Why do you reject authority?

[mjrhealth]

It all depends on why you want to join a church. Many join churches because they want to be leaches, getting what they can out of the ministry. If the ministry doesn't suit them they leave a find another church that can give them more of what they want out of it. What happens is that they find the church that suits them and they rot away in the pews as useless drones, getting "fat" on the input, and contributing nothing.

Jesus said that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Those who are the "movers and shakers" in the church are those whose attitude is to put into a church according to the gifting God has given them. Not all can be the preacher, but there are many other ways people can contribute to a church. Some contribute financially, others are musicians, others are great in the catering department, still others are practical handy persons, like when a member accidently drove her car through the front foyer of our church, and we had a builder in the congregation who came straight away and made the front of the church secure until we could get the framing and glass panels replaced.

A church is more than just the Sunday services and the preacher. A church needs administrators, accountants, maintenance people, and even tea ladies, as well as Sunday school teachers, people to manage the church op shop (which keeps our little church open with the profits that come from it).

There are people who all sorts of gifting and skills sitting in large churches doing nothing except moan and groan when things don't go their way. They are mere useless drones who occupy a pew on Sunday morning, but do nothing else. They are just bums on seats to make up the numbers but otherwise useless to the body of Christ.

I wondered what I could do when I first joined my little church, but after less than a year, I am now on the Management Committee, take a service and preach once a month, and am the backup pianist when our normal pianist cannot play through illness. When I first joined, I told the senior elder that my greatest contribution to the church is "being here" because one more person is a valuable addition to such a small church. It wasn't long before I was doing tasks in order to further contribute to the church. Therefore I would rather be in a small church with six old ladies and one man, and making a meaningful contribution to it, than sitting in a church with 400 people in it rotting away uselessly sitting in a pew.

But you see you still missed it, as so many do. Christ has His church the Spiritual one, made up of those who follow Him, and there is mens Church the Harlot. We become a part of "His" Church, when we come to Him and Receive the Holy Spirit, and so become joined to Him as His bride, when you Join mens church you become joined to the harlot, this bit

1Co_6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Its all about marriage, if you are joined to Him and than Join mens religion the Harlot church you too become a harlot, because you are in the Spirit a woman being now joined to another woman, you know what that is dont you. You cant be His bride, pure spotless and without blemish while you are joined to a harlot.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Is that what you want, satan loves religion keeps men "doing', instead of walking in faith.

1Co_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

So who is it you want to be joined too.

 

[Marymog]

Not at all. As far as I can tell, Luke 10 is about door-to-door evangelism--not ecclesiastical authority.

Thanks B5,

Jesus said to the Apostles In that passage.....and the Apostles only....If they reject you they reject me.

Your theory is that if I go “door-to-door” and evangelize baptism saves you, which is a Catholic teaching, and you go door to door evangelizing baptism doesn’t save you...which is opposite of Catholic teaching...AND they reject both our teaching and come up with their own teaching..... then that means they have rejected Jesus????

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Here is What Jesus said, and see if this is in line with your "Authoritative church"....
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (Matthew 23:8-12)

You see, for many of us, the Holy Ghost has led us away from such people, and the church you claim as true is guilty of these self exaltations. This is known as Nicolaitanism which means to rule over the laity. Christ Jesus is the Only Head of the True church, and the Holy Ghost the Only teacher. Men are given the gifts of teaching till the time the faithful are able to walk on their own and eat and digest the meat of doctrine on their own. Like a social worker whose job is to get people off of assistance and handouts, if they are doing their job correctly, have instead created a culture that suckles on these handouts instead of feeding themselves. This is not just a Roman Catholic problem, but a problem with all institutional churches with a hierarchy such as the catholic church. They are not perfecting saints but maintaining suckling babes and they like it that way and they do not want the faithful to grow in Christ, and to digest the meat of the Word of God.

If I need instruction, and there are many times I do, I look for teachers who themselves are Holy Spirit taught. But ultimately the Holy Spirit is the one that guides me to them and shows me what they teach is right and true and what they teach is off. So for me, in things like salvation by grace alone through faith alone, Martin Luther was right, But in saying all Christians are saints he was wrong and I tend to agree with Catholic teaching which distinguishes between the faithful and the saints. That being said, the Catholic church took this distinction and corrupted it with the veneration and prayers to the saints, so much so that it caused Luther to reject this teaching altogether, throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater in their reform of the church.

The Goal of the Holy Ghost in teaching you is to make Jesus your all in all, that means all the other authorities will pass away, Prophecy will cease, when the perfect comes in, and the offices of teacher preacher prophet and apostles will cease when the saints are perfected as Ephesians 4 clearly speaks of, Let me quote those verses so that you can see this.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16)

This is what the true authoritative church looks like, A church of the saints is one that is moving away from men leading them to where all are walking in the fulness of Christ. This cannot happen in a church that believes in maintaining their hierarchichal power, and likes to be called rabbi and keep the laity in submission, whether that church is Catholic or protestant for even protestants are guilty of this.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:17-18)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (col. 2:8)

Hi,

The Holy Ghost has led you where??? To whom???? What YOU believe to be true?

