Calvinism vs. Arminianism

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Ronald Nolette

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Once again, you are doing the Calvinist dance": "He allowed it." Not in your doctrine he didn't. He caused it and is the cause of every murder, rape, and atrocity the world has ever known. In your theology, God is not just the father of lights who all good comes from, but the father of darkness who does all evil himself then blames it on Satan and us. Apparently, your God isn't big enough to allow free will and still win in the end. You just don't understand what sovereignty is. I know, because I puzzled with this myself, because of the way Calvinist's explained it. Sovereignty has nothing to do with one's actions. I can be sovereign over my family or a town or city without controlling anyone's actions. It just means I have the final authority to enforce the rules or not enforce them as I see fit. There's no indication biblically that God is micromanaging everyone. If that were true, most of the Bible would be nonsense, as God is constantly telling us that we are doing things he doesn't want us to do. Impossible if God is causing everything we do.


Well I can't answer for how other "Calvinists" explain it, I just answer for me.

But it seems yo uhave a bigger problem. If god did not want sin in His creation and sin came in anyway- then there is a will in the universe stronger than the will of God.

I take sovereignty at its face value:
sov·er·eign·ty
/ˈsäv(ə)rən(t)ē/

noun
  1. supreme power or authority.
    "how can we hope to wrest sovereignty away from the oligarchy and back to the people?"
And God"s sovereignty is far more than your human examples

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

God foreknew Satan would fall and Adam and Eve would fall, then created them anyway. what say you?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Again, in Calvinism this isn't true. Every choice is God's not ours. To quote John Calvin:

We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.”
[1]


“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.”[2]


“God had no doubt decreed before the foundation of the world what He would do with every one of us and had assigned to everyone by His secret counsel his part in life.”[3]


I am not John Calvin. While I agree with His basic five points (vs. th efive points of Armenianism) does not mean I accept all parts of Calvinist teaching.

So if you wish to argue the finer points of Calvinism, take it up with John calvin. However if you wish to argue predestination, election and foreknowledge and free will or no, I am more than sufficient to take up the case for th ethose.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I guess you have not heard of evanescent grace. You should study your religion more.
John Calvin explains: “Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” (3.2.11, Institutes, emphasis mine)

If God gives some temporary grace and then removes it, no one can really know if they are saved or not.


I never said I was a calvinist or believed in reformed theology. That is your false assumption.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I guess you have not heard of evanescent grace. You should study your religion more.
John Calvin explains: “Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” (3.2.11, Institutes, emphasis mine)

If God gives some temporary grace and then removes it, no one can really know if they are saved or not.

YOu appeart o know far more of the Calvinist religion than I do as I am not part of it! I just accept the five points Calvin argued at the council of Dort in rebuttal to Jacob Armenians five points.
 

Ronald Nolette

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.
Jesus died for the whole world. Either Jesus failed, or people of the world have free will.


Jesus did not die for the whole world- Jesus died as the propitiation of the sins of the whole world! That makes Jesus death the only acceptable payment one can offer to get into heaven.

What about the untold billions who never heard the gospel even once? They did not even have a chance to choose! They are lost and never got a choice! Paul in romans 11 made it clear apart from believing in the gospel no one can be saved!

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Acts 4: 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

So Buddha, Mohamed, Brahma, Krishna, Mary, good works, following our conscience cannot save us!

Where was teh free choice for all those billions of people?
 

Cooper

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Jesus did not die for the whole world- Jesus died as the propitiation of the sins of the whole world! That makes Jesus death the only acceptable payment one can offer to get into heaven.

What about the untold billions who never heard the gospel even once? They did not even have a chance to choose! They are lost and never got a choice! Paul in romans 11 made it clear apart from believing in the gospel no one can be saved!

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Acts 4: 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

So Buddha, Mohamed, Brahma, Krishna, Mary, good works, following our conscience cannot save us!

Where was teh free choice for all those billions of people?
You shot yourself in the foot. People need to believe, that is THEIR CHOICE and their choice alone.
.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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You shot yourself in the foot. People need to believe, that is THEIR CHOICE and their choice alone.
.


Well then answer the biblical questions then.

Romans 8 the natural man cannot please God- Trusting in god pleases Him so the natural man cannot trust God.

