Hebrews 10:26-31

[Tong2020]

I think I'm still examining my understanding of sin in the Christian. I believe it's a very different scenario from sin in the unbeliever. I want to give some thought to your post here.

I know there is unintentional sin in the Old Covenant, the covenant of Law. And under that Law, a sacrifice was offered specifically to cover unintentional sins.

But I still think that this has become completely and fundamentally different in the reborn. That this whole idea of sin and what it is has become completely different.

That we are new creations, with a new life, and anything not in that life is falling short of the glory of Christ within us. Something like that. I want to give this some thought.

Much love!

That’s a noble thing to do. And I would love to be a part of that, if you would like. I am interested in that, if there is truth in what you think about sin there, it would somehow have an impact on other doctrines pertaining to the Christian.

Tong
R1468

 

[Tong2020]

Notice that it was his ignorance that allowed him to obtain God's mercy. Had he rejected the revelation of Jesus on the road to Emmaus and willfully continued to sin from that point onward the door of mercy would begin to close until such a time as God gave him over to his decision to not believe. And no repentance would be allowed from that point onward.

Yes, it appears to be what you say there concerning Paul’s obtaining mercy.

Ignorance may well be why one obtains mercy as it appears to be with Paul. Notice also that it was Jesus who chose to have mercy on him. He did not obtain mercy because he sought it, but obtained it because God had chosen to have mercy on him.

I don’t go with the rest of your thinking. What I believe is that when God had chosen to save a person, that person will be saved. God will accomplish His will.

Tong
R1469

 

[Tong2020]

Why? If you're in unbelief, what does it matter if you never really believed, or whether you stopped believing? The point is, you're in unbelief and on your way to hell either way. That's why I say each of us can decide for ourselves whether OSAS is true or not, but the immovable truth that's not up for legitimate debate is the fact that if you're in unbelief, no matter why or how you got there, you're not ready to stand before Christ when he comes back.

I see none here that has a problem or does not agree with the truth that if one is in unbelief or does not believe in the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, he is under condemnation and does not have Christ to stand for him.

Why I think that many seems to have a debate on the subject of OSAS, is a matter of standing for what is the truth in regards to that, if not to get to the truth of that. It may not be all that important to you, but that does not follow that it should not also be to all. I believe the truth sets us free in all things.

Tong
R1470

 

[Grailhunter]

So, @Grailhunter, show forth the scriptures that oppose what I have been saying with scripture so that we can both go about the process of solving things that have not yet been solved by Christian minds.

@justbyfaith
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are wanting...The scriptures I presented are absolute and in context, with no hit of reprieve.
First you have to get past them....You can present contradicting scriptures, but that does not help or resolve anything.

Post 329

 

[Tong2020]

Numbers 15:29-31
29One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.

30“ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31Because they have despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’ ”


Deuteronomy 29:19-20
19When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them.

Hebrews 10:28-29
28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Interesting.

With regard “willful sin” then in Hebrews 10:26, is it the same with the sin spoken of in Numbers 15:30-31?

Tong
R1470

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What I believe is that when God had chosen to save a person, that person will be saved. God will accomplish His will.

Being chosen IS being saved. But God will not choose everybody. Although that is his express will and desire.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

With regard “willful sin” then in Hebrews 10:26, is it the same with the sin spoken of in Numbers 15:30-31?

Yes. That's the exact point I've been trying to make. Hebrews 10:26-31 is just a reiteration of Numbers 15:30-31 and Deuteronomy 29:18-20 (Hebrews 10:28 shows us that the author is making that connection). You can't reject covenant with God by going your own way and somehow be in covenant with God. Note in Deuteronomy 29:19 how the person who does that does so in the false thinking that he is safe in doing that. That's not at all unlike today how Christians take false comfort in believing they can 'go their own way' in a departure from Christ and still be safe in covenant with God. We call that 'once saved always saved'. Jeremiah also spoke against that false thinking in Jeremiah 7:9.

We see in many places in the Bible where the old testament scriptures are the inspiration for the new. Hebrews 10:26-31 is one of those. When Christ came the old testament scriptures did not cease being the holy scriptures of their day. This single point is perhaps the biggest reason why the church lacks scriptural insight into the New Testament, and as a result has invented so many false theologies.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Willfully and deliberately sinning, could it happen to one who is genuinely born of God?

No (1 John 3:9).

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That is if one takes the passage out of context.

Have you not sinned since you were converted? If so, does that mean you are not genuinely born of God?

Context is very important, which many seems to ignore or consider in their reading of passages in scriptures that results to many erroneous beliefs.

Tong
R1472

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I see none here that has a problem or does not agree with the truth that if one is in unbelief or does not believe in the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, he is under condemnation and does have Christ to stand for him.