My OP still stands. Since the time of Moses thru the Apostles God has ordained certain men to lead his people. None of the passages you quoted negates that fact.

Who had authority To teach the Truth AFTER the last Apostles died? No one??

Curious Mary

 

[Truther]

Nice swerve. You provide commentary all the time.

I never teach you how to read your Bible. That is commentary.

I teach you that you must read and apply your Bible literally. That is exhortation.

 

[Marymog]

Oh I wont, like to see how you will answer to Jesus when you find out you havnt prepared the people for teh second coming you just made them slaves to your religion, as you are. But thats for you its was your choice. There will be none to defend you.

For the 4th time.....Stop communicating with me.

 

[mjrhealth]

For the 4th time.....Stop communicating with me.

Why dont you want the truth?? But since you insist.

 

[Marymog]

I have never found any Scriptures that specify that anyone has authority over others. We may be in God's army, but there are not sergeant-majors in this army!......

PC,

Read my original post and you should CLEARLY see that there are some that “has authority over others”. Your opinion does not negate what I wrote and what scripture CLEARLY says!!!!!

Do you not believe that the Apostles had authority over all other Christians that were alive at the time????

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

the subject matter is the authority of your church. I will let others deduce how they receive your reply here!

Nope....that was not the subject matter. The subject matter was exactly what I wrote. Never, not once, ever did I mention my Church. There are MULTIPLE non-denominational members on this forum. They completely reject a hierarchical church. I don’t care if it is Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, etc etc. They reject the authority of THAT church (denomination) and accept their own perceived authority. Scripture makes it VERY clear that theory is not biblical. If anyone deduces anything other than that then they are not good at deducing.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

most of these leaders claiming authority have no authority.
if the church leaders are burning people alive, torturing people, declaring war that only benefit the rich, asking for your credit card, flying around in luxury jets to places that already have perfectly good churches, etc etc, they are not real leaders.
this is the bad fruit that Jesus warned us about. if a leader really wants to lead they need to lead by example, not by words like a politician that lies every time they open their mouth.

Thank you Jaybird.

I agree with you that most claiming authority have no authority.

Is there a church leader living today that is leading by example that you follow?

Mary

 

[quietthinker]

Nope....that was not the subject matter. The subject matter was exactly what I wrote. Never, not once, ever did I mention my Church. There are MULTIPLE non-denominational members on this forum. They completely reject a hierarchical church. I don’t care if it is Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, etc etc. They reject the authority of THAT church (denomination) and accept their own perceived authority. Scripture makes it VERY clear that theory is not biblical. If anyone deduces anything other than that then they are not good at deducing.

Mary

Oh Mary, your reply is pitiful.....you have forgotten the very things you argued only some posts back.

 

[kcnalp]

God has always given us leaders who we are to obey and who watch out for our souls (Hebrews 13:17). Jesus even makes it clear that the Jews were to obey those that sit on Moses seat (Matthew 23:2-3). If their teaching causes us to stumble or they are a bad example to their flock (sin) He tells us what will happen to them (Malachi 2:7-9, 1 Timothy 5:19-20). Scripture makes it clear that the Holy Spirit has made them overseers to care for the church of God (Acts20:28) and those who rule over us are worthy of double honor (1Timothy 5:17). Jesus chose 12 men that he revealed the Truth to. Those 12 men were to then go teach others this Truth. Those that were chosen by the Apostles to teach the Truth had to meet certain requirements (1Timothy, Titus) to be elders/overseers of The Church. And what they were taught was to be taught to other reliable men (2 Timothy 2:2). Scripture makes it very clear there is a hierarchy in The Church and that the leaders of The Church decide what all other members of The Church are to believe, practice etc. That is the purpose of some of the letters written to the different churches, to correct “divisions amongst you”, and the purpose of the Council of Jerusalem. I could give multiple other passages from Old and New Testament Scripture that supports Church hierarchy and authority; but you get the point.



So I ask you: Why do you reject the authority of church leadership? Why do you reject church hierarchy?



Curious Mary

That presents a terrible problem. Nearly all the "Churches" have drastic differences in beliefs. The "Church" is a mess!

 

[Marymog]

I don’t know that it’s so much that they stole anything from the Lord, maybe the better way to view this is there are people in this world and always have been that need some man to tell them what they think.

Hi WOH,

Did the 1st Century Christians have 12 men to tell them what to think AND do?? The men at the Council of Jerusalem (which was made up of men) decided that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep the fasts, and other specific rituals, including the rules concerning Circumsission of males. Soooo it seems your theory is negated by Scripture.

Jesus said obey those that sit on Moses seat, just don’t do what they do. Jesus seems to preach different than what you believe? How do you justify your theory?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

That presents a terrible problem. Nearly all the "Churches" have drastic differences in beliefs. The "Church" is a mess!

Hi kcnalp,

Yup....Christianity is a mess. Soooo many denominations with different teachings on what one must do to be saved.

It seems we will never fulfill Jesus prayer that we all become one and teach as one.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Oh Mary, your reply is pitiful.....you have forgotten the very things you argued only some posts back.

