Hebrews 10:26-31

[marks]

I think somehow we are in the same mind and thinking, that the genuine child of God never intends nor wills to sin. But while having that mind, it does not take away the fact that there is such a thing as unintentional sin and sin committed in ignorance.

I think so too, that we are essentially of the same mind. Maybe that our concepts of sin are a little different.

I start with these two thoughts about the reborn, the child of God. The just shall live by faith, and, all that is not of faith is sin.

It's my choice to trust in God or not. If I'm not trusting in God, I've already entered into the works of the flesh, maybe that's yelling at my wife, maybe it's stealing candy bars from the gas station, and maybe it's preaching in my church.

We either think the mind of Christ, or, we perceive ourselves to be thinking the mind of the flesh. Either we are walking in the Spirit, or we are doing the works of the flesh. And the flesh is purely sinful, hostile to God, and incapable of obedience.

So this is where is see the battles won or lost, as we either take our thoughts captive, or we become deceived by them, thinking that the desires of the flesh are our desires.

Having left off trusting in Jesus for my life, after that, the sin could be this, could be that, could be something that creeps up on us, something not really on our radar, which is what I think some people think of as unintentional sin. But my idea is that I know "the just shall live by faith", and that God has given faith to me, therefore, I'm responsible to walk in that faith. Failing to do so is the decision that allows the works of the flesh to come through, which are all of them sin, as they do not arise from faith in God.

Much love!

PS . . . It's nice to be getting to know you better!!

:)

 

[Grailhunter]

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief” (1 Tim. 1:15)

 

[Grailhunter]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Grailhunter]

1 John 1:9 and 2:2

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

A clarification. When you say past, present , future SINS, do you mean all kinds of sin, intentional and unintentional, deliberate and not deliberate, knowingly or not, small or big?

Thanks

Tong
R1462

If you are still in the scope of time God has allowed for you to repent of your deliberate sin/ unbelief, if he has granted you any, God will receive you.

Just understand, if you make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ and return to deliberately sinning you have entered into unbelief. Not unbelief as in 'I don't know for sure it's all true', but unbelief as in 'I know it's all true, but I don't care'. The dangerous part being people who do this seem to want to cling to the hope they're saved anyway. And the abuse of OSAS in the pulpits of the church is a big reason why.

 

[Tong2020]

It's nice to be getting to know you better!!

:)

Likewise.

Tong
R1464

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Willfully and deliberately sinning, could it happen to one who is genuinely born of God?

Can one who is genuinely born of God reject Christ?

Can a true believer go back to unbelief? Every believer has to settle that for themselves. The important thing is if the 'believer' who finds himself living in the deliberate sin of the unbeliever, whether they never really believed or no longer believe (doesn't matter), they need to repent so they can be saved when Jesus comes back. Because they will not be saved if they remain in the condition they are in.

 

[marks]

In scriptures I can point you to this as an example perhaps.

1 Timothy 1:13
although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Tong
R1452

That's were I see ignorantly committed sins, in those who have not been reborn. They have no options, no choice, they are sinners. Without sin being on the radar really.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have already given Paul’s testimony in Romans 7.

Personally, I believe I have at times unknowingly been selfish to my neighbor. And that is sin, for the commandment says, love your neighbor. At other times, perhaps I had not

I believe this is true to all of us, that at some point in our christian life we have unknowingly and unintentionally been selfish, even those who are dear to us. We have no power over those kind of sins.

Many brethren out there who are new in the faith and are still babes in Christ, perhaps knew not that to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. They most likely have unknowingly and so unintentionally sinned in that sense.

Besides, we can read in scriptures about unintentional sins. They exist and they happen and they are no less sin committed by man, and the man who commits them are nonetheless accountable. The mere fact that the writer of Hebrews qualified the sinning as willful points to the existence of such sins.

So, yes.

Tong
R1451

I think I'm still examining my understanding of sin in the Christian. I believe it's a very different scenario from sin in the unbeliever. I want to give some thought to your post here.