The natural man cannot perceive the things of God in 1 Cor. 2. Trusting in Christ is a thing of God, so the natural man cannot perceive it.

Faith comes by the word of God, not by free choice.Even the faith we have to believe is a gift from God Eph. 2
 

Grailhunter

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I do not believe that God predestines sins, that is your accusation, but not anything of me or the Bible. God predestines those He elects. He allowed sin to enter the world but did not predestine it, your thinking is incorrect.




Well the bible says you are wrong.

Romans 9:18-24
King James Version

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

AS FOR FREE WILL FOR AN UNBELIEVER?????

Romans 8:6-8
King James Version

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

An unsaved person is in the flesh- so how can they "freely" choose god?

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We were dead in our sins and by nature children of wrath, where is free will there?

Ephesians 1
King James Version

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


The Bible says here He chose us before we were even created!

Romans 6:12-16
King James Version

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


We are either slaves to sin or to God! slaves have no choice in the matter.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
King James Version

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unsaved man cannot even understand the things of god- to the unsaved, they are foolish!

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We cannot even come to Jesus (free will) unless God the Father draws us

DRAW:
Transliteration
helkō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἕλκω εἷλκον — 1x
εἵλκυσαν — 1x
εἵλκυσεν — 2x
ἕλκουσιν — 1x
ἑλκύσαι — 1x
ἑλκύσῃ — 1x
ἑλκύσω — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: xxi. σύρω, ἕλκω.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x
The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.

So unless God the Father "drags" us (the word is far stronger than wooing), we would not even come to jesus!

So please explain to me where free will is in the unsaved soul

I do not believe that God predestines sins, that is your accusation, but not anything of me or the Bible. God predestines those He elects. He allowed sin to enter the world but did not predestine it, your thinking is incorrect.

I am talking about the beliefs of Calvinism....if you need me to look them up for you I can?
God does not have favorites
If He predestines some to be saved, by lack of any other options, Calvinism is saying He damns people to hell.

So please explain to me where free will is in the unsaved soul?

Oh that is easy, every soul is unsaved until they choose Christ.

And God does have the ability to predestine, it is the amount that we disagree on, and we disagree on how He uses it.
He chose us all before the creation of all things and we choose to accept or not. No one drug me, I chose at a very young age. And it was an easy choice. It seemed to be such an easy thing to decide. I am sure He loved me before I decided, but because of His love I....I loved Him. If there was a "force" at work....it was His love.

 

Ronald Nolette

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I do not believe that God predestines sins, that is your accusation, but not anything of me or the Bible.


I am talking about the beliefs of Calvinism....if you need me to look them up for you I can?
God does not have favorites
If He predestines some to be saved, by lack of any other options, Calvinism is saying He damns people to hell.

So please explain to me where free will is in the unsaved soul?

Oh that is easy, every soul is unsaved until they choose Christ.

And God does have the ability to predestine, it is the amount that we disagree on, and we disagree on how He uses it.
He chose us all before the creation of all things and we choose to accept or not. No one drug me, I chose at a very young age. And it was an easy choice. It seemed to be such an easy thing to decide. I am sure He loved me before I decided, but because of His love I....I loved Him. If there was a "force" at work....it was His love.

I never said God predestines sins anywhere in my posts. You are making up false accusations against me now!

God predestines those He elects. He allowed sin to enter the world but did not predestine it, your thinking is incorrect.

I agree with all this and this is what I have said all along. I never said God predestined sin, but allowed it to take place for His reasons. Anything else added to that is someone bearing false witness against me.
 

Cooper

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Well then answer the biblical questions then.

Romans 8 the natural man cannot please God- Trusting in god pleases Him so the natural man cannot trust God.

The natural man cannot perceive the things of God in 1 Cor. 2. Trusting in Christ is a thing of God, so the natural man cannot perceive it.

Faith comes by the word of God, not by free choice.Even the faith we have to believe is a gift from God Eph. 2
Adam and Eve had personal knowledge of God, and they believed in him, but they chose to be disobedient of their own free will.

What did they do? They followed Satan. It was THEIR choice.
.
 
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Grailhunter

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I never said God predestines sins anywhere in my posts. You are making up false accusations against me now!



