Where is hell? Where is heaven?

[quietthinker]

Man, wish I knew what the heck that you are getting at????
Can you not just make a doctrinal conclusion, so that I know what your ultimate point is?
Again, death means cessation of life, but the word does not preclude a re-animation or re-vivification. So, again, are you attempting to espouse a doctrine, or just play Mr. Lexicon?

I'm sorry You can't hear what I'm saying DNB. As I said earlier, it's no mystery to me but it seems it is to you...unfortunately.
I also don't find the need to fit into someone else's categorisation about these things.

 

[Brakelite]

torment was self-inflicted.

in as much as we are responsible for our own destiny, yes, in a sense it is self inflicted. That said however one would have to explain the conflicting statements that speak of the fire from heaven that destroys everyone outside the walls of the city. But I feel you. Unbelief basically is a choice people make that forbids them any place in God's kingdom.
I do take issue though with your

proof-text for annihilism, yes, in an isolated context,

I have previously posted a comprehensive list of scriptures that speak clearly to destruction, so many in fact that the theme runs from one end of the Bible to the other. In light of the preponderance of that evidence, the few texts used in favor of eternal torment which are not at all conclusive regarding the "everlasting" aspect of the theory, pales by comparison.
One obvious example of the above is the oft used text to prove eternal torment,
KJV Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Yet one would be hard pressed to find any fires currently burning in Sodom.

One aspect regarding the character of God that you missed when you suggested the self inflcting nature of the torment, is that in order for such excruciating agonizing suffering that in any normal circumstance would indeed destroy the victim, demand that an abnormal circumstance must other in order for it to continue... The life sustaining power of God Himself to continue the suffering.

 

[DNB]

I'm sorry You can't hear what I'm saying DNB. As I said earlier, it's no mystery to me but it seems it is to you...unfortunately.
I also don't find the need to fit into someone else's categorisation about these things.

Get lost!

 

[DNB]

in as much as we are responsible for our own destiny, yes, in a sense it is self inflicted. That said however one would have to explain the conflicting statements that speak of the fire from heaven that destroys everyone outside the walls of the city. But I feel you. Unbelief basically is a choice people make that forbids them any place in God's kingdom.
I do take issue though with your

I have previously posted a comprehensive list of scriptures that speak clearly to destruction, so many in fact that the theme runs from one end of the Bible to the other. In light of the preponderance of that evidence, the few texts used in favor of eternal torment which are not at all conclusive regarding the "everlasting" aspect of the theory, pales by comparison.
One obvious example of the above is the oft used text to prove eternal torment,
KJV Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Yet one would be hard pressed to find any fires currently burning in Sodom.

One aspect regarding the character of God that you missed when you suggested the self inflcting nature of the torment, is that in order for such excruciating agonizing suffering that in any normal circumstance would indeed destroy the victim, demand that an abnormal circumstance must other in order for it to continue... The life sustaining power of God Himself to continue the suffering.

Yes, you're suffering from a case of hermeneutical hyper-literalism. I meant to mention that in my previous post, but, I anticipate that predominantly, your alleged plethora of support text will be out of context, or not taking into consideration the stages of death, which I have been incessantly predicating.

We die and are buried, then what? Are we raised to Judgement, so that the previous death was not final, as you so emphatically assert? Or, as some say, we are in paradise until Judgement day, ...so that no one actually died yet? I believe in soul-sleep, the body dies, but the spirit is in dormancy until Christ returns. So, your principle of death means death, how does that apply to physical death and Judgement day, where the latter you imply will be the 2nd or final death?

 

[quietthinker]

Any honest and truth seeking Christian will recognize these holes through which I could ride a bicycle while drunk and blindfold,

oh I see Backlit, you are now making a case for blindfolded drunkenness....and on bicycles for that matter. Can't you be clear about your doctrinal stance particularly when the scripture says no drunkard will enter the kingdom of Heaven let alone blindfolded and there is plenty about that; blindfolded ie. In regard to bicycles, well I don't see anything in scripture about them and why are you changing the subject anyway???

 

[quietthinker]

Get lost!

sorry DNB, I couldn't resist a bit of humour in my reply to Backlit, post #125 ....though it was at your expense.
I see you are angry and frustrated....please forgive me yet this matter, from the scriptures, is as obvious as the necessity to breath air if one wants to stay upright.

 

[Dcopymope]

@amadeus

Its not that they were wrong about a pre-trib rapture, or more correctly termed pre seven trumpets rapture, the misnomer is that they believe THEY as gentiles will be the ones delivered. This is why they always stick strictly to the new testament. Its because they know that there is a ton of prophecy in the old testament that has not been fulfilled yet that has next to zero to do with any gentile deliverance. The old testament is chock full of a coming physical deliverance of Israel from out of all the nations of which it was scattered and led into captivity.

