Why do you reject authority?

[Philip James]

Any organisation that purports to be the Church established by Christ is a fraudulent counterfeit

This comment is nonsensical!

Why would you join a 'church' that doesnt claim to be established by Christ?

Everything I said is backed up by history and the Churches established by Christ through the apostles...

You've got bupkis!

Peace!

 

[BarneyFife]

Thanks B5,

You suggest that “removal does not constitute divine judgment.”

How does Luke 10:16 play into your theory?

Curious Mary

Not at all. As far as I can tell, Luke 10 is about door-to-door evangelism--not ecclesiastical authority.

 

[David H.]

I agree with you that "Men will and have led many astray and into error". That does not negate the fact of what I pointed out in my OP. From the time of Moses to the Apostles men have bee given authority by God to rule over us. As Jesus said: Do as they say not as they do....If they reject you they reject me.

How do you determine which men you should do as they and not reject? Or did that authority end when the last Apostle died?

I believe the Holy Ghost led me to the authoritative Church that Jesus started so yes...The Holy Ghost taught me.

Here is What Jesus said, and see if this is in line with your "Authoritative church"....
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12)

You see, for many of us, the Holy Ghost has led us away from such people, and the church you claim as true is guilty of these self exaltations. This is known as Nicolaitanism which means to rule over the laity. Christ Jesus is the Only Head of the True church, and the Holy Ghost the Only teacher. Men are given the gifts of teaching till the time the faithful are able to walk on their own and eat and digest the meat of doctrine on their own. Like a social worker whose job is to get people off of assistance and handouts, if they are doing their job correctly, have instead created a culture that suckles on these handouts instead of feeding themselves. This is not just a Roman Catholic problem, but a problem with all institutional churches with a hierarchy such as the catholic church. They are not perfecting saints but maintaining suckling babes and they like it that way and they do not want the faithful to grow in Christ, and to digest the meat of the Word of God.

If I need instruction, and there are many times I do, I look for teachers who themselves are Holy Spirit taught. But ultimately the Holy Spirit is the one that guides me to them and shows me what they teach is right and true and what they teach is off. So for me, in things like salvation by grace alone through faith alone, Martin Luther was right, But in saying all Christians are saints he was wrong and I tend to agree with Catholic teaching which distinguishes between the faithful and the saints. That being said, the Catholic church took this distinction and corrupted it with the veneration and prayers to the saints, so much so that it caused Luther to reject this teaching altogether, throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater in their reform of the church.

The Goal of the Holy Ghost in teaching you is to make Jesus your all in all, that means all the other authorities will pass away, Prophecy will cease, when the perfect comes in, and the offices of teacher preacher prophet and apostles will cease when the saints are perfected as Ephesians 4 clearly speaks of, Let me quote those verses so that you can see this.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16)

This is what the true authoritative church looks like, A church of the saints is one that is moving away from men leading them to where all are walking in the fulness of Christ. This cannot happen in a church that believes in maintaining their hierarchichal power, and likes to be called rabbi and keep the laity in submission, whether that church is Catholic or protestant for even protestants are guilty of this.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:17-18)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (col. 2:8)

 

[BarneyFife]

I point folks back to scripture as their source.(sola scriptura)

The RCC points folks to doctrinal commentary.

I simply post the scripture and say "look".

The RCC posts commentary and says "look".


When I was 20, I debated an RCC priest in his office.

3 friends set it up.

I brought in my Bible and he carried in an armful of books to set on the desk.

By the end of about 10 minutes of the debate, he yelled "shut up and sit down"...LOL

Nice swerve. You provide commentary all the time.

 

[Marymog]

Here is What Jesus said, and see if this is in line with your "Authoritative church"....
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12)

You see, for many of us, the Holy Ghost has led us away from such people, and the church you claim as true is guilty of these self exaltations. This is known as Nicolaitanism which means to rule over the laity. Christ Jesus is the Only Head of the True church, and the Holy Ghost the Only teacher. Men are given the gifts of teaching till the time the faithful are able to walk on their own and eat and digest the meat of doctrine on their own. Like a social worker whose job is to get people off of assistance and handouts, if they are doing their job correctly, have instead created a culture that suckles on these handouts instead of feeding themselves. This is not just a Roman Catholic problem, but a problem with all institutional churches with a hierarchy such as the catholic church. They are not perfecting saints but maintaining suckling babes and they like it that way and they do not want the faithful to grow in Christ, and to digest the meat of the Word of God.

