Tongues

[robert derrick]

"A false teacher could teach right alongside a real teacher and there is no way to tell the difference.
Hard for me to believe the Lord would set it up in such a way."

That is a false statement and dangerous, especially if you try to teach it. One very simple and easy way to know for a fact who is teaching true doctrine of Christ and who is not. The Scriptures. Either what is taught is written or it is not. That is why the Bereans were more noble, because they searched the Scriptures for themselves to see if what Paul preached was so or not.

Likewise we must be able to know the difference, because John admonishes us to not receive them that bring not the doctrine of Christ. And so, we ought be able to know.

The most subtle false teachers, like the devil, are those who intermix their own ideas with Scripture, or give a sense of Scripture that is not clearly seen and readily known.

The reason believers are deceived by such things, is because they dont take enough time to know what is written vs. what is not. That was the error of Eve, when the serpent asked her : "Yea, hath God said..." or rather, 'Didn't God say...' A legitimate question with an evil intent.

And of course we know that the Lord has not set up anything in a way that is confusing or doubtful, because He is not the author of confusion. (I Cor 14:33)

 

[robert derrick]

"now if you think tongues is some prayer language, please explain why anyone would need a spirit language to speak to the Most High?"

If it is true that God gives an unknown tongue that only He understands to a believer to pray in, then the question would not be why, but when.

"the acts passage doesnt say they were babbling in an unknown language, it says they were speaking in the language of the nations"

They first spoke in other tongues while still in the upper room. Afterward, they were speaking in other languages outside before the gathered multitude.

In addition the house of Cornelius spoke with tongues upon receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is exactly what convinced Peter that Jesus saves Gentiles as well. If it was indeed another language, why? Speaking other languages in Acts 1 did impress the multitude of Jews who spoke many different languages, that these Galileans could not have possibly known. Yet in this insatnace Peter and Cornelius already were speaking the same language.

"and the bible never calls it a spirit prayer language, it says angel language. Paul was IMO being metaphoric here..."

1 Cor 13: 1: "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity..." Cant say with certainty that Paul is being metaphoric here, so to claim it as a fact is an unlearned assumption. In fact, elsewhere in Scripture we are told plainly if something is a parable, an allegory, i.e. metaphor, a sign, or a symbol.

The proof text that God gives an unknown tongue to believers specifically for the purpose of speaking with Himself is 1 Cor 14:2: "For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

That is a definitive and dispute ending statement. So, we see there is no question nor doubt about it. The problem is when believers refuse to believe something true and written, just because they dont want to believe it. Scripture never said we MUST speak in an unknown tongue to God, so there really is no reason to be so adamant that it doesnt exist. The main problem of course is when we begin to ask God "Why" He does certain things in certain ways, as an excuse for unbelief.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I said anyone can fake, the key word being anyone. The fake healing like the big money preachers do, that takes a professional top of the line con man team, tongues is something anyone can do, it can sound however you want, it can't be tested so there is never any way to know. The best fake healing con man crew can be tested and proven false if someone had the resources, but we can't do that with tongues. A false teacher could teach right alongside a real teacher and there is no way to tell the difference.
Hard for me to believe the Lord would set it up in such a way.

In all my many years of being associated with Pentecostals, I have never heard fake tongues, so maybe New Zealand Pentecostals are a different breed than American ones.

 

[robert derrick]

I've heard a lot here recently that the Assemblies of God had "voted out" speaking in tongues...

One thing is for sure, this is definitely one of the reasons "organized" religion in Christianity is mocked so much.

They 'voted' about it?? I guess reading the Scriptures to determine for yourself one way or another is too 'hard'. So, we can just vote about what we want to believe or not. Who needs the Scriptures?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Could someone define, and or explain to me where "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is found in the Bible?
Gift of the Holy Spirit? Yes!
Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Uhhhh?.....No.

"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5). Jesus Himself said it, so you can't get better than that!

 

[Paul Christensen]

1 Corinthians 14:22

Large enough for you to see???

To God Be The Glory

So? Just quoting a single verse of Scripture without giving any kind of exposition is pretty well meaningless. How does this verse support your view that tongues is not for modern churches?

You didn't quote verse 21 in which Paul gives the reason why.

