Who founded your church?

[Renniks]

Wrong.

As a teacher of the people of Israel - Nicodemus should have been familiar with Ezekiel's prphecy about Baptism and rebirth (Ezek. 36:25-28). THAT'S why Jesus rebuked him.

Consider the context of that quote:

Ezek. 36:22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
Ezek. 36:23 “I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
Ezek. 36:24 “For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
Ezek. 36:25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Ezek. 36:26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezek. 36:27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

The sprinkling of water describes the removal of sin, the new heart symbolizes coming to faith, and the placing of God's Spirit refers to an obedient walk. The Lord is speaking about the way He will bring salvation to the nation of Israel in the last days.

Ezekiel was NOT prescribing a method for Christian baptism. In fact, he was not speaking of baptism at all. The mere fact that God used the term "sprinkling water" poetically to refer to removing Israel's sin does not permit us to twist the meaning of the passage to explain how believers perform water baptism. As demonstrated, Ezekiel was speaking solely about God's plan of salvation for Israel, and in that context he used the term "sprinkling" in an entirely different (and unrelated) context. So, Ezekiel's teaching has nothing to say whatsoever about the proper method for Christian baptism.

 

[theefaith]

Everyone on this forum should read the link to this encyclical. If you desire to understand why the Catholics on this forum despise biblical authority it is clear because the Bible counters so much of Catholic dogma when understood correctly... When understood without the corrupting effects of tradition and superstition.

What Catholics refuse to acknowledge but what genuine history attests to, is the the scriptures were being disseminated throughout the world before Constantine had his 50 Bibles put together.... Before Jerome translated the originals into Latin. The church was already growing exponentially throughout all Asia, Europe, and as far as Britain to the west, expanding also into Assyria, Persia and India to the east and beyond, and those churches, those hundreds of thousands of new converts to Christ, were not converted by tradition and the Latin Vulgate.

all dogma or thee faith is supported by scripture
As in the dogma: there is only one God!

 

[theefaith]

And there it is, folks.

OT Precedent
​

God told Elijah to kill heretics, and so the Catholic church should be justified in killing heretics.

In our day, maybe? Unless the gates of hell have prevailed against it, it should be A-okay.


The cat is out of the bag.


My dad used to say: "If you talk long enough, eventually you're gonna say something dumb."


"At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others." -- Last Day Events, p. 180

1 Peter 2:14
Or unto governors, as unto them thatare sent by him for the punishment ofevildoers, and for the praise of themthat do well.

 

[theefaith]

So. What you would have us believe is that while Catholics despise "once saved always saved" , you would have us believe that. "once circumcised (or baptised), always saved"? So circumcision saved Jews?

Mmm. Do you work for Google or Facebook?
What you are saying is...
"We can't talk about that because there's too much misinformation... Let's talk about this instead".
This isn't derailing the thread. Ask those Muslim Serbs 'who founded the church' they were forced to submit to. Jesus,? Jesus founded a church that could justify torturing and murdering millions of Yugoslavs because they weren't Catholic? No. He didn't. But that is what your church is about. Murdering those who disagree with her. Ask @theefaith . He will tell you.

catholic have no problem with once saved always saved!

 

[theefaith]

So. What you would have us believe is that while Catholics despise "once saved always saved" , you would have us believe that. "once circumcised (or baptised), always saved"? So circumcision saved Jews?

Mmm. Do you work for Google or Facebook?
What you are saying is...
"We can't talk about that because there's too much misinformation... Let's talk about this instead".
This isn't derailing the thread. Ask those Muslim Serbs 'who founded the church' they were forced to submit to. Jesus,? Jesus founded a church that could justify torturing and murdering millions of Yugoslavs because they weren't Catholic? No. He didn't. But that is what your church is about. Murdering those who disagree with her. Ask @theefaith . He will tell you.

stop putting words in my mouth, I never said anything about murder, cold blooded premeditated murder is against the commandment, the church has authority to condemn heretics for their errors and if they refuse to recant are turned over to the state, the state has authority to execute justice, that’s not murder!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Being involuntarily slaughtered, is a far cry from being a steadfast martyr. You do know the difference, right? If I get shot sitting in my home, there is no glory for anyone in that, or even while I'm at Church - I never saw it coming.
Savanorole, Tyndale, Hus, Luther, Polycarp, Nero's & Domitian's victims were true martyrs - they were offered to recant.

They WERE given a chance to recant their faith and were butchered upon refusal. So were the monks of the Cistercian Monastery of Our Lady of Atlas in Algeria, who were BEHEADED by Islamic fundamentalists in 1996 for not recanting their Christian faith.

