Who founded your church?

[FHII]

Christians are persecuted for their love of Jesus. If people are upset with you because you are obnoxious and a pain in everyone's butt, that is not persecution.

Yea... Interesting point. Some Christians can be obnoxious and a pain in the butt. I am not going to say they aren't Christians though. But that isn't thee way that was taught.

 

[Brakelite]

Yup.

Jewish babies entered the Covenant with God by their PARENTS having them circumcized.
Christians babies ebter the NEW Covenant with God by their PARENTS having them Baptized.

So. What you would have us believe is that while Catholics despise "once saved always saved" , you would have us believe that. "once circumcised (or baptised), always saved"? So circumcision saved Jews?

There have been MANY threads about the Church during the time of Nazi Germany on this forum – with MUCH misinformation. Instead of derailing this thread – you can start a new one, where we can talk about the heroic efforts of the Catholic church during the War - including Pius XII’s rescue of thousands of Jews and the Assisi Underground, which was a Franciscan-led rescue of hundreds of Jews.

Mmm. Do you work for Google or Facebook?
What you are saying is...
"We can't talk about that because there's too much misinformation... Let's talk about this instead".
This isn't derailing the thread. Ask those Muslim Serbs 'who founded the church' they were forced to submit to. Jesus,? Jesus founded a church that could justify torturing and murdering millions of Yugoslavs because they weren't Catholic? No. He didn't. But that is what your church is about. Murdering those who disagree with her. Ask @theefaith . He will tell you.

 

[DNB]

That is an interesting point. Romans 12:18 says we should live peaceably with all men as much as lieth in us. However, I head a book by (I think Kissinger) on the first thousand years of Christianity that actually looking to become martyrs. There are verses that glorify those who die in the name of Jesus, but I don't believe he meant to go out and look for such an occasion. The goal is to live in peace and I will add to be prosperous (even as our soul prospers). But still.... Don't sell out even if it means your earthly life.

The problem is that there were verses to support this, but it wasn't the proper context. You don't go out looking for trouble but if it comes, you are to remain faithful. Look at Job! He complained, he didn't like it but he never charged God foolishly. Even though, by the human frame of mind, he was right.

Now we have fasting, and that is uncomfortable, but other than that I see no reason to look for any discomfort in life. However, if it finds us we are supposed to praise God anyway.

Yes, that's right, trials and tribulations are the invariable ramifications of living a life that opposes the devil. There is great glory in God considering one worthy to suffer for Christ (Acts 5:41) (He considers you capable and a reliable testimony), and it glorifies Christ as you refuse to deny him under duress - he is worthy to give up this life for.

But, as you said, pretentiously, or in a misguided and over-confident manner, one should not over-estimate their abilities by challenging the devil without God's prompting (and even this is difficult to verify). Don't look for, or invite trouble or discomfort, life will inevitably and frequently on its own, impose such difficulties upon you whether you're ready or not

But, ascetism and monasteries hide and waste the edification and fortitude that one theoretically gained, from a life of dedicated meditation. Why develop a soldier and have him kept in safety and seclusion?

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, that's right, trials and tribulations are the invariable ramifications of living a life that opposes the devil. There is great glory in God considering one worthy to suffer for Christ (Acts 5:41) (He considers you capable and a reliable testimony), and it glorifies Christ as you refuse to deny him under duress - he is worthy to give up this life for.

But, as you said, pretentiously, or in a misguided and over-confident manner, one should not over-estimate their abilities by challenging the devil without God's prompting (and even this is difficult to verify). Don't look for, or invite trouble or discomfort, life will inevitably and frequently on its own, impose such difficulties upon you whether you're ready or not

But, ascetism and monasteries hide and waste the edification and fortitude that one theoretically gained, from a life of dedicated meditation. Why develop a soldier and have him kept in a box?

Indeed. That box becomes a bushel. And history isn't kind concerning some of the things that took place in the darkness of those convents. Expecting light to not be snuffed out when you deprive it of Oxygen is a bit much.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What is the Lord's will?

GLAD you asked . . .
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Now, we know that "believeing" in Christ is NOT simply mental assent or emotion - because even the DEMONS do that much (James 2:19).
No - "believing" in Christ entails being OBEDIENT to Him:
- Being Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

THIS is the faith that we read about in Scripture (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-26).

 

[BreadOfLife]

These things were obviously not Christian baptism, which didn't exist. He was explaining how salvation is obtained by God washing us clean and us being born anew. Baptism is a symbol of something already accomplished.

Wrong.

