Tong2020 said:
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Before I comment on the points you make there, let me just ask you a few questions with regards
Romans 9:31-32.
What do you say was Paul saying that Israel was pursuing?
What is the reason why Israel has not attained what they were pursuing?
Why was it that the Gentiles, while even not pursuing what Israel was pursuing, had attained it?
What was Israel doing in the pursuit of it?
A deeper question, though this is not found in the passage, would be, how is it (to your knowledge of scriptures) that Israel was pursuing it as Paul say they do?
Israel was and is in pursuit of eternal salvation. They were literally inundated under the Law by the hope of returning to the Tree of Life. They were promised the "Jewish Hope," namely a time when their nation would finally be delivered from the oppression of opposing nations, never to be judged again.
This Hope could not be found under standards of the Law, which I insist was given both to give Israel hope through its temporary atonements, and also discourage them from thinking they could obtain eternal life by their own efforts under the Law. As much as it was good for them to obey the Law, they were discouraged from thinking that it was by that system that eternal life would come. Rather, it would come through Messianic deliverance, which we know now was the case.
Romans 9:30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
What do you say was Paul saying that Israel was pursuing? Well we can say salvation. But, to be more accurate, righteousness, the righteousness that they know of, that is, the righteousness of the law (law of Moses).
What is the reason why Israel has not attained what they were pursuing? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.
Why was it that the Gentiles, while even not pursuing what Israel was pursuing, had attained it? They really did not attain what Israel was pursuing. What they obtained is righteousness, a righteousness that is by faith. Obviously, they obtained such righteousness because of faith and by faith.
What was Israel doing in the pursuit of it? Israel was pursuing the righteousness of the law not by faith but by works. They thought of righteousness as if it were attained by works. As such, they strive to attain it by the works of the law. And that is, what is called self righteousness. So that even if they attain it, they will never be justified by it. It was a wrong righteousness, that which is of man, something to boast about, though still not to God, but only to man.
How is it that Israel was pursuing it as Paul say they do? They were led astray into believing that righteousness is attained by the works of the law, by the false teachings of mainly by no less than their leaders, such as the Pharisees.
Tong2020 said:
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<<<What does the Law being of "works" mean? It means the Law required works that brought blessings by faith, but could not completely remove sin, thus denying a person faith in a final atonement.>>>
It means that the Law is made up of actual works or practical deeds required of Israel to perform, keep, observe, live by, governed by~ their covenant obligations.
The Law denied nothing to Israel. To the contrary it provided what is good for them, according to the wisdom and grace of God.
This is false, and where you go wrong. The Law was an absolute obstacle to Israel achieving eternal life, which was indeed their goal. Their goal was ineed to obtain the eternal salvation of national Israel. They simply failed to accept that they could not achieve this themselves, by the Law.
It was not saying that they achieved *nothing* under the Law. They could and did achieve a lot! But they absolutely could not achieve their goal of obtaining eternal life and eternal salvation for the nation. They had to depend on Messiah to do this work of atonement for them.
Not false. I find no reason and sense for God to put an obstacle for them, whom He intended to make a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
Tong2020 said:
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<<<The Law is works that do not achieve eternal life.>>>
Finally. Law is works ~ not of faith.
You keep saying this, but Faith was present under the Law. Paul is speaking of "Faith that Saves for Eternal Life." That particular kind of Faith had not yet come. The Law was not of that particular kind of "Faith." It had faith for temporary forgiveness, temporal blessings, and could obtain a regular display of Grace in covenant with God. But the "Faith" we're talking about is "faith in Christ," which is more than what Faith could have under the system of Law, or even at any time during the OT era.
It was Paul who says the law is not of faith. I just repeat it, perhaps every time it is needed to be pointed out.
Of course, faith that is referred to there in Gal.3:12 is that faith that comes from God, that by which God saves and through which man is saved. And this faith had come to man at various times, in various ways, to men chosen by God and willed to give His grace of salvation, giving them this faith, such as Abraham. This is the same faith that was yet to come to Israel, which Paul talks about in Gal.3:23. This faith comes to them through and in Jesus Christ, the word of God.
Tong2020 said:
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<<<Paul was *not* saying there is no faith in the Law.>>>
Yes. What Paul is saying is that the law is not
of faith. In the positive then, the law is
of works.
That is *not* the distinction Paul is saying. He is using an abbreviated form of "Faith in Christ for Eternal Life," as opposed to Faith that does not achieve Israel's ultimate objectives. Paul assumes his listeners have already learned that much from him. But in our day, we need to review these things. We're 2000 years removed from Paul's time!
Well, it is in my reading. I don’t subscribe really to what you say about Paul as using an abbreviated form of “Faith in Christ for Eternal Life”. I think if a Bible translator would have that in their version, it would in all likelihood be criticized as an addition. Just an observation, I find not one Bible version among 60 that I checked.
Tong
R1707