If I need instruction, and there are many times I do, I look for teachers who themselves are Holy Spirit taught. But ultimately the Holy Spirit is the one that guides me to them and shows me what they teach is right and true and what they teach is off. So for me, in things like salvation by grace alone through faith alone, Martin Luther was right, But in saying all Christians are saints he was wrong and I tend to agree with Catholic teaching which distinguishes between the faithful and the saints. That being said, the Catholic church took this distinction and corrupted it with the veneration and prayers to the saints, so much so that it caused Luther to reject this teaching altogether, throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater in their reform of the church.

The Goal of the Holy Ghost in teaching you is to make Jesus your all in all, that means all the other authorities will pass away, Prophecy will cease, when the perfect comes in, and the offices of teacher preacher prophet and apostles will cease when the saints are perfected as Ephesians 4 clearly speaks of, Let me quote those verses so that you can see this.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16)

This is what the true authoritative church looks like, A church of the saints is one that is moving away from men leading them to where all are walking in the fulness of Christ. This cannot happen in a church that believes in maintaining their hierarchichal power, and likes to be called rabbi and keep the laity in submission, whether that church is Catholic or protestant for even protestants are guilty of this.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:17-18)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (col. 2:8)

Thank you David.

None of what you wrote negates the fact that from Moses to the 12 Apostles there were men here on earth that had authority over all other Jews/Christians. You even agree that there is such a thing as an authoritative Church with saints. Yet you contradict yourself when you agree that there are Apostles prophets pastors etc but then say they can’t maintain their hierarchical power. That makes no sense to me.

None the less....thank you for your time.

Mary

 

[David H.]

None of what you wrote negates the fact that from Moses to the 12 Apostles there were men here on earth that had authority over all other Jews/Christians. You even agree that there is such a thing as an authoritative Church with saints. Yet you contradict yourself when you agree that there are Apostles prophets pastors etc but then say they can’t maintain their hierarchical power. That makes no sense to me.

Think about this for a moment. The Goal of a doctor is to make a patient healthy, that they do not need a doctor any longer, correct? A doctor who does not do this and instead keeps his patient in a sickbed and dependent on medicine despite being able to cure them is guilty of abuse, is he not?

The Job of a pastor is to make the person who is under their care healthy and not need a pastor any longer. A pastor who does not do this, and instead maintains that person in a state of dependency is then guilty of abuse. Abuse of Power. This is the sin of the Nicolaitan. The Goal of a true servant of God is to get people to walk in the fulness of Christ, that they all can be brethren under one Master and LORD. Division is caused by the teachings of Men, Unity comes by the Work of the Spirit in us, hence it is called the Unity of the Spirit. The Spirit will lead us to Spiritual health and not to Spiritual dependency, Spiritual health is to be filled with the fulness of Christ. The Body edifying itself in love.

As Ronald Reagan used the say, Government is not the solution to the problem it is the problem, so too for the church, Authoritative leadership is not the solution to the problem it is the problem. Until you see this, you will not understand the meekness of the leadership of God. Moses was said to be meek, Jesus is said to meek, the apostles were encouraged to be meek, the meekness of the hierarchy is what should be our goal. That means their goal is to make all like themselves. For all to be brethren.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (1 Peter 5:1-7)

You see, a shepherd guides his sheep to a green pasture, but he does not beat them into submission, in meekness he leads them, to become elders as he himself is, Not "lording over God's heritage". One day that younger believer will be an elder as well, not merely remaining as a subject. As Brethren we are subject to one another, which includes the elder as shepherd being subject to the sheep under him, for he is a servant of the Good shepherd.

 

[mjrhealth]

My choice is to ask you again not to troll me.

Oh I wont, like to see how you will answer to Jesus when you find out you havnt prepared the people for teh second coming you just made them slaves to your religion, as you are. But thats for you its was your choice. There will be none to defend you.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

What Is the Bible’s View?
Are Clergy-Laity Distinctions Scriptural?


CLERGY-LAITY distinctions have existed in the religious system of Christendom for many centuries. Few persons give thought as to the Scripturalness of having a professional clergy class presiding over the rest of the believers. Yet it may be asked, Is the dividing up of believers into clergy and laity in harmony with the inspired Scriptures?

In the first-century Christian congregation clergy-laity distinctions were unknown. These were a later development. Says the Encyclopaedia Britannica: “The 2nd century of the Christian church witnessed the emergence of a distinction between clergy and laity (Gr. laos, ‘people’). This distinction received form and recognition by the privileges and immunities granted to the clergy by Constantine I in the 4th century.

