Does the Holy Spirit come "in" (John 14:17, etc.) at salvation?
Or at the born-again experience?
Or are they one and the same thing?
I take it none of you believes that the Holy Spirit baptism is an additional infilling.
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Fire also burns up the unrighteousness in saints....I have no problem with people saying God is a consuming fire and meaning it as a means of purifying. But in the context, I believe John was speaking of a judgement here when he mentions the fire.
We can say that people have or have not the Spirit - if you read Acts (and Jude 19) it is clear that it was known precisely when people received God's (invisible) Spirit (Acts 10:44-46), and it was known that believers had not yet received (Acts 8:12-16, 19:5)... WE can not say someone does not have the Spirit because they do not speak in tongues, do miracles, etc. For Paul says if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. (Romans 8:9)
Not sure where you get the 10 days from?Jesus sends the Spirit (10 days after his ascension)
Same thing, synonymous terms.(see for example Acts 11:14-18)
Does the Holy Spirit come "in" (John 14:17, etc.) at salvation?
Or at the born-again experience?
Or are they one and the same thing?
I take it none of you believes that the Holy Spirit baptism is an additional infilling.
Fire also burns up the unrighteousness in saints.
"better to be hot now than later".
The word "and" is kai in the greek which means "even".
The fiery zeal of God replaces the old ways of those that allow him to live and work in them.
We can say that people have or have not the Spirit - if you read Acts (and Jude 19) it is clear that it was known precisely when people received God's (invisible) Spirit (Acts 10:44-46), and it was known that believers had not yet received (Acts 8:12-16, 19:5)
Not sure where you get the 10 days from?
Does the Holy Spirit come "in" (John 14:17, etc.) at salvation?
Or at the born-again experience?
Or are they one and the same thing?
I take it none of you believes that the Holy Spirit baptism is an additional infilling.
I can't think of a verse that specifically says tyhat, but that is the whole ministry of Jesus under the new covenant!Can you show me specifically where it says God burns up the unrighteousness in saints? Passages always help.
kai is also translated "and" here:Kai is used for the word "and" in the text so I believe it is translated properly
Look again:and the very next passage tells us who the fire is reserved for. Wheat (saints) are gathered into the garner. Chaff (unrighteous) are burned.
It refers to praying in the Holy Spirit which 1 Corintiansd 14:14-18 says is praying in tongues.Jude 18-20 does not say anything about a visible manifestation of the Spirit.
the answer is freely given in the scriptures you have already read!Acts 10:44-46 deals with the Gentiles coming into the church. If we use it as an example, then should we also ask why Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit before baptism by water? In verse 47 Peter asks why should the Gentiles be forbidden from being baptized since they already had the Holy Spirit. Does baptism come before the Holy Spirit's manifestation or no?
If you believe Acts 2:33 & 39 where Peter states (under the Holy Spirit) that this promise (of the Spirit, evidenced by tongues) is to all who God will call, then you know (1) how Philip and the other Christians knew that the believing Samariansd had not yet received the Spirit and (2) how it was known precisely whan they received, and what was seen that hadn't already been manifest.Acts 8:12-16 is tricky. Apparently there was a visible manifestation of the Spirit, but we are not told exactly what it was. Tongues (languages) is not mentioned.
Look again: in Acts 2 the Spirit is not transferred by apostles, He comes direct to all (including 108 non-apostles), from Jesus.And note in each example, it is the apostles who have this ability to transfer the Holy Spirit. The apostles are always present. Are there apostles today? Also, a new group (the Samaritans) is coming into the church.
OK, small point.As for 10 days to the feast of Weeks (Pentecost), Pentecost means fiftieth day. I will double-check my numbers, but 10 days after the ascension to Pentecost is a counting of the days from Jesus' resurrection (Passover?) and Him being with the apostles for 40 days, leaving 10 days til the Spirit's arrival (some count it as 9). The Spirit's arrival had to be on Pentecost, because God had set it up that way and had laid out the feasts (appointed times) in the OT. It was no arbitrary day that the Holy Spirit fell and the church was born. It corresponds with the giving of the Law in the OT at Mount Sinai. The old covenant was written on tablets of stone, the New covenant is written on the heart. In Ezek. 36:26- 27 God addresses this as well as promises them the Spirit (just one place from the OT).
I can't think of a verse that specifically says tyhat, but that is the whole ministry of Jesus under the new covenant!
Here's the nearest I can think of:
Isaiah 4:4: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
1John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us (the saints) from all unrighteousness.
Gal. 5:15-17: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Kind of stretch there.
kai is also translated "and" here:
" to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful" (Eph.1:1)
So, do you believe Paul was writing to 2 separate groups of people in Ephesus... group (1) "the saints", group (2): "the faithful" ?
Vine's bible disctionary goes into detail on this word kai.
Context again. In the context of Eph. 1:1, Paul is speaking of one group.
Look again:
M't:3:12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Note: it does not say that the fire is "reserved" for the chaff.
It most certainly does. Chaff was not gathered. Who is gathered? The wheat (believers). Ps. 1:4 tells us the chaff is imagery used for the ungodly. John's listeners would have understood this imagery.
