The Baptism With The Holy Spirit (A Scriptural Study)

[John Zain]

How are you measuring that claim? What is your documentation?

From experience, spiritual understanding, etc.
Find me one person who is genuinely working in any of these gifts
and who does NOT have this baptism with the tongues confirmation.

I do not have the gift of tounges, but I spoke in tongues once.
It was when I received this baptism.
It was confirmed by everyone on the stage where I was facing at the time:
my pastor and his wife, a visiting evangelist and his wife, my wife, the piano player, etc.
We all heard the angelic choir (with instruments), and I kept saying afterwards:
"They all had microphones!" because of how loud they sang.
The angelic choir was not on the cassette tape of the meeting.

I find this claim impossible to believe as there is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts.

See post #35.

 

[John Zain]

Jesus and His disciples, and all of the NT churches,
evangelised and preached in this fashion ...

"And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of (spiritual) power,
so that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."
(1 Corinthians 2:4-5).

Thus it is all over the world today, but not in your churches.

Perhaps they have no interest in missions or evangelising the lost.

 

[242006]

See post #35.

What's your point??

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. This is fact!

So, you folks, who have made a religion out of 'spiritual gifts', represent only pseudo-Christianity. You claim you are 'Christian'; however, when one examines the bases for your fundamental tenets, one can see that they are not Biblically based.

 

[bud02]

can't wait to hear the replies to that piece of revelation

 

[Martin W.]

1 Corinthians 12 is pretty straightforward in my opinion. The subject is Spiritual Gifts

There are .......different kinds of gifts , ..............but the same Spirit.
There are .......different kinds of service, ............ but the same Lord.
There are .......different kinds of working, ...........but the same God



Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

- to one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom,
- to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
- to another faith by the same Spirit,
- to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [sup]
[/sup]- to another miraculous powers,
- to another prophecy,
- to another distinguishing between spirits,
- to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,
- to still another the interpretation of tongues

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.




And in the church God has appointed :
( Listed in order of importance )

-first of all apostles,
-second prophets,
-third teachers,
-then workers of miracles,
-also those having gifts of healing,
-those able to help others,
-those with gifts of administration,
-and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
[sup]
[/sup]Are all apostles?
Are all prophets?
Are all teachers?
Do all work miracles?
Do all have gifts of healing?
Do all speak in tongues?
Do all interpret? [sup]
[/sup]But eagerly desire the greater gifts.



This issue has always seemed pretty straightforward to me. It has always been my prayer and hope that the exuberant Pentecostal tongues speaker would desire and receive the greater gifts. That is where the action is and where things happen.

Best wishes to all who seek the greater gifts.

A.Martin M.
Woodside.

 

[John Zain]

Woodside has just taken Watchman to the Woodshed.

Next topic, please.

 

[242006]

Woodside has just taken Watchman to the Woodshed.

Next topic, please.

If anyone is going to the 'Woodshed', it will be you and Woodside! All official tongue-twisting religions believe, as a central tenet, Rapture -- which is none other than the great apostasy spoken of in 2 Thes. 2 and 1 Tim. 4:1 -- and, is the Mark of the Beast.

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. This is fact!

 

[242006]

1 Corinthians 12 is pretty straightforward in my opinion. The subject is Spiritual Gifts

There are .......different kinds of gifts , ..............but the same Spirit.
There are .......different kinds of service, ............ but the same Lord.
There are .......different kinds of working, ...........but the same God

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts in 1 Cor. 12. This is fact!

So, for you to claim that the subject is 'spiritual gifts', when such wording does not exist in the Bible manuscripts, is akin to claiming that the Bible states that the 'tooth fairy' is real.

Either the phrase "spiritual gifts" exists in the Word of God or it doesn't. Since it doesn't, it is foolish for people to make a [false] religion out of the concept.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

There you have it -- nothing to do with "spiritual gifts" for the following reasons:

1) Such are given for 'the common good' -- not for being such a good Christian [true believer].
2) All, and not just true believers [tongue twisters], are recipients thereof.
3) Who gives such? It is God, and not the Holy Spirit, who decides what each will have for the common good [ 1 Cor. 12:6]
4) Does one have to be a good little tongue twister to receive such? No -- the gifts of God are given without repentance [at birth] [see Rom. 11:29]
5) The Holy Spirit is the 'manifestation' -- such are not given by the Holy Spirit. The word 'of' does not exist in the Bible manuscript in 12:7. See 12:4-6, the Spirit works with the diversity of gifts that people are given.
,

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

There is hope for you! However, they are not given by the Spirit -- but, are given to all by God, Christian and non-christian alike [Rom. 11:29]. Hence, the tongue-twister religion, which claims that the diversities of gifts are only given to true believers [which exclude all but the tongue twisters], is a false Christian religion [is its own non-christian religion].