Well, has the bringing in of a professional clergy class been in the best interests of the church members? The Jesuit monthly Etudes states that it “maintains ‘the faithful’ in a state of ignorance and irresponsibility.” This is not an exaggeration. As part of a laity class, people generally take little initiative on their own to find out what the Bible says and to grow in spiritual comprehension. They simply leave this up to their clergyman, much the same as they entrust their health problems to their doctor.

This, however, was not the arrangement in the days of the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. All men within the congregation were encouraged to make spiritual progress and to work at becoming qualified teachers of God’s Word. According to the rendering of the Catholic Jerusalem Bible, the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: “To want to be a presiding elder is to want to do a noble work.” The Catholic New American Bible reads: “Whoever wants to be a bishop aspires to a noble task.”—1 Tim. 3:1.

The office of “presiding elder” or “bishop” was not beyond the reach of Christian men. However, this office was not what is commonly thought of today. It was an office of oversight held, not by just one man, but by a body of men. Those appointed to that office were called “overseers” or “elders.” Acknowledging that a body of men presided over a congregation, a footnote on Titus 1:5 in the Jerusalem Bible tells us: “In the earliest days each Christian community was governed by a body of elders (‘presbyters’, whence the English word ‘priests’).”

One’s qualifying as an “elder” or “overseer” was not a matter of ascending a hierarchical ladder, starting with the lowest rung. Catholic theologian Legrand writes: “The ordained ministry is not a cursus honorum [race for honors] to be run like climbing the rungs of a hierarchical ladder. In fact, the word hierarchy is not to be found in the Bible. Its earliest use goes back to the beginning of the 6th century, when Pseudo-Dionysius used it, although quite differently from the meaning given to it in the Middle Ages, limiting it to ordained ministers, whereas for Dionysius it [hierarchy] included the laity and even catechumens [learners].”

The fact that being an overseer or elder is not restricted to a limited number, nor dependent upon some seminary training, encourages Christian men to strive to measure up to the qualifications outlined in the Holy Scriptures. This encourages all to grow in knowledge and to want to be of service to fellow believers. Unlike the clergy-laity arrangement that contributes to people’s being Bible illiterates and failing to shoulder Christian responsibility, the Scriptural arrangement encourages their taking positive action in growing in Christian knowledge and in serving fellow believers. This has been the experience of Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are striving hard to pattern their congregations according to Biblical guidelines.

Furthermore, those serving as elders in the first-century congregation were under command to avoid taking a superior position with reference to its members. No man was to be viewed as an official leader or head of the congregation. Elevating titles were ruled out for all. Jesus Christ stated: “You, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister [servant].”—Matt. 23:8-11.

The Christian congregation was to be like a family under the headship of Jesus Christ. Accordingly, elders were to treat members of the congregation in harmony with that fact and humbly serve them. The apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: “Do not severely criticize an older man. To the contrary, entreat him as a father, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters with all chasteness.”—1 Tim. 5:1, 2.

The whole spirit of the Bible’s counsel to Christian elders is against the development of a clergy-laity distinction. The emphasis is always placed on unselfish service and avoiding anything that would imply an exalted position over fellow believers. The apostle Peter, for example, admonished fellow elders: “Shepherd the flock of God in your care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock.”—1 Pet. 5:2, 3.

The objective of Christian elders who were not inspired apostles was to avoid exercising a dominion or lordship over the “flock of God.” Their obligation was to help the members of this “flock” to hold onto what faith they already had and to help them to keep it pure and thereby work for the Christian joy of all. Just as the apostle Paul, when writing corrective letters of help to the Corinthian congregation, said: “It was out of consideration for you that I did not after all come to Corinth. Do not think we are dictating the terms of your faith; your hold on the faith is secure enough. We are working with you for your own happiness.”—2 Cor. 1:23, 24, The New English Bible; see also The Jerusalem Bible.

Truly the facts establish that clergy-laity distinctions of today are not based on the Holy Scriptures. They have actually hampered Christian growth by discouraging spiritual initiative. Such distinctions that exist in the religious organizations of Christendom are in fulfillment of prophecies that pointed to a turning away from true belief and practice. For example, the apostle Paul told the body of elders or overseers of the Ephesus congregation: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:30) Is this not something that should be given serious consideration by those belonging to organizations that approve clergy-laity distinctions?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hi PC,

My OP never said the RCC church is the Church that Christ started sooooooo your point is mute.

