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The Baptism With The Holy Spirit (A Scriptural Study)

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by John Zain, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    Does the Holy Spirit come "in" (John 14:17, etc.) at salvation?
    Or at the born-again experience?
    Or are they one and the same thing?

    I take it none of you believes that the Holy Spirit baptism is an additional infilling.
     
  2. BritGuy

    BritGuy New Member

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    Fire also burns up the unrighteousness in saints.
    "better to be hot now than later".

    The word "and" is kai in the greek which means "even".
    The fiery zeal of God replaces the old ways of those that allow him to live and work in them.


    We can say that people have or have not the Spirit - if you read Acts (and Jude 19) it is clear that it was known precisely when people received God's (invisible) Spirit (Acts 10:44-46), and it was known that believers had not yet received (Acts 8:12-16, 19:5)


    Not sure where you get the 10 days from?
     
  3. BritGuy

    BritGuy New Member

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    Same thing, synonymous terms.(see for example Acts 11:14-18)
    We never read of anyone being "born again" or "receiving the Spirit" but later getting baptised in the Spirit.
    The disciples received the promised Spirit at Pentecost, Jesus referred to this as the baptism in the Spirit.

    Jesus details the born again experience saying:
    " The wind blows (greek: the spirit breathes) where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
    (John 3:8)

    - compare this with Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-48.

    An old brother I know met the son of one of the Jeffries brothers at a tent crusade in Liverpool... he admitted that they made HS Baptism separate from salvation as to not do so would mean they lost many people.

    " For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:13)
     
  4. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    Can you show me specifically where it says God burns up the unrighteousness in saints? Passages always help.

    Kai is used for the word "and" in the text so I believe it is translated properly and the very next passage tells us who the fire is reserved for. Wheat (saints) are gathered into the garner. Chaff (unrighteous) are burned. We'll just say we disagree on what is meant by fire.

    Jude 18-20 does not say anything about a visible manifestation of the Spirit. It does tell you that they (unbelievers) walk in their own lusts and have not the Spirit.

    Acts 10:44-46 deals with the Gentiles coming into the church. If we use it as an example, then should we also ask why Cornelius and family received the Holy Spirit before baptism by water? In verse 47 Peter asks why should the Gentiles be forbidden from being baptized since they already had the Holy Spirit. Does baptism come before the Holy Spirit's manifestation or no?

    Acts 8:12-16 is tricky. Apparently there was a visible manifestation of the Spirit, but we are not told exactly what it was. Tongues (languages) is not mentioned. And note in each example, it is the apostles who have this ability to transfer the Holy Spirit. The apostles are always present. Are there apostles today? Also, a new group (the Samaritans) is coming into the church.

    Acts 19:1-7 is easier to understand because the men Paul was speaking with were not believers in Christ, but were baptized into John's baptism. They became believers after Paul's preaching and believing on Jesus.

    As for 10 days to the feast of Weeks (Pentecost), Pentecost means fiftieth day. I will double-check my numbers, but 10 days after the ascension to Pentecost is a counting of the days from Jesus' resurrection (Passover?) and Him being with the apostles for 40 days, leaving 10 days til the Spirit's arrival (some count it as 9). The Spirit's arrival had to be on Pentecost, because God had set it up that way and had laid out the feasts (appointed times) in the OT. It was no arbitrary day that the Holy Spirit fell and the church was born. It corresponds with the giving of the Law in the OT at Mount Sinai. The old covenant was written on tablets of stone, the New covenant is written on the heart. In Ezek. 36:26- 27 God addresses this as well as promises them the Spirit (just one place from the OT).

    Feel free to respond.
     
  5. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    Belief here is a word which suggests acceptance of a dogma which is not published in the pages of Holy Scripture.
    Nowhere in the book do I read about getting a spiritual booster shot. Nowhere.

    Don't get me wrong folks, I've had the pleasure of experiencing extreme touches from the Holy Spirit in my day. I cannot brag about such things because they are gifts, not something of my own to be proud of.....except to say that I know the Lord and He knows me. None of them were given because of any piety on my part. God knows I am far from it. It is by grace alone that I can write these things.

    Now let us be perfectly clear on the working of the Holy Spirit. No man can throw a lasso around it and force it to come down. It comes and goes as it will, like a gentle breeze. Sometimes we feel its presence most strongly and other times we notice the whisper of a still small voice. These are our perceptions, that which we are given as gifts of the coming and going of the Holy Spirit. This does not mean it isn't always with us nor that it has forsaken us. We are given faith and encouraged in faith during those dry spells when we perceive it not.