Did you mean to say "and does NOT have Christ to stand for him"? If so, @Blood Bought 1953 teaches that the 'Christian' is saved even if he is in unbelief. I don't know how this absurd teaching escapes the notice of so many Christians. So there are people here who do not agree with the truth that if one is in unbelief that they are under condemnation and do not have Christ to stand for them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Have you not sinned since you were converted? If so, does that mean you are not genuinely born of God?

And so we know John is talking about something specific in regard to sinning, not just simply sinning as sinner and saint do alike. There is something different with the sinning of the unsaved person and the sinning of the saved person. And it has nothing to do with the Christian getting away with his sinning while the unbeliever does not.

The unsaved person is in bondage to his sin and lives in it as a matter of practice, like a slave in service to his task master. His mind is set on the things of the flesh and how he can please it, and so he lives in the things of the flesh, on purpose even. He wages a war with righteousness. Righteousness is the alien, uncomfortable thing to him. Though he may succumb to it on occasion.

Meanwhile, the saved person is not in bondage to sin (whether he knows it or not) and does not live in it as a matter of practice. His mind is set on the things of the Spirit and how he can please God, and so he lives in the Spirit, on purpose even. He wages a war with the flesh and unrighteousness, not with righteousness as the unsaved person does. Unrighteousness is the alien, uncomfortable thing to him. Though he may succumb to it on occasion.

The relationship with sin you identify with indicates which person you are, born again or not born again. But the church will tell you to forget all that and just know you're saved because you say you believe in Christ. The church does not tell you that your relationship with sin and how you act is how you know if you are saved. And so many people are deceived into thinking they are saved and ready to meet Christ when in fact they are not. There are many teachers of this deception in the church today.

 

[Tong2020]

Heb 8:8, For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9, Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

I believe as you do that we are now in the new covenant times. That is why I asked in this thread, what were the laws put in your mind and were written in your heart? No one can answer that for you unless you have told them. So could you and would you tell me?

This goes also to them who believes that they are under the new covenant.

Tong
R1473

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It (OSAS) may not be all that important to you, but that does not follow that it should not also be to all.

What does it matter to the person who is in unbelief? You have to be saved for a OSAS argument to mean anything. The problem is people are using OSAS to justify sin and unbelief. Whether OSAS is true or not, using OSAS to justify spiritual failure and unbelief is not what it should be used for. OSAS, whether true or not, is a curious discussion for devout, believing people, not unconverted people looking to excuse an unconverted life.

Make sure you're saved. Then talk about whether or not you can lose your salvation if you want. But, by virtue of always making sure you're saved, as the Bible exhorts us to do, you'll never have to wonder if you can lose your salvation.

 

[Tong2020]

Me too. That's why I don't deliberately sin. I sin under duress. But let's not forget Paul's warning to continue in his kindness and not be high minded, for God will not spare us either if we slip into unbelief.

And I too would not consider to deliberately sin. But my question to you is, as it seems to me that you do, do you believe it is a possibility and it could happen even to you, to walk away from faith in Christ or to reject Christ?

Tong
R1474

 

[mjrhealth]

Being chosen IS being saved. But God will not choose everybody. Although that is his express will and desire.

Jesus died for the sins of all men, even those who died before His death, God chose all men. doesnt mean all men will do God will and choose salvation otherwise Christs death was in vain.

 

[Tong2020]

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Romans 11:17-22

You can argue all day long about what not being spared and being cut off actually means if you want, but one thing that is clear he's warning people who stand by faith to continue in his kindness. The Galatians and the Corinthians both fell away from the gospel they heard and believed and were saved by. Apparently, the Hebrew church was contemplating doing the same.

I was not even arguing. I was simply asking the questions. And it surprises me you seem to not able to give a straight answer.

Well, if you can’t give me a straight answer that I would not be guessing what it is you believe, there’s nothing I can do but guess and not know what it is you believe.

Tong
R1475

 

[Tong2020]

Being chosen IS being saved. But God will not choose everybody. Although that is his express will and desire.

No He won’t.

I’d like to know, do you believe or agree that when God had chosen to save a person, that person will be saved? That God will accomplish His will and saved them who He had chosen to save?

Tong
R1476

 

[Tong2020]

Yes. That's the exact point I've been trying to make. Hebrews 10:26-31 is just a reiteration of Numbers 15:30-31 and Deuteronomy 29:18-20 (Hebrews 10:28 shows us that the author is making that connection). You can't reject covenant with God by going your own way and somehow be in covenant with God. Note in Deuteronomy 29:19 how the person who does that does so in the false thinking that he is safe in doing that. That's not at all unlike today how Christians take false comfort in believing they can 'go their own way' in a departure from Christ and still be safe in covenant with God. We call that 'once saved always saved'. Jeremiah also spoke against that false thinking in Jeremiah 7:9.

We see in many places in the Bible where the old testament scriptures are the inspiration for the new. Hebrews 10:26-31 is one of those. When Christ came the old testament scriptures did not cease being the holy scriptures of their day. This single point is perhaps the biggest reason why the church lacks scriptural insight into the New Testament, and as a result has invented so many false theologies.