My OP showed that from the time of Moses to the 12 Apostles religion had hierarchy with men that had authority given to them by God. Did that authority stop when the last Apostle died?

Curious Mary

Jesus gave instructions about following the authority of those who "sit in the seat of Moses": "Do what they say, but not what they do" (Matthew 23:3).

Also, very interestingly, Jesus gave authority to believers over sickness and demons, but He never included authority over persons. I have never found any Scriptures that specify that anyone has authority over others. We may be in God's army, but there are not sergeant-majors in this army!

When I was the senior elder in a church, when we had no minister, I led so far from the rear, that no one knew I was even there, because we had a good team who ran the church decently and in order and there were never any discipline problems. I am also the chairperson for a budgeting agency, and over the 20 odd years, there was only once I had to put on my black suit and tie and asserted my role to put someone who was disobeying the manager, in their place. That person got a shock when I changed from being the happy guy who told joke and had fun, to the serious immaculately dressed chairperson calling the shots according to the agency's policies.

 

[David H.]

This has been the experience of Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are striving hard to pattern their congregations according to Biblical guidelines.

In My experiences with the Jehovah's witnesses and the Watchtower Bible society this fact is not true, there is a a hierarchy and leadership that decides what to believe and if you go against this they will do the very things they claim they are not doing. I Do not know if you knew this was a JW link you quoted or not, but they are not what they claim to be in this article.

I know this from studying them, from dealing with interventions with people who have fallen into this cult, and are trying to get out. Although I agree with much of what is said in this article, the source leads to more entrapment under the teachings of men.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Amen brother Paul....preach it.

I also think that people should leave those Churches that has leadership that is representing a false Jesus.

What Church do you go to Paul? Maybe we can get some people headed toward you and your church that does not represent a false teacher?

Mary

I now attend a small Union (Methodist/Presbyterian) church with six old ladies, one gentleman, and the part-time minister. All I did when I started with them, was to join the team. We have several visiting ministries who come twice a month - a mixture of liberal and conservative preachers. It is a church that one has to pick the meat from the bones. I wondered why the Lord led me there, and the response was that it was more important about putting into a church rather than what we can get out of it, and this particular church needed someone like me who preaches the Bible. I told that to the minister and he welcomed me and gives me opportunity around once a month to take a service and preach.

 

[mjrhealth]

Why would you join a 'church' that doesnt claim to be established by Christ?

Why would you join a church that does. They all make that very same claim and all preach a different Jesus and way to salvation. none of it is His, its all mens doing.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I point folks back to scripture as their source.(sola scriptura)

The RCC points folks to doctrinal commentary.

I simply post the scripture and say "look".

The RCC posts commentary and says "look".


When I was 20, I debated an RCC priest in his office.

3 friends set it up.

I brought in my Bible and he carried in an armful of books to set on the desk.

By the end of about 10 minutes of the debate, he yelled "shut up and sit down"...LOL

My father would have said to him: "You have lost the debate because you raised your voice!" And he would have been right. A priest has no authority, because his role passed into history when Jesus died on the cross. The role of a priest is to mediate between people and God, but now there is no other mediator than Christ, and He sent the Holy Spirit to be in us to be our guide and teacher. So the role of priest has been redundant for 2,000 years. So anyone assuming the role of priest is merely a fraud.

 

[Paul Christensen]

This comment is nonsensical!

Why would you join a 'church' that doesnt claim to be established by Christ?

Everything I said is backed up by history and the Churches established by Christ through the apostles...

You've got bupkis!

Peace!

History tells us all about those who aspired to be Pope murdered others to get the role, and that at one stage of history there were two competing popes. Even in more modern times Pope John Paul I was poisoned because he was determined to bring sweeping reforms to the Vatican, and those who didn't want the corruption exposed got rid of him and John Paul II was appointed instead. Pope Benedict resigned because he wanted to bring reforms to get rid of the rampant homosexuality in the Vatican, and he was given an offer he couldn't refuse - resign or go the same way as John Paul I! So this a church that claims to the be church that Christ instituted 2,000 years ago with popes claiming Apostolic succession! History shows that the present "Church", headed by the Pope, is nothing like the early Church of Acts, and more like the pagan temples of First Century Rome!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Why would you join a church that does. They all make that very same claim and all preach a different Jesus and way to salvation. none of it is His, its all mens doing.