It refers to praying in the Holy Spirit which 1 Corintiansd 14:14-18 says is praying in tongues.
Does not say praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit. And what do you mean by "tongues"? Are tongues languages or some language unknown to the one doing the praying?
the answer is freely given in the scriptures you have already read!
Either. They are separate things.
So, you don't have to be baptised in water in order to receive God's Spirit, but it is still commanded to people seeking salvation.
If you believe Acts 2:33 & 39 where Peter states (under the Holy Spirit) that this promise (of the Spirit, evidenced by tongues) is to all who God will call, then you know (1) how Philip and the other Christians knew that the believing Samariansd had not yet received the Spirit and (2) how it was known precisely whan they received, and what was seen that hadn't already been manifest.
Tongues was not the gift, The pouring out of the Spirit was the gift. The Law written on the heart was the promise. The Spirit and tongues are not the same. And again, what do we mean by "tongues"?
Look again: in Acts 2 the Spirit is not transferred by apostles, He comes direct to all (including 108 non-apostles), from Jesus.
John the baptist said that Jesus personally would baptise in the Spirit, another verse says that Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, theer is no 2nd level of mediation to receive Jesus.
Hebrews says that Jesus is the apostle & high priest of the faith.
The apostles were always present when the gift of tongues manifested itself. That was the point. The Samaritans had been baptized in Jesus' name, but had not received the Spirit. They had to wait on the apostles (Jews) before they could receive the Spirit. REmember, there was a contention between the Jews and Samaritans regarding proper worship (see John 4 about this)
The apostles themselves never once claim that they need to be present for people to receive the Spirit.
They didn't claim it, but they are always present when it is done in the book of Acts, no?
Philip was alone in Samaria, the apostles came to help minister, to teach that it is because the Spirit cannot be given unless they are around is pure surmising.
Jesus taught that the Spirit is given to those who thirst for him, no conditions and copmplications.
There was not an apostle at each church all the time, so according to this idea you present, people cannot receive the Spirit and be saved in those churches at times!
I never made the claim regarding the apostles being present. But again, what do we mean by "tongues"? That is really at the heart of this issue. The Holy Spirit is not the tongues, neither are we told that one receiving the Spirit must accompanied by "tongues"? So let's settle this question of what we, or better yet the Scriptures, mean by tongues.
OK, small point.
Miraculous unlearned language for praying to God (not preaching to men as some teach).Forgive me, I'm new to responding to point by point. But what again, do we mean by "tongues", since that really is part of the issue.
Miraculous unlearned language for praying to God (not preaching to men as some teach).
" they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4)
"he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God" (1 Cor. 14:2)
Why doeas the Holy Spirit lead God's children that way?
"for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)
That is exactly what I thought you would say and I must respectfully disagree with the definition you listed for tongues.
We can discuss Acts 2 a little more if you wish and you will see why I truly believe the scripture does not teach it is an unknown/heavenly/spiritual language.
Btw, I've spent the last 12 years in Pentecostal circles, so I've got some first-hand experience with this teaching.
It is possible that someone else will recognize some of what is said when used in a public situation, this has happened a few times in our meetings,
but they didn't understand the gospel as a result of this, we still spoke to them in the common learned language after.
Okay, since you are so adamantly against what I am trying to teach,No, the baptism in the Spirit is a synomymous term for receiving or being born of the Holy Spirit.
It is receiving the new Life, salvation. I don't believe you have received this revelation
so you say what you have been taught by men.
Of course, you don't honestly believe that God has done away with some or all of these his workings do you?
Do you believe that the 9 spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11,
these gifts which are used all over the world in churches, and by evangelists,
missionaries, etc. are for today?
I asked you the question because I thought your honest answer would be, "NO".Of course, you don't honestly believe that God has done away with some or all of these his workings do you?
Please specify your belief.
I asked you the question because I thought your honest answer would be, "NO".
Do you realize that ALL (or 99.9%) of the Christians genuinely involved in the 9 spiritual gifts
in churches and in evangelism world-wide have been given ...
the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?
...
I asked you the question because I thought your honest answer would be, "NO".
Do you realize that ALL (or 99.9%) of the Christians genuinely involved in the 9 spiritual gifts
in churches and in evangelism world-wide have been given ...
the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?
For people involved in these areas, the power has come from one of two sources:
1) from God, as explained above
or
2) from Satan
Every Christian believer receives The Holy Spirit as well as a ministering Angel. There are various gifts of The Holy Spirit given to various Christians , and various fruits of The Spirit can be observed among some Christians. .
Anyone claiming to have an extra special portion of Holy Spirit is really wanting to express his view that he is a better Christian than the other "dead ones".
That is the motive. It is mostly boasting with little else actually accomplished.
I find those who actually acomplish a lot do not boast a lot.
A. Martin W.
Instead of building one another up we succumb to pride and jealousy; the double sided coin which won't even buy a cup of coffee on the streets of the Holy City of God.
Let us rather put aside these childish things in order that we may worship and seek God as He has led us, firm in the conviction that our primary gift is to trust and obey our good Father in Heaven.