Tong2020 said:
↑
Faith = works? Do you mean they are the same? Or do you mean faith produce works?
Faith and works are not the same thing. So, faith isn’t work and work isn’t faith. Love produces works. But that does not make love is of work or make love to be work.
1) You've admitted that keeping the Law was done by faith and was intended to produce righteousness. And then you say the works of the Law produced no righteousness.
It seems you have not read correctly my posts regarding that. Perhaps you can tell me what post# you got that or put the link of that post.
2) You've admitted that James said faith must be evidenced in deeds. I just told you that deeds are works, and so faith must be evidenced in works. And you said in response, faith and works are not related.
Perhaps things are mixed up here, if not a result of misunderstanding. Please cite the post# or put the links.
3) I told you that justification under the Law could not produce Salvation apart from Christ. And yet you say that eternal life was already obtained under the Old Covenant era by men simply by having faith.
I told you that justification is not by the law but by faith. And in support, I made reference to Abraham’s justification by God in Gen.15:6. And I said I have no reason to believe that Abraham was not saved and that he was given the gift of eternal life when he was justified by God.
To be clear, let me state here what I believe and is what I meant to say in my past posts regarding statements about work, faith, and salvation.
That salvation is of God and is the work of God, that it is by His grace and not by the compliance or fulfillment of some requirement that He gives man to do. That it is through or by faith, that which He gives to him whom He saves. That His salvation is not through or by works of man.
You have got to start making sense of your statements because you are just blurting out things that you think Scriptures are stating without any kind of effort to systematize them, or to make them fit together. Just stating things is not debating, nor even discussing. You mix contexts and thus confuse the semantics of words. I've explained this to you, and you just continue as always. Are you really being serious?
That’s only what you think, that I am just blurting out things that I think scriptures are stating without any kind of effort. Because I don’t do that. If you only knew what effort I put in every post I make, you might not say that. But I think I understand you. Perhaps because you believe you are doing it rightly and I am not. So that, anything I say which does not agree with your view, is wrong and will only be right if it agrees with your view. For if you don’t believe that, then you would not say such things. But I don’t have such mind. That’s why you don’t hear me say anything of that sort. I am open to other views, and will surely look at their merit and allow the Holy Spirit to be my guide.
Please stop bringing that up, if I am serious or honest or not. Just settle that with yourself for I have already told you my heart. Would my repeating telling you change your thinking on that? I don’t think so.
Tong2020 said:
↑
How could you even ask me that question? Do you think I would call God a liar? Wow. Is that how you see me? If I am a cause for such bad thoughts, just let me know, and I’ll stop responding to your post.
If you're serious you will start responding to the actual problems your contradictions are making. Stating things opposite to what God has said is a serious charge, but you make no effort to resolve it. God gave the Law to make Israel righteous. And you just say what: "No, He didn't?"
It seems you take any and all problem arising from this discussion, as necessarily only could be my doing, or my mistake, or my lack of whatever you think I lack, to the point that you always bring up and question my sincerity and honesty. And here, as though you want to make it appear that I say things oppose to what God said and you don’t, and me making God out to be a liar? Well,....what can I do, but suffer such and take comfort in the love of Christ.
Sincerely, take a deep breathe and rid your mind of such unpleasant and bad thoughts. If you think you can’t do that, then say so, so we can just stop as I think it is the only way that you won’t get to suffer having such bad thoughts.
<<<God gave the Law to make Israel righteous. And you just say what: "No, He didn't?>>>
Perhaps it’s because you don’t get to read really what is in my post. By the way, so that you know and might understand, your statement “God gave the law to make Israel righteous” comes to me as you saying that scriptures says that that is the purpose of God in giving the law. So, all my post regarding that are coming from that.
What I am saying in my posts is that while the law consist of good deeds, the law was not really given by God for that purpose, but for some other purpose/s, those which scriptures says, even explicitly. For the contention that God’s purpose with the law, is to make them righteous, that would render God as having failed. And God would not give the law for that purpose, for He knows Israel and all man for that matter, for He knows it would be a failure.
When one do a work of the law, like he do not commit murder, he had done a righteous deed and for that he is said to be righteous. But that is not the only work of the law, but many many more. When say out of 613 works, one was able to observe and keep 612, would you say he is righteous if he transgressed one, say he is a murderer or perhaps, an idolater, or a thief, or an adulterer?
Tong2020 said:
↑
If you don’t see the difference in “God wanted for them to be righteous” and “God make them righteous”, then that’s just it. There is no good argument that can be made on that.
That's the problem, brother. You seem not to care that your contradictions are stated blatantly without apology. You say God wanted people to be righteous and yet none of them were? Who would dignify such an argument with a response?
God “wanting or desiring” is one thing, but “making” is another. If you don’t see the difference between them, are you saying I am in the wrong or am the one lacking?
Tong2020 said:
↑
Real righteousness? And what do you refer to by that?
I explained it quite clearly. The kind of righteousness you referred to was a false righteousness. "In man's eyes" indicates someone who doesn't care what God thinks.
So, if I get that, by real righteousness, you mean faith + works, is that right?
Tong2020 said:
↑
May I ask, are there righteous works that a pagan or or an atheist or an unbeliever does? If there are, are they righteous (real) because they do such works? Would you say they are righteous in the sight of God?
These are semantical games. A "righteous person" does righteous things regularly. To say one is "righteous" is to basically say he or she does right on a regular basis. If an atheist or a pagan does righteous things, and they are simply ignorant, religiously, then I suppose they can be viewed as "good people," or as "righteous people," if they normally do kind things, despite their ignorance.
Not playing any game Randy.
What I gather from your response is that you believe that there are righteous works that an atheist or a pagan does. How about the unbeliever in God or unbeliever in Jesus Christ?
You say that if an atheist or a pagan does right on a regular basis, and are simply ignorant religiously, you believe that they are “righteous”. What do you mean by righteous there? Is that real righteousness or false righteousness?
Tong2020 said:
↑
In the case of Abraham, that is a matter of course. But with Israel, being a group of people, I could not say that all those who got themselves circumcised were with faith. So, I could not say that they were righteous inbthe sight of God.
This is not what I said, was it? And that's why I've struck a somewhat unfriendly note. You don't seem serious. I thought you were.
What? What are you talking about? Did I say anything wrong? Did I say any lie against you? Come on Randy. Why the negative attitude?
Here’s what you said;
Agree, Abraham and Israel obeyed God in the matter of circumcision and were considered really righteous, and not just righteous "in the sight of men." (Post#1119)
Tong
R1838