It all depends on why you want to join a church. Many join churches because they want to be leaches, getting what they can out of the ministry. If the ministry doesn't suit them they leave a find another church that can give them more of what they want out of it. What happens is that they find the church that suits them and they rot away in the pews as useless drones, getting "fat" on the input, and contributing nothing.

Jesus said that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Those who are the "movers and shakers" in the church are those whose attitude is to put into a church according to the gifting God has given them. Not all can be the preacher, but there are many other ways people can contribute to a church. Some contribute financially, others are musicians, others are great in the catering department, still others are practical handy persons, like when a member accidently drove her car through the front foyer of our church, and we had a builder in the congregation who came straight away and made the front of the church secure until we could get the framing and glass panels replaced.

A church is more than just the Sunday services and the preacher. A church needs administrators, accountants, maintenance people, and even tea ladies, as well as Sunday school teachers, people to manage the church op shop (which keeps our little church open with the profits that come from it).

There are people who all sorts of gifting and skills sitting in large churches doing nothing except moan and groan when things don't go their way. They are mere useless drones who occupy a pew on Sunday morning, but do nothing else. They are just bums on seats to make up the numbers but otherwise useless to the body of Christ.

I wondered what I could do when I first joined my little church, but after less than a year, I am now on the Management Committee, take a service and preach once a month, and am the backup pianist when our normal pianist cannot play through illness. When I first joined, I told the senior elder that my greatest contribution to the church is "being here" because one more person is a valuable addition to such a small church. It wasn't long before I was doing tasks in order to further contribute to the church. Therefore I would rather be in a small church with six old ladies and one man, and making a meaningful contribution to it, than sitting in a church with 400 people in it rotting away uselessly sitting in a pew.

 

[jaybird]

So I ask you: Why do you reject the authority of church leadership? Why do you reject church hierarchy?

Curious Mary

most of these leaders claiming authority have no authority.
if the church leaders are burning people alive, torturing people, declaring war that only benefit the rich, asking for your credit card, flying around in luxury jets to places that already have perfectly good churches, etc etc, they are not real leaders.
this is the bad fruit that Jesus warned us about. if a leader really wants to lead they need to lead by example, not by words like a politician that lies every time they open their mouth.

 

[quietthinker]

I never asked if you reject the authority of my church. I asked.....in general...why do you reject authority!

Thank you for your apology.

Mary

the subject matter is the authority of your church. I will let others deduce how they receive your reply here!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In My experiences with the Jehovah's witnesses and the Watchtower Bible society this fact is not true, there is a a hierarchy and leadership that decides what to believe and if you go against this they will do the very things they claim they are not doing. I Do not know if you knew this was a JW link you quoted or not, but they are not what they claim to be in this article.

I know this from studying them, from dealing with interventions with people who have fallen into this cult, and are trying to get out. Although I agree with much of what is said in this article, the source leads to more entrapment under the teachings of men.

Seems to me what you're actually trying to say is that when it comes to believers who speak of another gospel or live a life in which a Christian brother or sister is living a life of immortality, the scriptures don't say to not associate with such people, but the scriptures teach that those who are baptized members of the congregation and begin living a immoral life or speaking of another gospel they didn't learn in the church and they are subverting the faith of other baptized members, are not to be associated with or disassociated, what is called disfellowshiping. You think do you, that those who are baptized members of the church should be allowed to subvert the faith of your fellow Christians. You think that as a Christian that when you see those who are baptized members of the church and they are speaking of another gospel and subverting the faith of other baptized members of the church that you should encourage fellow Christians to listen to these who are teaching another gospel to fellowship with them as though they're find upstanding Christians, even though they're subverting the faith of fellow Christians in the church.

 

[quietthinker]

Truth becomes elusive to all who seek self justification.....be it self justification in 'the bible says so' or outright denial of inconvenient history whether it be their own or that of organisations or nations they are partial to.

Self justification does not ask, seek and knock objectively. Its sole purpose is to manipulate information to fit the favoured narrative. As such, there is no point bringing proof.....it is a wasted exercise......henceforth the scripture declares, 'a fool is known by his many words.'

Ever wonder why Jesus said so little at his trial?

 

[Brakelite]

Not at all. As far as I can tell, Luke 10 is about door-to-door evangelism--not ecclesiastical authority.

Which ironically is frowned upon in Catholic circles. Proselytizing they call it. One wonders why so many are here.