Jeremiah speaks of it, Moses spoke of it, and a ton of other prophets spoke of this massive future "regathering". Even Jesus spoke of it, but chief among them that spoke at length about it was Ezekiel. They had to white wash history to make it fit the 1948 people that walked their stinking behinds into Jerusalem claiming to be MY people. I wouldn't be bothering citing this scripture if I couldn't also point it out to you where this all occurs in Revelation, proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that those people claiming to be Israel are NOT true Israel. This great regathering occurs sometime after God makes his presence known to the world at the sixth seal, the Day of the Lord, of his chosen, not the gentile.

The "wilderness":

(Ezekiel 20:33-36) "¶ As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: {34} And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. {35} And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. {36} Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD."

(Revelation 12:13-14) "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. {14} And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

The 144,000 and the "great multitude":

(Revelation 7:1-8) "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. {2} And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, {3} Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. {4} And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. {5} Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. {6} Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. {7} Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. {8} Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

(Revelation 7:9-17) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. {15} Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. {16} They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. {17} For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Now as for the gentile believer, well, good luck to them. They'll be too busy getting their teeth kicked in by the much vaunted "anti-Christ". Just be grateful that your scheduled beating will only last a few years, and not 400 years. If you don't want to face the seven trumpet beat down, your only way out of of it at all, as far as I can see, is to cling to true Israel. You live in America, so that will make it a lot easier for you, since you have Judah right in your backyard.

(Revelation 13:7) "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

And, to close this off, showing that the people in Jerusalem now are in fact imposters, I'll leave you with this scripture. The Bible speaks of a global conspiracy of all the nations coming against Israel, to cut them off from even being a nation, so that they will no longer be in remembrance.

(Psalms 83:1-8) "Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God. {2} For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. {3} They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. {4} They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. {5} For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: {6} The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; {7} Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; {8} Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah."

Now is that what we saw in 1948? Or did we in fact see the exact opposite occur? Of course instead what we saw was the whole world coming together as one to make Israel a nation again, giving them billions upon billions every year, not take them away from even being remembered as a nation. THIS is how you know they are a fraud, and it explains why every President always meets with the Pope. The whole world knows who true Israel really is, and it is a massive Satanic deception to hide them.

They were, after all, the ones that hunted my people down across the ends of the earth to enslave and afflict them, and yes, of course even Africa itself was involved. All skin folk, ain't kin folk, and everyone knows about the trans Atlantic slave trade. It was not a "trade", it was in fact a war against the Jews, who happened to be black, and it continues to this day. I would have made a thread going into more detail, but I posted all this specifically in response to you since you are one of the few on this cesspit of a website who seems sincere.

 

[Truther]

Are not many people today effectively dead and in the grave in the eyes of God? All of us were there, but Jesus was sent into this place of death, this grave, this hell, this prison of ours and he preached to us. Some of us listened and are listening. Some of us have done something right with what we heard.

Jesus has visited me in my hell. He is helping me replace hell with heaven. Is he similarly helping you?

Neither heaven or hell is here on earth.

That is just a figure of speech.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus

Its not that they were wrong about a pre-trib rapture, or more correctly termed pre seven trumpets rapture, the misnomer is that they believe THEY as gentiles will be the ones delivered. This is why they always stick strictly to the new testament. Its because they know that there is a ton of prophecy in the old testament that has not been fulfilled yet that has next to zero to do with any gentile deliverance. The old testament is chock full of a coming physical deliverance of Israel from out of all the nations of which it was scattered and led into captivity.

There is always too much of "me, myself and I" on all of the forums where I have been and this one is certainly no exception. People might say that I am pointing at others... and I am, but I do not exclude myself from that group at which I point my finger. I keep on trying to improve that and God keeps reminding that I cannot fix myself. Surrendering to Him is absolutely essential. [There is an absolute stated as I usually try to avoid doing that.]

One thing I believe I did right because someone taught me is that from day one when I began to read the Bible for the first time [1976] I read of all of it. I still always do that even though there are still whole lot of dark or blank spots in my understanding. Of necessity that includes the OT [Old Testament]. I know that in spite of that I still after a while was patting myself on the back too much. I did not realize just how important humility is even though the superficial basics were in my brain. My heart was the problem...

In spite of all my years reading the whole Book, some of what you write here still goes over my head. Oh, it is not unfamiliar. On the contrary, but even memorizing the Bible does not equal full understanding and I certainly have not memorized it.

It was on this forum a few years ago that I first even gave thought to the physical people living in the land of Israel today not being the true Israel. It was @APAK who posted some things here jogged my way off position on that. I don't believe he won many friends or followers with that. Still it only added to many things for me to set on a back shelf in my mind waiting for God to clarify them if He ever decided to do that.