As a teacher of the people of Israel - Nicodemus should have been familiar with Ezekiel's prphecy about Baptism and rebirth (Ezek. 36:25-28). THAT'S why Jesus rebuked him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

God is not looking for acts of bravado, senseless and superficial acts of piety. He wants us out on the battlefield, obviously!

Tell that to the Early Martyrs who were fed ALIVE to wild animals.
And it is a SPIRITUAL BATTLE that employs Christians from ALL walks of life:
Married, unmarried, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, pastors, preachers, those in pulic life and tose in private life, etc.

God has a place and a plan for ALL of His flock - and they are NOT the same, nor were they ever meant to be.
You learned NOTHING from Paul's lesson on the Body of Christ:

1 Cor. 12:14-120
For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, AS HE CHOSE. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are MANY PARTS, yet ONE body.

1 Cor. 12:29-31
Are ALL apostles? Are ALL prophets? Are ALL teachers? Do ALL work miracles? Do ALL possess gifts of healing? Do ALL speak with tongues? Do ALL interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

Your spiritual arrogance is pathetic . . .

 

[DNB]

Indeed. That box becomes a bushel. And history isn't kind concerning some of the things that took place in the darkness of those convents. Expecting light to not be snuffed out when you deprive it of Oxygen is a bit much.

Excellent point - it can be argued that such an environment is actually antithetical to what it's trying to achieve!

 

[DNB]

Tell that to the Early Martyrs who were fed ALIVE to wild animals.

Yes, such men that glorified Christ through their faith and death, never would have had a chance to show such conviction and love had they been sheltered in a monastery.
What does it taste like continuously having your foot in your mouth?

 

[BreadOfLife]

So. What you would have us believe is that while Catholics despise "once saved always saved" , you would have us believe that. "once circumcised (or baptised), always saved"? So circumcision saved Jews?

Nope - that would be the SAME fallacy as OSAS.
Salvation is a process - NOT a one-time, slam-dunk event.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

Mmm. Do you work for Google or Facebook?
What you are saying is...
"We can't talk about that because there's too much misinformation... Let's talk about this instead".
This isn't derailing the thread. Ask those Muslim Serbs 'who founded the church' they were forced to submit to. Jesus,? Jesus founded a church that could justify torturing and murdering millions of Yugoslavs because they weren't Catholic? No. He didn't. But that is what your church is about. Murdering those who disagree with her. Ask @theefaith . He will tell you.

THIS thread is "Who founded your church".

My point was that the Catholic Church vs. the Nazis during WWI is not only a derailing of this thread - it is a VAST topic that would require its own thread.
There have been many threads on this topic over the years, which have been FILLED with misinformation, hearesay and really stupid and unbubstatiated rumors.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, such men that glorified Christ through their faith and death, never would have had a chance to show such conviction and love had they been sheltered in a monastery.
What does it taste like continuously having your foot in your mouth?

Then you never heard of the Carthhusian monks who were slaughtered for their faith by the Ottoman invaders near Vienna in 1529.

OR, the FORTY monks in the London charterhouse who were drawn and quartered by Protestant butchers during the English Reformation in 1537.
How about the 800 priests and monks that were rounded up and persecuted during the French Revolution - ALL of whom died by 1794 in captivity because of the inhumane condition?

How does that foot in your mouth taste?

 

[DNB]

Then you never heard of the Carthhusian monks who were slaughtered for their faith by the Ottoman invaders near Vienna in 1529.

OR, the FORTY monks in the London charterhouse who were drawn and quartered by Protestant butchers during the English Reformation in 1537.
How about the 800 priests and monks that were rounded up and persecuted during the French Revolution - ALL of whom died by 1794 in captivity because of the inhumane condition?

How does that foot in your mouth taste?

Being involuntarily slaughtered, is a far cry from being a steadfast martyr. You do know the difference, right? If I get shot sitting in my home, there is no glory for anyone in that, or even while I'm at Church - I never saw it coming.
Savanorole, Tyndale, Hus, Luther, Polycarp, Nero's & Domitian's victims were true martyrs - they were offered to recant.

 

[mjrhealth]

Talk about slinging mud. It must be nice not to have a label to mock. Your anti-everything trolling is really starting to get old. You're worse than Eeyore, who said things like:

“Sure is a cheerful color. Guess I’ll have to get used to it.”

Well discovering you path was the wide way , when Christ is the narrow way. But than the religious always Get angry when you point out that the only way is Christ

 

[Brakelite]

Then you never heard of the Carthhusian monks who were slaughtered for their faith by the Ottoman invaders near Vienna in 1529.