I can show you example after example after example of ascetics being murdered for their faith.
How does that foot in your mouth taste now??

 

[BarneyFife]

1 Peter 2:14
Or unto governors, as unto them thatare sent by him for the punishment ofevildoers, and for the praise of themthat do well.

Right, so you're all for the unification of Church and State. We get it. Pile up the kindling; sharpen the axe; get on with it, right?

 

[BreadOfLife]

A century or so previous to this Tamerlane wiped out every last vestige of Christianity in the east. Entire communities and cities massacred. Tens of Thousands of martyrs. None of them Catholic.

Any persecution by Protestants was just as reprehensible and wicked as that of Rome. Although a case could be made for two mitigating circumstances...

• It had been Catholic policy for centuries to destroy all opposition to Catholic doctrine... That those who had recently come out of that system still practiced what they had been taught was not a surprise
• Because it was always the Catholic goal to rule England (and elsewhere including the USA... Congratulations on that victory by the way) politically, those executions could be reasonably argued as death sentences for treason... Not religious persecution. Either way I disagree with the practise of any church handing out a death sentence upon others for their different belief... The council of Trent several years after these events confirmed the policy of opposing all dissenters with any and all means at their disposal.

How many Protestants were rounded up by Catholics and butchered 20 years previous in 1572? The French revolution wasn't a war against Catholicism. It was a rejection of all religion hence the enthronement of the goddess of reason and the birth of atheistic communism.

While I cringe at the unnecessary death of any person of any faith at the hands of their religious enemies, I have to remind you that the few Catholic numbers are miniscule in comparison to the numbers of non Catholic victims of persecution throughout the centuries. First at the hands of pagan Rome before papal Rome existed... Then at the hands of papal Rome... And also at the hands of indigenous peoples in lands where missionaries ventured such as in Britain at the hands of picts, vikings, saxons etc., In the east at the hands of islamists and Zoroastrianism and hinduism... All before Catholic missionaries started their persecutions from the 5th or 6th centuries of Christians not willing to surrender to papal authority. Oh, I didn't mention the counter reformation.
In other words, your searching in history for some few instances of Catholics dying for their faith as a mark of fidelity and sacrifice pales into insignificance compared to the whole of history as a testimony of faithfulness and self sacrifice. All shall be rewarded for their selflessness when the time comes... And in the end it ain't be the Catholic Church that will be praised and glorified..Nor any other church... It will be Christ.

Your missing the point.

My debate with @DNB WASN'T about who lilled more people. He was insisting that those who live an ascetic life, like monks - were "wasting" their time and never really suffered for their faith. I was pointin out that MANY of them throughout history were martyred for their faith.

As for wrongful killing of Christians - there is PLENTY of blood on EVERYBODY'S hands in history when it comes to that - Catholic, Protestant or otherwise..

 

[BarneyFife]

the church has authority to condemn heretics for their errors and if they refuse to recant are turned over to the state, the state has authority to execute justice, that’s not murder!

Problem is, that's not how things work in civilization. Only in religio-political systems.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Exactly. Yes, we need to be obedient. No, obedience doesn't save us and not one obeys perfectly. In order to be saved by obeying, we would have to be as perfect as Jesus. No one has ever done that, so no one can be saved under your theory.

Boy - you REALLY don't undrstand Jesus - DO you?

He doesn't expect perfection - He expects obedience. You cannot have true faith without it but it's NOT about being perfect.
We STRIVE for perfection in Christ. THAT is being obedient - whether we sometimes stumble or not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Consider the context of that quote:

Ezek. 36:22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
Ezek. 36:23 “I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
Ezek. 36:24 “For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
Ezek. 36:25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Ezek. 36:26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezek. 36:27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

The sprinkling of water describes the removal of sin, the new heart symbolizes coming to faith, and the placing of God's Spirit refers to an obedient walk. The Lord is speaking about the way He will bring salvation to the nation of Israel in the last days.

Ezekiel was NOT prescribing a method for Christian baptism. In fact, he was not speaking of baptism at all. The mere fact that God used the term "sprinkling water" poetically to refer to removing Israel's sin does not permit us to twist the meaning of the passage to explain how believers perform water baptism. As demonstrated, Ezekiel was speaking solely about God's plan of salvation for Israel, and in that context he used the term "sprinkling" in an entirely different (and unrelated) context. So, Ezekiel's teaching has nothing to say whatsoever about the proper method for Christian baptism.

Thank you for that rationalization.
Unfortunately - you have given ZERO evidence for your interpretation.