Jeremiah speaks of it, Moses spoke of it, and a ton of other prophets spoke of this massive future "regathering". Even Jesus spoke of it, but chief among them that spoke at length about it was Ezekiel. They had to white wash history to make it fit the 1948 people that walked their stinking behinds into Jerusalem claiming to be MY people. I wouldn't be bothering citing this scripture if I couldn't also point it out to you where this all occurs in Revelation, proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that those people claiming to be Israel are NOT true Israel. This great regathering occurs sometime after God makes his presence known to the world at the sixth seal, the Day of the Lord, of his chosen, not the gentile.

I have long seen perhaps a twofold thing in many or all of the prophecies. There is the physical part and there is the spiritual. Sometimes there may be more than two things which God will reveal to a sincere heart that according Him needs to understand. Separating the two clearly to understand who fits where is not such an easy thing, which is why I seldom or never get into it much myself unless I really believe God is leading me that way. Of course God knows and He has not hidden all of the details from everyone, but He is not giving out every detail to every Bible student either. Being a good Bible student is a good thing, but without humility and the real Love [Charity] as per God, all of those studies are worthless... or as Solomon writes it here:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Or per Paul:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

People put the whole of the flesh [their carnal brains] into it and the final result is being physically tired even though they certainly have provided many theories and conclusions and other results for anyone interested in reading them. Without a doubt some of those people may have some things right, but perhaps the biggest error I see is the stated, or strongly inferred, assertions that "I am right and you are wrong".

Only God is always right. Are we always listening to and hearing and paying attention to what He is saying? According to Jesus his sheep hear his voice, but who are his sheep? Lots of people hearing or reading the scripture are ready to proclaim that they are his sheep...but sometimes what a person sees or hears might make him wonder...

The "wilderness":

The 144,000 and the "great multitude":

Now as for the gentile believer, well, good luck to them. They'll be too busy getting their teeth kicked in by the much vaunted "anti-Christ". Just be grateful that your scheduled beating will only last a few years, and not 400 years. If you don't want to face the seven trumpet beat down, your only way out of of it at all, as far as I can see, is to cling to true Israel. You live in America, so that will make it a lot easier for you, since you have Judah right in your backyard.

You used an expression, "gentile believer" which brings something to my mind. I am not deep into studies of the original written Bible languages, but I do look up words to help me at times and as I am sure you know, the word, gentile, means a heathen or a pagan. When one really moves toward belief in God he is moving or is being moved away from being a gentile.

Of course, in the physical, as men, especially perhaps the physical children of Jacob/Israel, might define it, someone not a direct descendant of Jacob would still be a gentile. However in the sense of not being a heathen any more, just bearing or claiming the label of Christian doesn't make it so. Most called Christian, in a measure likely more than they would admit, remain gentiles in the eyes of God. If this were not true would we not see a very different society [70% as per men's numbers] than we do around us. It doesn't appear Christ-like to me. Who are God's people called the children of Israel? Probably not the ones who did come out of Egypt but during the 40 years in the wilderness. Those by their repeated rebellions and physical deaths without entering into the Promised Land might really in a sense then be gentiles. That was them, but there was Caleb and Joshua.

People today called Christians may be in their own wilderness and rebelling also as the children of Jacob died so long ago... and like the children of Jacob will also never enter into their Promised Land.

I am a child of Jacob/Israel so I am OK. Hmmm?
I am a Christian, a child of God, so I am OK. Hmmm?

And, to close this off, showing that the people in Jerusalem now are in fact imposters, I'll leave you with this scripture. The Bible speaks of a global conspiracy of all the nations coming against Israel, to cut them off from even being a nation, so that they will no longer be in remembrance.

Now is that what we saw in 1948? Or did we in fact see the exact opposite occur? Of course instead what we saw was the whole world coming together as one to make Israel a nation again, giving them billions upon billions every year, not take them away from even being remembered as a nation. THIS is how you know they are a fraud, and it explains why every President always meets with the Pope. The whole world knows who true Israel really is, and it is a massive Satanic deception to hide them.

But then 1948 sounds so good as it is described by many teachers and preachers, does it not? People's ears are tickled. Are our ears, yours and mine and those of everyone on this forum, embracing that which supports us in a own defined comfort zone instead of continuing to seek His face? How many are really as close or closer to God than was Moses when he was not allowed to see the face of God? If we are not, why not?

 

[amadeus]

@Dcopymope

They were, after all, the ones that hunted my people down across the ends of the earth to enslave and afflict them, and yes, of course even Africa itself was involved. All skin folk, ain't kin folk, and everyone knows about the trans Atlantic slave trade. It was not a "trade", it was in fact a war against the Jews, who happened to be black, and it continues to this day. I would have made a thread going into more detail, but I posted all this specifically in response to you since you are one of the few on this cesspit of a website who seems sincere.