I know there is unintentional sin in the Old Covenant, the covenant of Law. And under that Law, a sacrifice was offered specifically to cover unintentional sins.

But I still think that this has become completely and fundamentally different in the reborn. That this whole idea of sin and what it is has become completely different.

That we are new creations, with a new life, and anything not in that life is falling short of the glory of Christ within us. Something like that. I want to give this some thought.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just understand, if you make a decision to walk away from faith in Christ and return to deliberately sinning you have entered into unbelief. Not unbelief as in 'I don't know for sure it's all true', but unbelief as in 'I know it's all true, but I don't care'. The dangerous part being people who do this seem to want to cling to the hope they're saved anyway. And the abuse of OSAS in the pulpits of the church is a big reason why.

Again, this is quiet the pronouncement, but it's not Scriptural.

And laying this at the feet of "OSAS" doctrine shows a very muddied understanding of what that doctrine is, in my opinion.

Again, I get the idea that you are desiring to introduce doubt into the minds of God's children. That seems rather dangerous, again, in my opinion.

The first thing you need to get settled in your heart and mind, in my opinion, is the permanence of our rebirth.

I read your posts continually repeating this same non-Scriptural statement over and over, equating what you call "deliberate sin" with walking away from someone's saving faith in Christ. This simply shows a lack of understanding of what being born again is.

You say, It doesn't matter whether someone was born again or not, but in fact, that's exactly what does matter.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In scriptures I can point you to this as an example perhaps.

1 Timothy 1:13
although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Tong
R1452

Notice that it was his ignorance that allowed him to obtain God's mercy. Had he rejected the revelation of Jesus on the road to Emmaus and willfully continued to sin from that point onward the door of mercy would begin to close until such a time as God gave him over to his decision to not believe. And no repentance would be allowed from that point onward.

 

[mjrhealth]

Assuming you're talking about deliberate sin, Christ said you are IN DANGER of hell fire. Willingly persist in it and you will in fact be judged as an unbeliever at the return of Christ.

Yes christians love sin, its all they talk about.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You say, It doesn't matter whether someone was born again or not, but in fact, that's exactly what does matter.

Why? If you're in unbelief, what does it matter if you never really believed, or whether you stopped believing? The point is, you're in unbelief and on your way to hell either way. That's why I say each of us can decide for ourselves whether OSAS is true or not, but the immovable truth that's not up for legitimate debate is the fact that if you're in unbelief, no matter why or how you got there, you're not ready to stand before Christ when he comes back.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

what you believe the words "willful sin" mean.

Sin is wilfulness and wilfulness is sin. There is no such thing as not wilful sin and there is no such thing as not sin against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sin is wilfulness and wilfulness is sin. There is no such thing as not wilful sin and there is no such thing as not sin against the Holy Spirit.

Numbers 15:29-31
29One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30“ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’ ”


Deuteronomy 29:19-20
19When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them.

Hebrews 10:28-29
28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

[FHII]

1.) If you are sitting in a Church, listening to a person in a Pulpit who has "fallen from Grace", then they will teach this heresy..
= "if you sin willfully, as found in Hebrews 10", then you have lost your salvation or will.
So, that is the error of a seriously carnal self righteous person who , first of all, is not honest. As every Christian both dead or still breathing has at least one time, sinned, knowing you were sinning. And this is """willfully.""""...Reader.
So, to pretend on a Forum or in real life... that this has not occurred since you were saved.... is to lie, knowingly, ....and that would be one more "willful sin" you've committed.
So do not pretend that all your sin was an accident that you never meant to do, or maybe God will bring to your mind all the R-rated movies and R rated Music, and R Rated Cable TV shows you have sit there and ENJOYED.
Believe me, i can find your sin on the list, and God already watched you do it, AFTER you were born again.
So, just be honest, in your own heart, and realize reality.
That's what we all have to do

I had to read this a few times to figure out what you were saying. The reason isn't because you weren't clear (though wordy, it was clear), but why you were addressing it to me. I absolutely agree that we all have sinned and did so willfully and even after we have received the knowledge of the truth. I also believe that grace through faith covers such sins of the flesh (whether they are willful or not).