So it looks like just quoting verse 22 on its own is an attempt to twist the Scripture to mean something that it doesn't. Paul is not quoting verse 21 and saying verse 22 to discount tongues. He is supporting the fact that when unbelievers hear believers speaking in tongues (ie: using the ministry gift along with interpretation in church) it is a sign of impending judgment on them and the urgent need to get right with God.

 

[jaybird]

Maybe for you it would be hard to tell the difference.

Bible states the elect could be deceived.
Bible does not state the elect will deceived.



The Lord did not set it up that way.

Please explain how one tells the difference.

 

[jaybird]

In all my many years of being associated with Pentecostals, I have never heard fake tongues, so maybe New Zealand Pentecostals are a different breed than American ones.

Ok but can these tongues be faked?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Please explain how one tells the difference.

By following the Berean example, who "searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things be so".
Deception comes into where people make the Bible say what they want it to say by quoting random verses out of context and shoehorning the Bible into their own opinions.

Soundness of doctrine comes out of forming opinions and principles out of what the Bible actually says.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Ok but can these tongues be faked?

Of course they can. Mormons, pagan temple priests and those in the occult do exactly that.

 

[jaybird]

By following the Berean example, who "searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things be so".
Deception comes into where people make the Bible say what they want it to say by quoting random verses out of context and shoehorning the Bible into their own opinions.

Soundness of doctrine comes out of forming opinions and principles out of what the Bible actually says.

are you sure because when we do that we do not find these tongues anywhere outside of Paul.

Of course they can. Mormons, pagan temple priests and those in the occult do exactly that.

ok so we take one of these guys and stick them in a mainstream church building, they do the fake tongues, how do you know they are fake?

 

[Paul Christensen]

are you sure because when we do that we do not find these tongues anywhere outside of Paul.

ok so we take one of these guys and stick them in a mainstream church building, they do the fake tongues, how do you know they are fake?

1. Paul's writing was inspired directly by the Holy Spirit. That is why his letters are recognised as Holy Scripture. If you read carefully you will see that Paul says a lot of things about the basics of the Gospel that are not found anywhere else. So to say that tongues could be fake because Paul was the only one who taught how to use it properly, we have to be consistent and say that the fruit of the Spirit and "there is no condemnation" has to be fake because Paul was the only one who said those things also.

2. Pentecostal people are not mentally deficient; well, at least NZ Pentecostals aren't. I don't know about American ones. If a Mormon, pagan, or occult person came into a NZ Pentecostal church he would immediately be recognised as very different. They would be showing the wrong fruit.

From what I see, most, if not all the fakes come out of America anyway, so if some guy with an American accent walked into a NZ Pentecostal church, he would immediately be viewed with suspicion until he was able to prove himself genuine. Some years ago, the Methodist church in Chile held a conference. They invited a minister friend of mine to be one of the main speakers. They told him that they preferred New Zealanders because they had no confidence in ministry from the United States. They wanted ministry that told the truth and gave sound doctrine. This gives a clue to how churches outside of the United States view American preachers and teachers. I know that this is a generalisation, but it reflects the amount of false doctrine and teaching in US churches that it is difficult to separate "the wheat from the tares".

 

[jaybird]

1. Paul's writing was inspired directly by the Holy Spirit. That is why his letters are recognised as Holy Scripture. If you read carefully you will see that Paul says a lot of things about the basics of the Gospel that are not found anywhere else. So to say that tongues could be fake because Paul was the only one who taught how to use it properly, we have to be consistent and say that the fruit of the Spirit and "there is no condemnation" has to be fake because Paul was the only one who said those things also.

2. Pentecostal people are not mentally deficient; well, at least NZ Pentecostals aren't. I don't know about American ones. If a Mormon, pagan, or occult person came into a NZ Pentecostal church he would immediately be recognised as very different. They would be showing the wrong fruit.

From what I see, most, if not all the fakes come out of America anyway, so if some guy with an American accent walked into a NZ Pentecostal church, he would immediately be viewed with suspicion until he was able to prove himself genuine. Some years ago, the Methodist church in Chile held a conference. They invited a minister friend of mine to be one of the main speakers. They told him that they preferred New Zealanders because they had no confidence in ministry from the United States. They wanted ministry that told the truth and gave sound doctrine. This gives a clue to how churches outside of the United States view American preachers and teachers. I know that this is a generalisation, but it reflects the amount of false doctrine and teaching in US churches that it is difficult to separate "the wheat from the tares".

but you said be like the berean Jews, they tested Pauls teaching against scripture.
so why is it we can test all things against scripture but we can not test this one against scripture?