A century or so previous to this Tamerlane wiped out every last vestige of Christianity in the east. Entire communities and cities massacred. Tens of Thousands of martyrs. None of them Catholic.

OR, the FORTY monks in the London charterhouse who were drawn and quartered by Protestant butchers during the English Reformation in 1537.

Any persecution by Protestants was just as reprehensible and wicked as that of Rome. Although a case could be made for two mitigating circumstances...

• It had been Catholic policy for centuries to destroy all opposition to Catholic doctrine... That those who had recently come out of that system still practiced what they had been taught was not a surprise
• Because it was always the Catholic goal to rule England (and elsewhere including the USA... Congratulations on that victory by the way) politically, those executions could be reasonably argued as death sentences for treason... Not religious persecution. Either way I disagree with the practise of any church handing out a death sentence upon others for their different belief... The council of Trent several years after these events confirmed the policy of opposing all dissenters with any and all means at their disposal.

How about the 800 priests and monks that were rounded up and persecuted during the French Revolution - ALL of whom died by 1794 in captivity because of the inhumane condition?

How many Protestants were rounded up by Catholics and butchered 20 years previous in 1572? The French revolution wasn't a war against Catholicism. It was a rejection of all religion hence the enthronement of the goddess of reason and the birth of atheistic communism.

While I cringe at the unnecessary death of any person of any faith at the hands of their religious enemies, I have to remind you that the few Catholic numbers are miniscule in comparison to the numbers of non Catholic victims of persecution throughout the centuries. First at the hands of pagan Rome before papal Rome existed... Then at the hands of papal Rome... And also at the hands of indigenous peoples in lands where missionaries ventured such as in Britain at the hands of picts, vikings, saxons etc., In the east at the hands of islamists and Zoroastrianism and hinduism... All before Catholic missionaries started their persecutions from the 5th or 6th centuries of Christians not willing to surrender to papal authority. Oh, I didn't mention the counter reformation.
In other words, your searching in history for some few instances of Catholics dying for their faith as a mark of fidelity and sacrifice pales into insignificance compared to the whole of history as a testimony of faithfulness and self sacrifice. All shall be rewarded for their selflessness when the time comes... And in the end it ain't be the Catholic Church that will be praised and glorified..Nor any other church... It will be Christ.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yea... Interesting point. Some Christians can be obnoxious and a pain in the butt. I am not going to say they aren't Christians though. But that isn't thee way that was taught.

And also just because people dont like you doesnt means it because you are doing what you think you are doing or if its even right.

 

[theefaith]

What is the Lord's will?

Because it wasn't.

Jn 20 is not scripture?

 

[Renniks]

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Exactly. Yes, we need to be obedient. No, obedience doesn't save us and not one obeys perfectly. In order to be saved by obeying, we would have to be as perfect as Jesus. No one has ever done that, so no one can be saved under your theory.

 

[Renniks]

Jn 20 is not scripture?

Seriously, you don't even read my posts. I already told you what I was replying to there. if you can't go back and find it, forget this conversation. Because you aren't following it.

 

[theefaith]

This post must be one of the most startling confessions of true Catholic policy I've seen on any Forum. Well done @theefaith for your honest and integrity. No other Catholic,@BreadOfLife , @Marymog , @Illuminator it anyone else has admitted the above truth. They would rather hide behind abuse or obfuscation or NLP or pretend the last 1500 years didn't exist.
The really sad thing of course is that @theefaith believes it better that we all be dead because we disagree with papal dogma. But kudos to you thee, at least you have the courage of your convictions to admit it.

It’s not what you think or as you say,

don’t over look all the Catholic martyrs murdered by the Protestants especially in england

 

[theefaith]

Everyone on this forum should read the link to this encyclical. If you desire to understand why the Catholics on this forum despise biblical authority it is clear because the Bible counters so much of Catholic dogma when understood correctly... When understood without the corrupting effects of tradition and superstition.

What Catholics refuse to acknowledge but what genuine history attests to, is the the scriptures were being disseminated throughout the world before Constantine had his 50 Bibles put together.... Before Jerome translated the originals into Latin. The church was already growing exponentially throughout all Asia, Europe, and as far as Britain to the west, expanding also into Assyria, Persia and India to the east and beyond, and those churches, those hundreds of thousands of new converts to Christ, were not converted by tradition and the Latin Vulgate.

until the 20th cent. Most people’s of the world were illiterate that’s why Jesus says to the apostles to teach Matt 28:19
And faith cometh by hearing not reading
And a monk spent his entire life copying one Bible they were very rare, and very expensive, thanks for skipping my point on truth and error!