Thank you QT,

Sooooo you really don’t have any evidence?? If you did i suspect you would have provided it. You didn’t sooooo what you have posted is your opinion. Well, thank you for your opinion...everyone has one.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Think about this for a moment. The Goal of a doctor is to make a patient healthy, that they do not need a doctor any longer, correct? A doctor who does not do this and instead keeps his patient in a sickbed and dependent on medicine despite being able to cure them is guilty of abuse, is he not?

The Job of a pastor is to make the person who is under their care healthy and not need a pastor any longer. A pastor who does not do this, and instead maintains that person in a state of dependency is then guilty of abuse. Abuse of Power. This is the sin of the Nicolaitan. The Goal of a true servant of God is to get people to walk in the fulness of Christ, that they all can be brethren under one Master and LORD. Division is caused by the teachings of Men, Unity comes by the Work of the Spirit in us, hence it is called the Unity of the Spirit. The Spirit will lead us to Spiritual health and not to Spiritual dependency, Spiritual health is to be filled with the fulness of Christ. The Body edifying itself in love.

As Ronald Reagan used the say, Government is not the solution to the problem it is the problem, so too for the church, Authoritative leadership is not the solution to the problem it is the problem. Until you see this, you will not understand the meekness of the leadership of God. Moses was said to be meek, Jesus is said to meek, the apostles were encouraged to be meek, the meekness of the hierarchy is what should be our goal. That means their goal is to make all like themselves. For all to be brethren.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (1 Peter 5:1-7)

You see, a shepherd guides his sheep to a green pasture, but he does not beat them into submission, in meekness he leads them, to become elders as he himself is, Not "lording over God's heritage". One day that younger believer will be an elder as well, not merely remaining as a subject. As Brethren we are subject to one another, which includes the elder as shepherd being subject to the sheep under him, for he is a servant of the Good shepherd.

Thanks DH,

Not sure what this has to do with Church authority but thank you for your time.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I point folks back to scripture as their source.(sola scriptura)

Using Scripture Alone please provide me...from Scripture....a table of contents!!!

Mary

 

[Marymog]

most of these leaders claiming authority have no authority.
if the church leaders are burning people alive, torturing people, declaring war that only benefit the rich, asking for your credit card, flying around in luxury jets to places that already have perfectly good churches, etc etc, they are not real leaders.
this is the bad fruit that Jesus warned us about. if a leader really wants to lead they need to lead by example, not by words like a politician that lies every time they open their mouth.

Hi Jaybird,

What church leaders are burning people alive? Are you talking about the Protestant leaders that killed Catholics and other Protestants or church leaders in general? I don’t think it is happening today.

@BreadOfLife has some good historical references to this matter and church authority...if he cares to chime in?

Mary

 

[Truther]

Using Scripture Alone please provide me...from Scripture....a table of contents!!!

Mary

Name the scriptural subject, and I will teach you sola scriptura.

 

[Paul Christensen]

But you see you still missed it, as so many do. Christ has His church the Spiritual one, made up of those who follow Him, and there is mens Church the Harlot. We become a part of "His" Church, when we come to Him and Receive the Holy Spirit, and so become joined to Him as His bride, when you Join mens church you become joined to the harlot, this bit

1Co_6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Its all about marriage, if you are joined to Him and than Join mens religion the Harlot church you too become a harlot, because you are in the Spirit a woman being now joined to another woman, you know what that is dont you. You cant be His bride, pure spotless and without blemish while you are joined to a harlot.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Is that what you want, satan loves religion keeps men "doing', instead of walking in faith.

1Co_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

So who is it you want to be joined too.

So this means that you don't belong to any church at all. If that is so, then it's just "God and me", and that means that if any gifting you have is pointless because no one outside the "God and me" bubble is being blessed.

 

[jaybird]

Thank you Jaybird.

I agree with you that most claiming authority have no authority.

Is there a church leader living today that is leading by example that you follow?

Mary

there was a Catholic leader in the last 10 - 20 years, i think pope but maybe a lesser rank, that made some public statements about many of the wrongdoings that the church had done in the past. i dont remember the specifics, if he was talking about inquisitions, burning people alive or what, but the fact that he acknowledged it was a big deal to me. he wasnt there, he didnt give the orders, but yet he stood up, took responsibility, and said we will learn from the mistakes and make the most of it. and he pointed the finger at his own church rather than distracting everyone by pointing at another church. this is the actions of a good leader IMO.

as for leaders leading me, i have had some good leaders in the past, a few preachers from the little smalltown churches i grew up in, a few from church camp when i was young. they helped me when i was down and kept me going in the proper direction. i think we all need a good teacher but i also strongly believe we have to reach a point to separate from the teacher and rely on guidance from the spirit, faith in the spirit. until you reach that point you will just be following man and not the Most High.
Peter walked on water with Jesus, his faith was not strong and he sank. i want to walk on water like Jesus, thats the faith i would like to have one day, IMO as long as you follow man and not the spirit you will never have that kind of faith.