 

[Paul Christensen]

but you said be like the berean Jews, they tested Pauls teaching against scripture.
so why is it we can test all things against scripture but we can not test this one against scripture?

How come it can't be tested with Scripture? Paul wrote a whole chapter on what tongues is and how when when to use the gift. But then if you have had it drummed into you by your mentors that modern tongues is false, then even if Paul is abundantly clear about the gift in 1 Corinthians 14, you won't believe it. Therefore, it is not because you can't read the chapter and understand what Paul is saying, but you are choosing not to believe what he is saying in relation to the modern use of tongues.

 

[Triumph1300]

how do you know they are fake?

By the Holy Spirit.

 

[Triumph1300]

Paul wrote a whole chapter on what tongues is and how when when to use the gift. But then if you have had it drummed into you by your mentors that modern tongues is false, then even if Paul is abundantly clear about the gift in 1 Corinthians 14, you won't believe it.

And that sums it up correctly.
End of story.

 

[jaybird]

By the Holy Spirit.

But that's basically one person with the spirit (claiming the spirit) saying yes and another with the spirit saying no. Do you see the problem?

 

[jaybird]

How come it can't be tested with Scripture? Paul wrote a whole chapter on what tongues is and how when when to use the gift. But then if you have had it drummed into you by your mentors that modern tongues is false, then even if Paul is abundantly clear about the gift in 1 Corinthians 14, you won't believe it. Therefore, it is not because you can't read the chapter and understand what Paul is saying, but you are choosing not to believe what he is saying in relation to the modern use of tongues.

It's not abundantly clear as there is no mention of a spirit or prayer language.
Why did the berean Jews test Paul's teaching if according to you, they do not need a confirmation witness. Ironic that Paul himself says get a 2nd witness.

 

[NayborBear]

Ok but can these tongues be faked?

I don't think they can be faked. Yet, I think the larger question should be "to what benefit?"
If the speaking in tongues benefits only the one, or ones speaking on the individual level? Inasmuch as it causes those ones to continue believing? Then, it would appear the Holy Spirit is doing that which it was sent to do.
It would then seem, the responsibility/duty/obligation of the earnestly coveting of the best gifts (1 Corinthians 12:31), would/should fall upon those that do the speaking in tongues. Especially, should the one/s speaking in tongues be asking the Lord of the Harvest to send forth more laborers into His harvest!(Matthew 9:38/Luke 10:2)
Of the which, is a 2-edged prayer/request/asking of! A?, for the unbelievers, and B?, and to me? (and others it would seem), more importantly? the best gifts!

So, for a surety? NONE of us believers want this:
Romans 11:
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

In our coveting earnestly the best gifts? We should, as "lively stones" be doing these things!
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable TO God BY Jesus Christ.

As far as I know? I myself, don't speak in tongues. Or? If I do? I don't know that I am!
Which begs the question of these best gifts.
Are these gifts also in an unknown tongue, or language?

 

[jaybird]

I don't think they can be faked. Yet, I think the larger question should be "to what benefit?"
If the speaking in tongues benefits only the one, or ones speaking on the individual level? Inasmuch as it causes those ones to continue believing? Then, it would appear the Holy Spirit is doing that which it was sent to do.
It would then seem, the responsibility/duty/obligation of the earnestly coveting of the best gifts (1 Corinthians 12:31), would/should fall upon those that do the speaking in tongues. Especially, should the one/s speaking in tongues be asking the Lord of the Harvest to send forth more laborers into His harvest!(Matthew 9:38/Luke 10:2)
Of the which, is a 2-edged prayer/request/asking of! A?, for the unbelievers, and B?, and to me? (and others it would seem), more importantly? the best gifts!

So, for a surety? NONE of us believers want this:
Romans 11:
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

In our coveting earnestly the best gifts? We should, as "lively stones" be doing these things!
1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable TO God BY Jesus Christ.

As far as I know? I myself, don't speak in tongues. Or? If I do? I don't know that I am!
Which begs the question of these best gifts.
Are these gifts also in an unknown tongue, or language?

I agree with you NB.
Another thing to consider, if the tongues benefit the one person speaking, how does it benefit them? The only benefit I see is they can tell people they speak in tongues, other than that it serves no purpose