I do appreciate your effort to explain these things to me. I really do not pretend to understand all of the details and the backgrounds involved. I too grew up with a whole lot presumed 'truths'. I learned things from my own family as well as in schools which when I really came to God I had to unlearn. Church settings can help, but most of them in my own experience are good at confirming or adding to the errors instilled in us previously. There is some good as well but if a person is really growing toward God as he should be doing, he must also we sorting through these things so as to accept or reject as appropriate. This is, I believe, where the lead of the Holy Spirit comes in...However, it seems to me that many who say they have the Holy Spirit really do not and others who do have learned to regularly and even routines quench the Spirit.

People can serve God first without knowing a lot of human history, but too often, or even most of the time, the history they know [think they know] does get in their way. God will help them, but too many don't really seek His help.

Thank you again for discussing this with me. I hope to see you around the forum. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him.

 

[amadeus]

Neither heaven or hell is here on earth.

That is just a figure of speech.

Perhaps, but where [if 'where' is even the right question?] then are they? Should we presume that all of the conclusions of men and their sciences are correct?

Even according to science which way is up and which way is down? Up is toward God and Light while down is toward death and darkness, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Truther]

Perhaps, but where [if 'where' is even the right question?] then are they? Should we presume that all of the conclusions of men and their sciences are correct?

Even according to science which way is up and which way is down? Up is toward God and Light while down is toward death and darkness, wouldn't you agree?

Looking at it in the natural, yes.

But heaven and hell are in another dimension of creation.

All we must do is die to step into it.

 

[marks]

What is the inevitable result of any separation from the only giver of life?

Death!

 

[kcnalp]

Are not many people today effectively dead and in the grave in the eyes of God? All of us were there, but Jesus was sent into this place of death, this grave, this hell, this prison of ours and he preached to us. Some of us listened and are listening. Some of us have done something right with what we heard.

Jesus has visited me in my hell. He is helping me replace hell with heaven. Is he similarly helping you?

Are you denying the literal, eternal Biblical Hell fire?

 

[marks]

my friend, that's solely your spin. I have not found scripture to seperate them.

Not mine alone, I don't think.

If you consider death to mean de facto "inactivity" or "cessation of existence", that definition doesn't work when you come to places like, On that day you shall surely die, And you, being dead in trespasses and sins, Your flesh is dead because of sin, there are many places where this doesn't work.

"I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne".

There are quite a number of verses I could present that show both existence and activity after death. However, as I apply separation as a definition of death, everything fits.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Looking at it in the natural, yes.

But heaven and hell are in another dimension of creation.

All we must do is die to step into it.

Well if we are stepping by faith in God right up to the end of our course, we certainly be with Him, but I am careful about describing it too closely. What do I know?

 

[amadeus]

Are you denying the literal, eternal Biblical Hell fire?

I am not denying anything! What should I confirm about tomorrow?

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:34

"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is a common view, but not everyone agrees with it. When our time comes, perhaps we will know the truth of the matter!

Well it is the biblical view so everyone who disagrees will need to catch up!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Second...1 Peter isn't talking about Jesus going anywhere to preach while He was dead. Read more carefully... It is speaking of the spirit of Christ in Noah preaching to those who were imprisoned by sin in Noah's day, who are now dea

YOu are wrong:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The He of verse 18 refers to Jesus!

The parable of Lazarus... He is described as having a tongue... The rich man a finger... Since when do souls have such things without a body? In order to justify your interpretation you first have to discard Genesis which says, man became a living soul.

Well it is not a parable, but Jesus giving a factual account. The Jews knew of the place of torment and Abrahams bosom. Jesus said, "there was a man" so there was a man! Also it would be the only story where He mentioned a person by name. Also there is no intro saying it was a parable nor any comparative languAGE "SUCH AS"" LIKE" "CAN BE COMPARED TO" so it stands as a true account. And no I do not have to discard Genesis. Prior to God making man- there were no men. That is why we have an immortal soul. Immortal is not eternal for it has a beginning but no end.

Nephesh was used in the OT to describe body and soul as they had no word for both like Greek.

Sorry you don't like the biblical answers. They are the only ones that matter.

My initial question was, without a brain and/or body parts, how does a soul operate? Your texts suggest that whoever you are speaking of does have those body parts... So when does the transition from a body-less entity to a thinking physical entity occur? It must be after the Resurrection right? So none of those texts can refer to a time when bodies are still in the grave surely?

god is a spirit so how does He speak and move about? God did not explain to us how- but He said they do. If you want to speculate you can, but we can never know how accurate our speculations are until we cross over death.

 

[amadeus]

Well it is the biblical view so everyone who disagrees will need to catch up!

Do you suppose correct knowledge on this point is a salvation issue? Will people have to pass a theological test which determines their final destination? Are we not to live by love/charity and faith rather than knowledge...?