 

[Martin W.]

If anyone is going to the 'Woodshed', it will be you and Woodside! All official tongue-twisting religions believe, as a central tenet, Rapture -- which is none other than the great apostasy spoken of in 2 Thes. 2 and 1 Tim. 4:1 -- and, is the Mark of the Beast.

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. This is fact!

I went to my woodshed, glanced in my bible and in 10 minutes found these:

- Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised

- Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

- When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God

- While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God

- As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[sup] [/sup]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

- I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong

- We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[sup] [/sup]faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

- Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed

- But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that...

- Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant

- If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge

- Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

- Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

- For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. [sup]7[/sup]For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

- God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.



Martin Woodside

 

[242006]

I went to my woodshed, glanced in my bible and in 10 minutes found these:

- Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised

No "spiritual gifts" here.

- Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

The Holy Spirit IS the 'gift'. It doesn't state "spiritual gifts".

- When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God

Again, the Holy Spirit is the 'gift' from God. That is what 1 Cor. 12:7 is stating as well.

- While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God

Same -- the Holy Spirit is the 'gift'. It doesn't say that there are "spiritual gifts".

- As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[sup] [/sup]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

The Holy Spirit IS the gift.

- I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong

Check my quoted position -- no such thing as "spiritual gifts".

We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[sup] [/sup]faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

See my post above -- never said that there were no such thing as 'gifts'. There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts".

- Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed

- But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that...

No "spiritual gifts" here.

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant

The word 'gifts' is not in the manuscripts. It was inappropriately added by the translators.

- If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge

Not on point -- see above.

- Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

The word 'gifts' is not in the manuscripts. It was inappropriately added by the translators.

Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

The word 'gifts' is not in the manuscripts. It was inappropriately added by the translators.

For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. [sup]7[/sup]For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

Gift of God -- not "spiritual gifts"

God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

The word 'gifts' is properly rendered as 'gift'. Again, it is the Holy Spirit that is the gift.

.
.
.
Like I have said many times, there is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts.

 

[bud02]

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts in 1 Cor. 12. This is fact!

So, for you to claim that the subject is 'spiritual gifts', when such wording does not exist in the Bible manuscripts, is akin to claiming that the Bible states that the 'tooth fairy' is real.

Either the phrase "spiritual gifts" exists in the Word of God or it doesn't. Since it doesn't, it is foolish for people to make a [false] religion out of the concept.

1 Corinthians 12 [sup] [/sup]

[sup]4[/sup] There are diversities 1242 of gifts, 5486 but 1161 the same 846 Spirit 4151.

1242. diatheke dee-ath-ay'-kay from 1303; properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament.

1303. diatithemai dee-at-ith'-em-ahee middle voice from 1223 and 5087; to put apart, i.e. (figuratively) dispose (by assignment, compact, or bequest):--appoint, make, testator.

5486. charisma khar'-is-mah from 5483; a (divine) gratuity, i.e. deliverance (from danger or passion); (specially), a (spiritual) endowment, i.e. (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty:--(free) gift.

5483. charizomai khar-id'-zom-ahee middle voice from 5485; to grant as a favor, i.e. gratuitously, in kindness, pardon or rescue:--deliver, (frankly) forgive, (freely) give, grant.

1161. de deh a primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.:--also, and, but, moreover, now (often unexpressed in English).

846. autos ow-tos' from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare 848.

4151. pneuma pnyoo'-mah from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.

5590. psuche psoo-khay' from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

 

[242006]

It states DIVERSITIES of gifts -- not "spiritual gifts".

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. This is a fact!

 

[bud02]

It states DIVERSITIES of gifts -- not "spiritual gifts".

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. This is a fact!

It states DIVERSITIES 1242 of gifts ----- but the same Spirit

1242. diatheke dee-ath-ay'-kay from 1303; properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament.

from 1303; properly

1303. diatithemai dee-at-ith'-em-ahee middle voice from 1223 and 5087; to put apart, i.e. (figuratively) dispose (by assignment, compact, or bequest):--appoint, make, testator.

Let me translate for you, different gifts from the same Spirit. = Spiritual gifts.
Not; DIVERSITIES of gifts -- not "spiritual gifts".
you'll get the hang of reading full sentences, just stick with it.