You mentioned the phrase "fallen from grace". Nice touch and a very powerful point if people understand where that phrase comes from!

2.) So, when looking at Hebrews 10, and regarding this "willful" sinning, we have to realize that if that verse was talking to a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN, then we are all going to go to hell.
So, that is how you know, first of all, that this verse is not talking to a Christian, and so, when you hear someone trying to condemn a believer with this Chapter and those verses, you are dealing with a Legalist, who is fallen from Grace, or you are dealing with a non-Christian who is very Religious and has no idea that their water baptism confirmation moment, did not save them.

I might disagree with the notion that Hebrews isn't addressed to a Christian. I won't press that too hard, however, because its clear throughout the entire epistle that the author had to either correct or educate some beliefs which were undoubtedly of Hebrew converts or prospects. Or perhaps they were indeed of those who weren't Christian at all. I haven't looked at it in this light.

Hebrews 10, is showing you an Apostle, a Jew, who is dealing with hateful Christ rejecting Jews. (Hebrews).
This Apostle has given them the "signs of an apostle", 2nd Corinthians 12:12.. as this is a heavenly Gift that an Apostle manifests that proves you are a real Apostle, and that is the : "tasted the heavenly gift", part of the verse..
So, these Hebrews, are hearing the Gospel with signs following the Apostle Paul who is showing them..
And they knowingly, (willfully) reject their Messiah......anyway.
And to do that, Paul explains.....is to "crucify Jesus afresh".....with the context being....."same as your Father's did" when they rejected Him and screamed= "Crucify Him".
So, Paul is explaining to them what they are doing, and the dire consequence of their WILLFUL CHOICE = to REJECT THEIR MESSIAH.

He explains that if they reject their Messiah then they will "die in their sin", John 8:24 because they have rejected Jesus's offer of redemption. = "there remains no more sacrifice'"" for these Christ rejecting HEBREWS.
This means....if you reject the pardon, there is no pardon for you, later.
If you reject the cure, there is no cure for you, later.

Turn to Acts 28, and read the last 10 verses.
You will find Paul, once again, dealing with another SET , GROUP< of Hebrew Christ rejectors.
Its the same thing again, that you find in Hebrews 10.

Very interesting and thoughtful. Again, I may disagree with the notion that the author was speaking to "hateful" Hebrews. But like I said, I haven't looked at the chapter in that light. Even sl, either way it doesn't change my perspective on Hebrews 10:26-29:

1. The "willful sin" is not sins of the flesh, which are covered by grace through faith. And yes, I do believe Christ's sacrifice covers past, present and future sins whether they were willful, forced or you just dreamed them.
2. The "willful sin" is not holding fast to faith. In other words, losing faith and not believing Christ's sacrifice is sufficient, or perhaps, not believing in it at all. Hebrew 6:4-6, 10:22 and 10:38-39 in this book alone support that.
3. I know it bugs people, but verse 25 still exists. It still is part of the same sentence as verse 22 and 23.

In any sense, I agree with your overall points. I am just wondering if you were in objection to something I said or were merely expounding and supporting what I said.

Either way, I appreciate your post.

 

[justbyfaith]

the Old Covenant is obsolete and fades away.

However, this is not true also of the law. For the law is written on the hearts and in the minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5).

Willfully and deliberately sinning, could it happen to one who is genuinely born of God?

No (1 John 3:9).

yes yours is in part mine is in FULL.

hope this helps !!!

Where is the biblical substantiation for your pov?

I have given substantiation for mine.

That mine has substantiation in the scriptures and my experience only shows forth that it is more trustworthy as a doctrine. if yours has substantiation in scripture but not experience than it is less trustworthy as a doctrine.