Firstly, I don’t believe that there are genuine Christians out there that have such take, more so find comfort in such, that they can 'go their own way' in a departure from Christ and still be safe in covenant with God.

Now going back. So you take the willful sin in Hebrews 10:26 to be the same sin spoken of in Numbers 15:30-31.

But, is not the law in Numbers 15:30-31 a law to those who are under the old covenant of which had already been replaced by the new covenant? Such law binds all those who are under the law, which are those of the circumcision. If the writer of Hebrews was addressing them, I would not have any problem with that. But he is addressing the Christians, those who are no longer under the law but are under the new covenant. Was the writer under the law as he identifies with them to whom he writes saying “We”? Obviously not. So, that’s problematic.

Another is that, if the writer is applying that law to the Christians, then the punishment for that would be that specified in that law, right? And that is, he shall be cut off from among his people, that is, he will be put to death, physically that is. Then there is the question, from whom will he be cut off? Who are his people? In the OT that would be the people of the circumcision. And that is what happens if we apply the law to Christians.

Another is that, in that law, the said sin does not even constitute one that is continuing, which in your take that that spoken of in Heb.10:26 is of a continuing nature. So, in that sense, they are not the same sin.

Still another is that, you said that, if the Christian is guilty of a willful sin but came to repentance, he will be shown mercy and will be forgiven and his willful sin will be covered by the sacrifice of Christ. But then, there is no forgiveness for such willful sin spoken in Numbers 15:30-31, as also there is not a sacrifice for such sin for it to be forgiven. That doesn’t fit well with Heb.10:26, where it says “there no longer remains sacrifices for sins”.

I think there’s. But I think that’s already a lot to consider.

Tong
R1477

 

[Tong2020]

Did you mean to say "and does NOT have Christ to stand for him"? If so, @Blood Bought 1953 teaches that the 'Christian' is saved even if he is in unbelief. I don't know how this absurd teaching escapes the notice of so many Christians. So there are people here who do not agree with the truth that if one is in unbelief that they are under condemnation and do not have Christ to stand for them.

Yes it’s suppose to be NOT have. Thanks for that.

Tong
R1478

 

[Tong2020]

And so we know John is talking about something specific in regard to sinning, not just simply sinning as sinner and saint do alike. There is something different with the sinning of the unsaved person and the sinning of the saved person. And it has nothing to do with the Christian getting away with his sinning while the unbeliever does not.

I think not that John was talking about something specific. This is why I say context is very important in reading a passage. If you are looking at the kind of sin in that passage then you are missing the point.

The unsaved person is in bondage to his sin and lives in it as a matter of practice, like a slave in service to his task master. His mind is set on the things of the flesh and how he can please it, and so he lives in the things of the flesh, on purpose even. He wages a war with righteousness. Righteousness is the alien, uncomfortable thing to him. Though he may succumb to it on occasion.

Yes the unbeliever remains to be a slave of sin.

Meanwhile, the saved person is not in bondage to sin (whether he knows it or not) and does not live in it as a matter of practice. His mind is set on the things of the Spirit and how he can please God, and so he lives in the Spirit, on purpose even. He wages a war with the flesh and unrighteousness, not with righteousness as the unsaved person does. Unrighteousness is the alien, uncomfortable thing to him. Though he may succumb to it on occasion.

Yes, he is a slave of God, just to give contrast to the unbeliever who is a slave of sin.

The relationship with sin you identify with indicates which person you are, born again or not born again. But the church will tell you to forget all that and just know you're saved because you say you believe in Christ. The church does not tell you that your relationship with sin and how you act is how you know if you are saved. And so many people are deceived into thinking they are saved and ready to meet Christ when in fact they are not. There are many teachers of this deception in the church today.

What church? Certainly you are not referring to the body of Christ, right?

Tong
R1479

 

[Tong2020]

What does it matter to the person who is in unbelief? You have to be saved for a OSAS argument to mean anything. The problem is people are using OSAS to justify sin and unbelief. Whether OSAS is true or not, using OSAS to justify spiritual failure and unbelief is not what it should be used for. OSAS, whether true or not, is a curious discussion for devout, believing people, not unconverted people looking to excuse an unconverted life.

To the person who is in unbelief, yes it does not matter. In fact, no truth matters to him. But to the believer, truth does matter and always matter.

I haven’t encountered a poster here, so far, that use OSAS to justify sin and unbelief. If you have then I am with you against such teaching.

Make sure you're saved. Then talk about whether or not you can lose your salvation if you want. But, by virtue of always making sure you're saved, as the Bible exhorts us to do, you'll never have to wonder if you can lose your salvation.

So you think that those who hold to the doctrine of OSAS here are not into making their election sure? How could you tell?

A debate discussion of OSAS is I believe not coming from or springing ounot having to wonder if you can lose your salvation or not. As I said, I must believe these people on each camp are into such as standing up for what they get to understand in their reading as the truth.

Tong
R1480