 

[242006]

It states DIVERSITIES 1242 of gifts ----- but the same Spirit

1242. diatheke dee-ath-ay'-kay from 1303; properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament.

from 1303; properly

1303. diatithemai dee-at-ith'-em-ahee middle voice from 1223 and 5087; to put apart, i.e. (figuratively) dispose (by assignment, compact, or bequest):--appoint, make, testator.

Let me translate for you, different gifts from the same Spirit. = Spiritual gifts.
Not; DIVERSITIES of gifts -- not "spiritual gifts".
you'll get the hang of reading full sentences, just stick with it.

As usual, you translate incorrectly! Try reading with understanding! No where does it state that the different gifts are 'from' the Holy Spirit.


<B>

1Co 12:4</B>​

​

​

​

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

​

The word rendered as 'but' is G1161 in Strongs -


<B>

G1161

​

</B>

δέ

​

de

​

deh

​

A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].

​

Unless you think that the Spirit works adversarily against the gifts given from God, you should agree with me that the rendering of 'but' is improper. 'But' would represent the adversative case for this word. Clearly, it is a mistranslation in the KJV -- it should read 'and' or 'moreover'. In any case, one does not derive the meaning 'from' out of this word as you attempted to do.

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. All gifts, including the gift of the Holy Spirit, are given by God. Each receives their gift not because they are about to become a good little tongue twister, but are given irrespective of being a Christian or not [Rom. 11:29].

 

[bud02]

As usual, you translate incorrectly! Try reading with understanding! No where does it state that the different gifts are 'from' the Holy Spirit.


<B>

1Co 12:4</B> Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

​

The word rendered as 'but' is G1161 in Strongs -


<B>

G1161

​

</B>

δέ

​

de

​

deh

​

A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].

​

Unless you think that the Spirit works adversarily against the gifts given from God, you should agree with me that the rendering of 'but' is improper. 'But' would represent the adversative case for this word. Clearly, it is a mistranslation in the KJV -- it should read 'and' or 'moreover'. In any case, one does not derive the meaning 'from' out of this word as you attempted to do.

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. All gifts, including the gift of the Holy Spirit, are given by God. Each receives their gift not because they are about to become a good little tongue twister, but are given irrespective of being a Christian or not [Rom. 11:29].

 

[bud02]

Unless you think that the Spirit works adversarily against the gifts given from God, you should agree with me that the rendering of 'but' is improper. 'But' would represent the adversative case for this word. Clearly, it is a mistranslation in the KJV -- it should read 'and' or 'moreover'. In any case, one does not derive the meaning 'from' out of this word as you attempted to do.

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts. All gifts, including the gift of the Holy Spirit, are given by God. Each receives their gift not because they are about to become a good little tongue twister, but are given irrespective of being a Christian or not [Rom. 11:29].

Look I've played your little word games before. I'm not going to question you for 10 post to get to the heart of the matter.
It looks to me like you have a difference of opinion of God and The Spirit.

All gifts, including the gift of the Holy Spirit, are given by God

Is it not God that imparts the Spirit to give the gifts? Does the Spirit work apart from God?

And your interpretation of Romans?

Each receives their gift not because they are about to become a good little tongue twister, but are given irrespective of being a Christian or not [Rom. 11:29].

Are you saying these gifts are for everyone? both christian and non christian equally? Jews and gentiles is Paul point.

Well I don't really care to play in your playground, I stated what I wanted to in reply to your statement about gifts of the Spirit.
Paul goes into great detail in explaining that we are different members of the same body in Christ. Which equates to different "gifts" functionality for different members.
You keep repeating your statement and as usual you never follow up with exactly why, are there no such things, as Spiritual gifts?

 

[242006]

Look I've played your little word games before. I'm not going to question you for 10 post to get to the heart of the matter.
It looks to me like you have a difference of opinion of God and The Spirit.

Are you so pig-headed that you can never admit error and thank a Christian for edifying you??

Is it not God that imparts the Spirit to give the gifts?

No. The gifts are given each at birth. For the deeper student, it is those skills that one had in the first age.

The problem that most have with the 1 Cor. 12:4-10 scriptures is that they have already been indoctrinated in the traditions of man -- thereby making void the Word of God. They think that the gifts are a special blessings for being a true believer ["spiritual gifts"]. Whereas, the gifts are the ordinary skills that each of us have. Rom. 11:29 proves that non-'true believers' receive gifts as well, thereby dispelling all notion that 'gifts' are a special blessing for Christians only.

Does the Spirit work apart from God?

Of course not!! That would be blasphemy! If you look at Martin W's post above, he has done the work for you in citing so many scriptures that identify the Holy Spirit, Itself, as a gift from God.

And your interpretation of Romans?