So, to pretend on a Forum or in real life... that this has not occurred since you were saved.... is to lie, knowingly, ....and that would be one more "willful sin" you've committed.
So do not pretend that all your sin was an accident that you never meant to do, or maybe God will bring to your mind all the R-rated movies and R rated Music, and R Rated Cable TV shows you have sit there and ENJOYED.
Believe me, i can find your sin on the list, and God already watched you do it, AFTER you were born again.
So, just be honest, in your own heart, and realize reality.
That's what we all have to do.

From Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

1

1 I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law—I am not obligated to obey the law for my salvation. Romans 6:14, 7:4, 7:6.

2 But because I am saved, I desire to obey the word, including the law of the Old Testament—I desire to obey the law because I am saved.

3 If I fail to obey the law, I am not condemned—but because I am not condemned—because I am born of God—1 John 3:9—I will not fail to obey the law.

4 If I fail to obey the law, the Lord will not impute it to me as sin—Romans 4:8. Now I cannot sin because I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law—and sin is the transgression of the law. Because where the law does not apply, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15, 5:13.

5 Therefore I am perfect in Christ no matter what I do—and yet this is predicated on a heart that desires to obey the Lord and all of His commandments—and He is the God of the Old and New Testaments.

6 Because I am born of God I don’t want to sin and I don’t have to sin. Therefore I cannot sin, not because I couldn’t go down that path if I wanted to, but because I don’t want to and don’t have to go down that path.

7 I am under the law to Christ in that I willingly subject myself to the law of God because I am spiritually-minded. Romans 8:7.

I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, in saying that I have not committed any willful sin since receiving the "second benefit" (2 Corinthians 1:15) of entire sanctification (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv)).

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

It should be clear that 1 John 1:8 is referring to indwelling sin and not practical sins.

We all have sin...sin dwelling on the inside of us as an element...however this element can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Sin is wilfulness and wilfulness is sin. There is no such thing as not wilful sin and there is no such thing as not sin against the Holy Spirit.

Why then does God, in Hebrews 10:26-31, specify willful sins as being the kinds of sins by which a man will be condemned? Why didn't He just leave out the adjective "willful"?

 

[Grailhunter]

However, this is not true also of the law. For the law is written on the hearts and in the minds of new Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5).

How untrue is this. We can go through each one of these but it really did not happen. Even today only a very small percentage of Christians actually know the 613 Mosaic Laws. They want to get on a soap box and proclaim that they believe in the law...but how can you believe in the law when you do not know it or practice it. God's law is now Christ's teachings, which surpasses anything in the Jewish religion. The 613 Mosaic Laws are not included in Christ's teachings, but rather perfected. If you want to be a Jew...by all means be a Jew but as Christ said you cannot put new wine in old wine skins because you will ruin both.

Even the early Christians new very little about the Old Testament. The first Bibles did not include the Old Testament. That came centuries later after Constantine.

 

[justbyfaith]

Most assuredly, we are no longer bound by the letter of the law but are obedient to the spirit of it as believers (Romans 7:6).

But the scriptures that I have given to substantiate my pov stand as a testimony to the fact that the law has not been done away with; and I will add here to them, Matthew 5:17-20.

 

[Grailhunter]

Most assuredly, we are no longer bound by the letter of the law but are obedient to the spirit of it as believers (Romans 7:6).

But the scriptures that I have given to substantiate my pov stand as a testimony to the fact that the law has not been done away with; and I will add here to them, Matthew 5:17-20.

Most assuredly, we are no longer bound by the letter of the law but are obedient to the spirit of it as believers (Romans 7:6).

No no no! I will not even give you an inch. Ministry of death and condemnation as quoted by the Apostle Paul. That is the spirit of the Law and the Jewish religion. You do not want the Law or the spirit of the Law in Christianity. The Mosaic Law was cruel and misogyny. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children! It does not matter if it is polygamy, selling your daughter as a sex slave, or killing disobedient children or cutting baby penises, or killing all that breaths and don't forget the little ones....all of that Mosaic Laws and none of that way of thinking or spirit of morality or character belongs in Christianity...that is why the Apostle Paul fought against it so hard.