I agree with all this and this is what I have said all along. I never said God predestined sin, but allowed it to take place for His reasons. Anything else added to that is someone bearing false witness against me.

Not sure if you did this somehow or the forum....it is quirky sometimes...There are quotes here that are not from me. That is funny.
Post #289 addresses the rest of this.
And as far as sin....I cannot know what is running around in your head. I am address the written beliefs of Calvinism. So I am not accusing you of anything.
 

marks

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Since it is not specified, I think you would have to have a biblical reason for rejecting the idea that it is speaking of spiritual death in
It's not specified. Where the Bible is silent I remain silent.

Now turn your question back to yourself.

Much love!
 

marks

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It can be used in a context to mean humanity as in people in general. But it has nothing to do with individuals. To say otherwise is either ignorant or dishonest.
Speaking of dishonest . . . you find all this grievous fault with those who say that "for God so loved the world" that this means every person,

Oh no, you say, eisegesis, you say . . .

and here you are allowing that it can mean humanity in general!

I hope everyone sees this! I hope you will consider this.

I hope you will receive it in love.

Much love!
 
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marks

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The world includes everyone, everybody, us all, you all, we all, they all, them all, every individual, every person....when the world rotates everyone goes along for the ride...when it orbit the sun we are also in orbit. Now if someone falls off the world during all this, then you can say it does not include everybody. You cannot escape reality...and truth.
Context really does come to bear here, I think.

upload_2021-3-1_8-28-40.png

"For God so loved the kosmon". Not the word for the planet, "ge", earth. The simplest meaning for Kosmos is "adornment", and it speaks of an orderly arrangment.

Peter uses it here:

1 Peter 3:3 "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;"

John wrote telling us to "love not the world", and, "the world is passing away", and, "the whole world lies in wickedness".

And, God so loved the world.

The context then must be this is speaking of an adornment which God loves. Not the adornment mankind has given himself, in it's kingdoms and institutions and whatever, which is passing away.

This must be the adornment from God, humanity itself, set upon this earth.

And this language is inclusive, that's where we find "all". For God so loved the world, not "part" or "some of the world". For God so loved the world.

When God says it, it's fact.

When a sportcaster says it, its hyperbole, or, in other words, not actually true.

Much love!
 
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Renniks

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Well I can't answer for how other "Calvinists" explain it, I just answer for me.

But it seems yo uhave a bigger problem. If god did not want sin in His creation and sin came in anyway- then there is a will in the universe stronger than the will of God.

I take sovereignty at its face value:
sov·er·eign·ty
/ˈsäv(ə)rən(t)ē/

noun
  1. supreme power or authority.
    "how can we hope to wrest sovereignty away from the oligarchy and back to the people?"
And God"s sovereignty is far more than your human examples

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

God foreknew Satan would fall and Adam and Eve would fall, then created them anyway. what say you?
I say foreknowing something and causing it to happen is not the same thing at all. Have you never heard of Molinism? If this is the best of all possible worlds, sin was inevitable. God would rather have some people love him, even if it means most will rebel. He wanted us so much he died for us. Sin is just the absence of God... but you would make it something God decreed and caused to happen.
 
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Renniks

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I am not John Calvin. While I agree with His basic five points (vs. th efive points of Armenianism) does not mean I accept all parts of Calvinist teaching.

So if you wish to argue the finer points of Calvinism, take it up with John calvin. However if you wish to argue predestination, election and foreknowledge and free will or no, I am more than sufficient to take up the case for th ethose.
Lol, you don't understand that your view of election and predestination, makes what John Calvin said here true? You have already told me God caused sin, but now you're going to waffle about whether he chooses what shirt you chose to wear today?
 

Renniks

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I never said I was a calvinist or believed in reformed theology. That is your false assumption.
Then you are being inconsistent and trying to have it both ways and believing contradictions. That's your choice, but a double-minded man is unstable.
 

Renniks

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YOu appeart o know far more of the Calvinist religion than I do as I am not part of it! I just accept the five points Calvin argued at the council of Dort in rebuttal to Jacob Armenians five points.
BTW, it's Jacob Arminius. Who was persecuted by Calvinists. Not Armenians. Armenians live in Armenia.