You will have to be more specific in what scriptures are in question.

Are you saying these gifts are for everyone? both christian and non christian equally? Jews and gentiles is Paul point.

Of course! See Rom. 11:29, 1 Cor. 12:11.

Well I don't really care to play in your playground, I stated what I wanted to in reply to your statement about gifts of the Spirit.
Paul goes into great detail in explaining that we are different members of the same body in Christ. Which equates to different "gifts" functionality for different members.
You keep repeating your statement and as usual you never follow up with exactly why, are there no such things, as Spiritual gifts?

I find it quite disturbing when a person, claiming to be 'Christian', refers to edification in Truth to be a "playground". Nonetheless, you miss the point of Paul's teachings. For those that are Christians, the Holy spirit utilizes the skills given them at birth to benefit the many membered body of Christ. Likewise, the Holy Spirit works through non Christians to benefit Christians too. For instance, some of the best doctors around are non-christians. I certainly would rather be operated on by a very skilled non-christian doctor than an incompetent Christian doctor.

Why should I explain why there are no Spiritual gifts?? I don't have to explain why there is no 'tooth fairy'. Neither exist in the Word of God.

 

[bud02]

I find it quite disturbing when a person, claiming to be 'Christian', refers to edification in Truth to be a "playground". Nonetheless, you miss the point of Paul's teachings. For those that are Christians, the Holy spirit utilizes the skills given them at birth to benefit the many membered body of Christ. Likewise, the Holy Spirit works through non Christians to benefit Christians too. For instance, some of the best doctors around are non-christians. I certainly would rather be operated on by a very skilled non-christian doctor than an incompetent Christian doctor.

Why should I explain why there are no Spiritual gifts?? I don't have to explain why there is no 'tooth fairy'. Neither exist in the Word of God.

I find it equally disturbing that anyone can base an entire theology on a presumption about what took place between Gen 1;1 and Gen 1;2 IE the first earth age.
Then to let this fantasy effect their entire reading of the bible. That's " your " playground I was referring to. The first earth age as you call it. You say its for the deeper student, and your right you don't have to explain the tooth fairy, just the knowledge of where you get such presumptions is quite enough. And I don't blame you for not going into detail, it would only lessen your credibility to those you try to confuse with such statements all over this forum. You certainly can't accuse others of believing in the tooth fairy if you let yours out of the bag.

Your belief about us being reincarnated beings from the first age is also peaking out.

No. The gifts are given each at birth. For the deeper student, it is those skills that one had in the first age.

Its pretty clear your self importance and hidden knowledge have blinded you.

Are you so pig-headed that you can never admit error and thank a Christian for edifying you??

 

[Martin W.]

The Holy Spirit IS the 'gift'.
[/b]

Yes, The Holy Spirit is the gift but remember the gift manifests itself in 9 different ways in the Christian believer.

Another way of saying it is that the Christian can manifest up to 9 different talents which are given by The Holy Spirit which is a gift from God.

For some reason you are appearing to want cause division on the exact use of these words. It is like splitting hairs for no reason but to argue.

So what spirit is it that causes you to want to argue and cause division Mr Watchman_2 ???

Martin.

 

[242006]

I find it equally disturbing that anyone can base an entire theology on a presumption about what took place between Gen 1;1 and Gen 1;2 IE the first earth age.
Then to let this fantasy effect their entire reading of the bible. That's " your " playground I was referring to. The first earth age as you call it. You say its for the deeper student, and your right you don't have to explain the tooth fairy, just the knowledge of where you get such presumptions is quite enough. And I don't blame you for not going into detail, it would only lessen your credibility to those you try to confuse with such statements all over this forum. You certainly can't accuse others of believing in the tooth fairy if you let yours out of the bag.

Yes -- I know you are disturbed by Bible Truth. I can't help you any with your inability to see Truth. I can only continue to show you, and the other viewers, how foolish you are with your unbiblical nonsense. Obviously, my comment, "for the deeper student", was not intended for you. You need to stick to the beginning student studies.

Your belief about us being reincarnated beings from the first age is also peaking out.

You are quite ignorant -- it is not reincarnation. Where do you think our spiritual bodies come from??

Its pretty clear your self importance and hidden knowledge have blinded you.

That is the typical comment from a loser. You mistake being correct for arrogance. People, like you, are happy when everyone is equally biblically illiterate as you. That way, no one can say you are wrong and expect you to acknowledge it. Of course, a person, like you, who cannot acknowledge error when it is plainly placed before them, is a heretic and a fool [God's description-- not mine].

When a person cannot debate the message on substance, then attack the messenger. You must be a liberal, who voted for Obama.