    That being said, it is patently obvious that some have been saved and have not received the Holy Spirit. Note that there was a lapse of time between the ascension of Christ and the falling of the Holy Spirit. Note also the passages in scripture which said that some were convinced and believed in Christ, but had not yet received the spirit.

    It isn't automatic and it ought not be taken for granted. <-- This point alone is where the contention rests.

    There are blank spots in the explanation of the way spiritual things work and they cannot be filled in with any sort of prideful boasting. It should not and can not be assumed that the filling of the Holy Spirit is some sort of 'extra blessing' on the order of a spiritual booster shot. If the teaching of the receiving and filling of the Holy Spirit is broadcast or believed as though it were some sort of denominationally restricted gift, then the whole point of its arrival is missed.

    Earlier, I posted a description of the mechanics of the experience and encourage anyone who is serious about this sort of thing to review it. Unless of course we all wish to continue in academic bickering with scripture quotations on the one hand and dogmatic spiritual pride on the other.

    God is not so. He offers a gift. The choice is obvious.

    Take it or leave it.
     
  6. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    On another Forum, a Senior member warned the nay-sayers that
    there were several millions around the world who have received
    the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and they are most adamant that
    it is an additional experience.

    As with non-believers, intelligent men can always find reasons for not believing the Truth.
     
  7. BritGuy

    BritGuy New Member

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    I can't think of a verse that specifically says tyhat, but that is the whole ministry of Jesus under the new covenant!

    Here's the nearest I can think of:

    Isaiah 4:4: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

    1John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us (the saints) from all unrighteousness.


    Gal. 5:15-17: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
    This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


    kai is also translated "and" here:
    " to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful" (Eph.1:1)

    So, do you believe Paul was writing to 2 separate groups of people in Ephesus... group (1) "the saints", group (2): "the faithful" ?

    Vine's bible disctionary goes into detail on this word kai.

    Look again:
    M't:3:12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Note: it does not say that the fire is "reserved" for the chaff.


    It refers to praying in the Holy Spirit which 1 Corintiansd 14:14-18 says is praying in tongues.


    the answer is freely given in the scriptures you have already read!
    Either. They are separate things.
    So, you don't have to be baptised in water in order to receive God's Spirit, but it is still commanded to people seeking salvation.

    If you believe Acts 2:33 & 39 where Peter states (under the Holy Spirit) that this promise (of the Spirit, evidenced by tongues) is to all who God will call, then you know (1) how Philip and the other Christians knew that the believing Samariansd had not yet received the Spirit and (2) how it was known precisely whan they received, and what was seen that hadn't already been manifest.


    Look again: in Acts 2 the Spirit is not transferred by apostles, He comes direct to all (including 108 non-apostles), from Jesus.
    John the baptist said that Jesus personally would baptise in the Spirit, another verse says that Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, theer is no 2nd level of mediation to receive Jesus.
    Hebrews says that Jesus is the apostle & high priest of the faith.

    The apostles themselves never once claim that they need to be present for people to receive the Spirit.
    Philip was alone in Samaria, the apostles came to help minister, to teach that it is because the Spirit cannot be given unless they are around is pure surmising.

    Jesus taught that the Spirit is given to those who thirst for him, no conditions and copmplications.

    There was not an apostle at each church all the time, so according to this idea you present, people cannot receive the Spirit and be saved in those churches at times!

    OK, small point.
     
  8. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    Forgive me, I'm new to responding to point by point. But what again, do we mean by "tongues", since that really is part of the issue.
     
  9. BritGuy

    BritGuy New Member

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    Miraculous unlearned language for praying to God (not preaching to men as some teach).

    " they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4)

    "he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God" (1 Cor. 14:2)

    Why doeas the Holy Spirit lead God's children that way?

    "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26)
     
  10. Martin W.

    Martin W. New Member

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    Every Christian believer receives The Holy Spirit as well as a ministering Angel. There are various gifts of The Holy Spirit given to various Christians , and various fruits of The Spirit can be observed among some Christians. .

    Anyone claiming to have an extra special portion of Holy Spirit is really wanting to express his view that he is a better Christian than the other "dead ones".

    That is the motive. It is mostly boasting with little else actually accomplished.

    I find those who actually acomplish a lot do not boast a lot.

