joy" over (even above) this lost world, which was found, of Christ. The '99' in Heaven, never needed to be 'saved', having never been lost.

Also, would you suggest that the majority (the '99') on earth, or even in the congregation of God on earth never went astray and it was a matter of just a few "one" that rebelled and needed repentance? Even this is backwards in your ideology. Why then is there a 'remnant' throughout scripture, rather than the majority remaining faithful (yet even in repentance, for all on this world need repentance)? The truth of the matter, is that most of Heaven remained faithful to God, and it was this single world that was lost.

Remnant . . . we cannot forget the Remnant! Hence, 1 compared to the 99. :)

This may be one of those verses that we have to ask the Lord about when He gives us the time (in Heaven).

 

[ReChoired]

Remnant . . . we cannot forget the Remnant! Hence, 1 compared to the 99. :)

This may be one of those verses that we have to ask the Lord about when He gives us the time (in Heaven).

Yes, but "remnant" (minority, less than 1 percent when studied in scripture) isn't '99' (majority). This is why I am saying that people that think that way are reading it backwards.
'

 

[Nancy]

This ideology is incompatible with the text itself, please notice:

Mat_18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat_18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.​

The '99' "went not astray". They never went astray. They never needed repentance. The chiasm or parallelism is found in the text itself.

[A1] one them be gone astray

[B1] ninety and nine which went not astray
[B2] joy in heaven​

[A2] one sinner​

The contrast is that those on this earth have sinned, went astray. The '99' were those "in heaven", never having gone astray, needing no repentance, which were able to have "joy" over (even above) this lost world, which was found, of Christ. The '99' in Heaven, never needed to be 'saved', having never been lost.

Also, would you suggest that the majority (the '99') on earth, or even in the congregation of God on earth never went astray and it was a matter of just a few "one" that rebelled and needed repentance? Even this is backwards in your ideology. Why then is there a 'remnant' throughout scripture, rather than the majority remaining faithful (yet even in repentance, for all on this world need repentance)? The truth of the matter, is that most ('99') of Heaven remained faithful to God, and it was this single world ('one') that was lost.

If you would go back in the posts, I did reiterate my original "ideology".

"The '99' in Heaven, never needed to be 'saved', having never been lost." Are we not all lost before we become saved?

"Also, would you suggest that the majority (the '99') on earth, or even in the congregation of God on earth never went astray and it was a matter of just a few "one" that rebelled and needed repentance? Even this is backwards in your ideology. Why then is there a 'remnant' throughout scripture, rather than the majority remaining faithful (yet even in repentance, for all on this world need repentance)? The truth of the matter, is that most ('99') of Heaven remained faithful to God, and it was this single world ('one') that was lost."

I honestly do not understand what you are saying here...

 

[Nancy]

The 99

 

[ReChoired]

If you would go back in the posts, I did reiterate my original "ideology".

Yes, and I understood what you said, but disagreed with what you said based upon the text.

"The '99' in Heaven, never needed to be 'saved', having never been lost." Are we not all lost before we become saved?

"We' (earthlings)" are "all lost" before "we become saved", yes, but the '99' have nothing to do with eartlings. The '99' are beings on the other worlds (not earth) that never fell into sin. They rejected Lucifer's appeals to them when he was cast out into the darkness (of space) and as a wandering 'star' (not literally) travelled to the other unfallen worlds to try to get them to join his rebellion, 2 Peter 2:4. This was before earth was created (Genesis 1:1).

"Also, would you suggest that the majority (the '99') on earth, or even in the congregation of God on earth never went astray and it was a matter of just a few "one" that rebelled and needed repentance? Even this is backwards in your ideology. Why then is there a 'remnant' throughout scripture, rather than the majority remaining faithful (yet even in repentance, for all on this world need repentance)? The truth of the matter, is that most ('99') of Heaven remained faithful to God, and it was this single world ('one') that was lost."

I honestly do not understand what you are saying here...

You are stating that the '99' are earthlings, who came to repentance (salvation) and remained faithful in their repentance. This would suggest that '99' (the majority) were always with God at all times (even though scripturally it was always less than 1% who remained faithful, remnant) while the majority '99' (on earth of God's people) went astray), and God only needed to send the Son to gather the few the "one" who "went astray" from repentance. That is not what the text says at all. That would be backwards from that which it is representing.

If you move the items to the contrast between actual unfallen worlds of Heaven above with their unfallen beings on them, they remained faithful to God, while this earth in the vast cosmos/universe fell into sin. It was this world alone that God needed to deliver from sin, not the '99' in the Heavens above, which is what the context is speaking about.

Most persons do not understand this Great Controversy that took place in the Heavens, the real 'Star Wars' (not the George Lucas knockoff), the real 'Cosmic Conflict', and they also have a great misunderstanding about Heaven (3rd) itself. It is a real place that Jesus ascended up to, going past our atmosphere (1st Heaven where the birds fly) and past the local Sol system (Sun moon and local stars (planets) are), and out into the vast reaches of 'outer space' unto the homeworld of God, the 3rd Heaven, at the center of all things, just past Orion (the Bible speaks about all these things, but because most of Christianity has spiritualized away (3rd) Heaven, having believed the lie of the devil, they are simply deceived, and do not know that (3rd) Heaven is as tangible as the seat your sitting on, and if you could presently travel to it by some means, you could reach that destination).