The sprinkling of WATER and the REMOVAL of sin is a polyvalent symbol. In other words - it hase more than one meaning.
In this verse, "Water" is the BAPTISM - and it is ALSO the living Water that is Christ (John 4:13-15, John 7:38).

THIS is how sin is REMOVED, per Scripture - NOT by offering up animal sacrifice as the Jews did.

 

[theefaith]

Right, so you're all for the unification of Church and State. We get it. Pile up the kindling; sharpen the axe; get on with it, right?

Right, so you're all for the unification of Church and State. We get it. Pile up the kindling; sharpen the axe; get on with it, right?

seperation of church and state is not biblical, the church is a kingdom and has authority, and the church must absolutely must influence the state for it to be moral

 

[BarneyFife]

seperation of church and state is not biblical, the church is a kingdom and has authority, and the church must absolutely must influence the state for it to be moral

Got it. In other words: "Pile up the kindling; sharpen the axe. Heretics, as defined by Rome, must die." We understand you, theefaith.

 

[theefaith]

Got it. In other words: "Pile up the kindling; sharpen the axe. Heretics, as defined by Rome, must die." We understand you, theefaith.

no the truth must be defended and they have a choice to recant or repent their errors and be faithful

how many Catholics died under the English reformers for only being catholic which was outlawed????

 

[theefaith]

Got it. In other words: "Pile up the kindling; sharpen the axe. Heretics, as defined by Rome, must die." We understand you, theefaith.

no you don’t understand

The holy church has authority and a duty to defend the truth and therefore to condemn all errors, and heretics for their errors and if they refuse to recant must be turned over to the state, only the state has authority to execute justice! OT precedents 1 kings 18:40 rom 13:4 1 Peter 2:14

I never said anything about murder, Murder is cold blooded premeditated killing and is against the commandment of God!

1. 
   
2. Heresy or error is a very serious matter concerning both divine revelation and the loss of salvation!

 

[BarneyFife]

no the truth must be defended and they have a choice to recant or repent their errors and be faithful

how many Catholics died under the English reformers for only being catholic which was outlawed????

Make up your mind. Is it the church's duty or is it "what's good for the goose...?"

no you don’t understand

The holy church has authority and a duty to defend the truth and therefore to condemn all errors, and heretics for their errors and if they refuse to recant must be turned over to the state, only the state has authority to execute justice! OT precedents 1 kings 18:40 rom 13:4 1 Peter 2:14

I never said anything about murder, Murder is cold blooded premeditated killing and is against the commandment of God!

1. 
   
2. Heresy or error is a very serious matter concerning both divine revelation and the loss of salvation!

I understand perfectly. And the buck stops with Rome, my friend. Murder, execution? Semantics
It's like saying the people in charge of the transport train cattle cars were in no way responsible for the horrors of Nazi concentration camps.
You're busted. You support church/state conspiracy to execute "heretics." You're on record.

 

[David H.]

no you don’t understand

The holy church has authority and a duty to defend the truth and therefore to condemn all errors, and heretics for their errors and if they refuse to recant must be turned over to the state, only the state has authority to execute justice! OT precedents 1 kings 18:40 rom 13:4 1 Peter 2:14

I never said anything about murder, Murder is cold blooded premeditated killing and is against the commandment of God!

1. 
   
2. Heresy or error is a very serious matter concerning both divine revelation and the loss of salvation!

Sounds exactly like militant Islam, This is not the way Jesus set up His church. Or pharisaical Judaism which killed Jesus, read John 18.

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. (2 Thessalonians 1:4-10)

 

[theefaith]

Make up your mind. Is it the church's duty or is it "what's good for the goose...?"


I understand perfectly. And the buck stops with Rome, my friend. Murder, execution? Semantics
It's like saying the people in charge of the transport train cattle cars were in no way responsible for the horrors of Nazi concentration camps.
You're busted. You support church/state conspiracy to execute "heretics." You're on record.

mom one can say the state executing justice is murder???

you believe the Bible alone? Where is seperation of church and state in the bible

 

[theefaith]

Sounds exactly like militant Islam, This is not the way Jesus set up His church. Or pharisaical Judaism which killed Jesus, read John 18.

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. (2 Thessalonians 1:4-10)

not to mention thousands of catholics killed by Protestants especially in England and by the Huguenots in France
And Freemasons in Mexico in the 20’s and by communists

 

[Brakelite]

mom one can say the state executing justice is murder???

you believe the Bible alone? Where is seperation of church and state in the bible

KJV Luke 22:25-26
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

KJV Luke 9:51-56
51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.