    A. Martin W.
     
  11. pgfinest2002

    pgfinest2002 New Member

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    That is exactly what I thought you would say and I must respectfully disagree with the definition you listed for tongues.
    We can discuss Acts 2 a little more if you wish and you will see why I truly believe the scripture does not teach it is an unknown/heavenly/spiritual language.
    Btw, I've spent the last 12 years in Pentecostal circles, so I've got some first-hand experience with this teaching.
     
  12. BritGuy

    BritGuy New Member

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    The scripture teaches that tongues is unknown to the speaker, it is to get beyond his / her understanding and minister the love joy and peace that passes understanding.
    All need this that ius why all of God's Children are given the ability at new birth.
    Far and away the main use and purpose of tongues is personal private prayer.

    It is possible that someone else will recognise some of what is said when used in a public situation, this has happened a few times in our meetings,
    but they didn't understand the gospel as a result of this, we still spoke to them in the common learned language after.
     
  13. Martin W.

    Martin W. New Member

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    I would endorse the claims that tongues can be used in such situations. I think it is a fantastic demonstration of the supernatural working of The Holy Spirit in the Christian.

    But it has also been my observation that endless tongues spoken in Pentecostal circles serves only as a badge of boasting of some type of exclusive spiritual filling. Boasting is not spiritual. Emotionalism is not Spiritualism.

    When The Holy Spirit chooses to express himself in human Christians he can accomplish a lot. It is extremely productive. It can be portrayed in all the gifts of The Spirit , not tongues alone.

    I find it is The Holy Spirit that decides these circumstances , not me.

    May we all get a taste of The Holy Spirit working through the Christian. It can be profound .

    Best regards.

    A. Martin M. Woodside.
     
  14. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    Okay, since you are so adamantly against what I am trying to teach,
    I believe that you owe it to us ... to answer the following question honestly:

    Do you believe that the 9 spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11,
    these gifts which are used all over the world in churches, and by evangelists,
    missionaries, etc. are for today?


    Please just be honest (you know that God considers lying to be an abomination,
    and remember that all liars will be thrown into the lake of fire, etc. etc.).
     
  15. BritGuy

    BritGuy New Member

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    Of course, you don't honestly believe that God has done away with some or all of these his workings do you?

    Please specify your belief.
     
  16. John Zain

    John Zain Newbie trainee

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    I asked you the question because I thought your honest answer would be, "NO".

    Do you realize that ALL (or 99.9%) of the Christians genuinely involved in the 9 spiritual gifts
    in churches and in evangelism world-wide have been given ...
    the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?

    For people involved in these areas, the power has come from one of two sources:
    1) from God, as explained above
    or
    2) from Satan
     
  17. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    How are you measuring that claim? What is your documentation?
     
  18. 242006

    242006 New Member

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    I find this claim impossible to believe as there is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts.
     
  19. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    As one who has spent a considerable amount of time in the Pentacostal/Fundamentalist denominations and independent churches, I can testify to the truth of the above statement.

    The entire argument has absolutely nothing to do with blessings from God and everything to do with spiritual pride.
    It is rather like school children taunting one another in the school yard, "I've got more than you've got, Na na na".

    Those who are truly blessed of God are usually too busy with the Father's work to take time to look down upon brothers and sisters in Christ.

    The opposite side of the coin from spiritual pride is spiritual jealousy.
    Those who "don't have" the spiritual booster shot generally lash the tongues off of those who do, quite literally.
    The gift of tongues is the issue that's debated and condemned the most.
    If a brother or sister has that gift, then let that gift be used. If not, then use the gift you have.
    Not all gifts are given equally, but all are for the efficacy of the body as a whole and the ultimate glory of God who gives them.

    Instead of building one another up we succumb to pride and jealousy; the double sided coin which won't even buy a cup of coffee on the streets of the Holy City of God.

    Let us rather put aside these childish things in order that we may worship and seek God as He has led us, firm in the conviction that our primary gift is to trust and obey our good Father in Heaven.
     
  20. 242006

    242006 New Member

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    See 1 Tim. 4:1 -

    <B>
    1Ti 4:1</B>​



    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    I certainly don't see that these tongue-twisters, giving heed to seducing [Satanic] spirtis and doctrines [Rapture and spiritual gifts] of devils, that claim to be 'Christian' to be a "childish thing". I see no other recourse but to tear down that house-of-cards religion and to show all that will see and hear that such beliefs and practices are not Biblical.

    My reading of the Bible tells me that Christians are to condemn and tear down such false religions. If you have any basis for building up such a false religion as practiced by the tongue-twisters, I would be happy to know it.
     
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