 

[Nancy]

Yes, and I understood what you said, but disagreed with what you said based upon the text.

"We' (earthlings)" are "all lost" before "we become saved", yes, but the '99' have nothing to do with eartlings. The '99' are beings on the other worlds (not earth) that never fell into sin. They rejected Lucifer's appeals to them when he was cast out into the darkness (of space) and as a wandering 'star' (not literally) travelled to the other unfallen worlds to try to get them to join his rebellion, 2 Peter 2:4. This was before earth was created (Genesis 1:1).

You are stating that the '99' are earthlings, who came to repentance (salvation) and remained faithful in their repentance. This would suggest that '99' (the majority) were always with God at all times (even though scripturally it was always less than 1% who remained faithful, remnant) while the majority '99' (on earth of God's people) went astray), and God only needed to send the Son to gather the few the "one" who "went astray" from repentance. That is not what the text says at all. That would be backwards from that which it is representing.

If you move the items to the contrast between actual unfallen worlds of Heaven above with their unfallen beings on them, they remained faithful to God, while this earth in the vast cosmos/universe fell into sin. It was this world alone that God needed to deliver from sin, not the '99' in the Heavens above, which is what the context is speaking about.

Most persons do not understand this Great Controversy that took place in the Heavens, the real 'Star Wars' (not the George Lucas knockoff), the real 'Cosmic Conflict', and they also have a great misunderstanding about Heaven (3rd) itself. It is a real place that Jesus ascended up to, going past our atmosphere (1st Heaven where the birds fly) and past the local Sol system (Sun moon and local stars (planets) are), and out into the vast reaches of 'outer space' unto the homeworld of God, the 3rd Heaven, at the center of all things, just past Orion (the Bible speaks about all these things, but because most of Christianity has spiritualized away (3rd) Heaven, having believed the lie of the devil, they are simply deceived, and do not know that (3rd) Heaven is as tangible as the seat your sitting on, and if you could presently travel to it by some means, you could reach that destination).

Um. Okay then!

 

[amigo de christo]

Um. Okay then!

UH , UM . me thinks you said it best sister
Cause something REALLY DONT Seem RIGHT about that statment ya clicked on . I bet ya know what i mean too .
WE sticking to the bible sister . YES we are . Now leap up and praise the glorious LORD .

 

[ReChoired]

Um. Okay then!

Where is Heaven (3rd)?

 

[Deborah_]

This passage is a tough one, for me, to understand.

Luke 15:7 KJV - "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

It seems to me that all need repentance. It seems to me that we were all, at one time, sinners.

I don't read commentaries, however, I prefer to talk to others and get their ideas. So . . . how do we make rational sense of this?

Jesus told this parable in a very specific context. He was talking to Pharisees, who were absolutely convinced that they themselves were "righteous" and didn't need to repent, and He was explaining why He spent so much time with the "sinners" whom they considered to be beyond hope. You mustn't expect one parable to contain the whole of Christian theology; it's specifically focused on one point, which in this case is the fact that God wants sinners to come home to Him and welcomes them. Of course the Pharisees also needed to repent - but Jesus doesn't start to bring that aspect in until the third of the parables in this series (the prodigal son) when the "good" elder brother is seen to be excluding himself from the party.

 

[OzSpen]

Most interesting paraphrasing of what I wrote. :)

[Edit - THAT's why I, for the most part, do not turn to commentators. They confuse what is obvious. Now, while you have thoroughly mistranslated me, at least I can communicate and clarify with you, while I do not have that chance with what some dude wrote in a book.

2nd T,

I find that disparaging that you could label some of God's teachers as a dude who wrote a book. Before God, you and I have a biblical responsibility for everything we hear or read: 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true' (Acts 17:11 NIV).

We are required to do it for the writings of Paul, your pastor's preaching, and for all commentators that we read as we pursue biblical teaching.

Oz

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true

But . . . that's what I'm doing. I don't get it. You want me to examine the commentaries of humans who disagree with each other? Do you honestly believe that commentary from humans is Scripture? If so . . . Okie Doke, but I sure do not. And, I never will.

If you don't like what I had to say about commentaries, then you certainly won't like what I say next. If a person goes to Bible College, that's a fantastic place to learn apostasy. I'd NEVER attend (pay) a Bible college unless it taught the Doctrine of Circumcision . . . and what Bible college teaches that . . . let alone any church?

And as you have warned me, I know that you won't mind that I warn you to be careful of your judgments of your "brothers and sisters." We just might know what we're talking about. Now, I could care less if you falsely judge me . . . but . . . my Father in Heaven doesn't like it so much. And I'll let Him deal with those who falsely judge me.

Thanks for letting me have it! :)