Once Saved Always Saved

[justbyfaith]

This is what I've noticed about Ferris, he writes both ways. As if he knows, but that he can't know. Word salad!

Like you said . . . we have certainty or uncertainty. But the double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Much love!

Weren't you the one that was recently complaining about ad hominem attacks?

 

[marks]

Many seems to be looking more to themselves than to God. That they never stop looking at what they think they must do to be saved or to stay saved or to find security of their salvation. It robs them of the peace, rest and assurance of God, through faith. For they think they could have it any other way, other than through faith.

Perhaps some simply haven't "come to the end of themselves", I can't be so helpless as all that, can I?

Yes, I can! And yes, God is gracious!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Those who believe that they could lose their salvation only indicates where they are now and what faith they have. Many of such people have it upon their power to keep themselves from not losing their salvation rather than in the power of Him who they claim to have saved them. They have forgotten that they haven’t saved themselves but were save by God and by the power of God. That they were saved at a time that they were weak. That now that they were made strong, having been given power by God, they become arrogant, forgetful, that what they are able to do now, they could not without God. They forget the teaching of Jesus that without God they could do nothing. Nothing, if you know what that means.

@marks

Tong
R2687

The beauty of it is . . . God has His ways of teaching us these things, and He is faithful, even if we are not.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

This is what I've noticed about Ferris, he writes both ways. As if he knows, but that he can't know. Word salad!

Oy vey. The lack of discernment is painful. "Both" ways includes the 2nd part of Matthew 7:21 that qualifies only those who actually act. Not sure what is confusing about this, beyond that it goes against your dogma.


True Disciples
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:21

 

[marks]

Observation -
Repeatedly unsaved men ARE WARNED...
Experiencing A TASTE, of Gods heavenly gifts, is NOT the fulfillment of Receiving Salvation.

And some with joy immediately received the word, but in the time of persecution fell away, because they had no root.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I wonder what 'cut off' means?


Jesus, the True Vine
15 “I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.
John 15:1-2

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Who are the “we” who have access to grace? Is it not those who are saved? Those who received faith and have faith? And who are those who have faith, but those who were made alive so that they see and hear?

We obviously have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2).

So those who are made live, are made alive because of faith.

Faith comes first, by whom they have access into grace. So, grace comes after faith.

No one who are in a state of death, rendered dead to God, could see nor hear, more so could have faith, unless they be first made alive.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now that is a strawman for as far as I know @Mark does not have such opinion. Further, I know not one in this board who has that opinion. Do you know any?

Yes, @Behold definitely holds to the false gospel that a man continues to be saved even if he falls away.

He may try to deny it now; for that it is such a ridiculous notion and therefore he should be ashamed of himself for believing in it.

Not in my understanding of his posts.

Tong
R2714

 

[marks]

It’s clear that you believe. It’s clear that you hold firmly. It’s clear you are saved. Since you accused me of taking “saved” as forever, please clarify if what is the sense of “saved” when you say “I am saved.” Is that forever or not?

Also, are you sure you are really saved or not? Since you say you cannot know?

Tong
R2709

The real difference here is what our salvation is.

I believe our salvation is sure, that when God reconciles us, we are completely reconciled. When God gives us rebirth, we are completely new. When God gives us eternal life, we are alive eternally. When God justifies us, we are innocent.

Apparently not all believe that.

Being justified, they may yet be condemned.
Being eternally alive, they may yet die.
Being born of God, they may yet still be flesh.
Being reconciled, they may yet be separated.

Who is it that condemns? Jesus is He who justifies us.
How will we die being united the the One Who is immortal?
How shall we live in flesh now that we are alive in the heavenlies?
Who or what can ever separate us from God? What God has joined together, let no man separate. Are you stronger than He?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Oy vey. The lack of discernment is painful. "Both" ways includes the 2nd part of Matthew 7:21 that qualifies only those who actually act. Not sure what is confusing about this, beyond that it goes against your dogma.


True Disciples
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:21

My dogma . . .

Sure.

The doublemindedness I'm speaking of is that which says, "I know I'm saved, but maybe I won't be."

That kind of confusion results when someone looks to themself instead of Christ, to their ability to make their faith continue, instead of having a continuing faith given them by God.

Did God buy us for Himself or not?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Weren't you the one that was recently complaining about ad hominem attacks?

Point it out if you see one, feel free!

 

[marks]

Again, you are not the only one that we are dealing with on these boards.

Well, like I said, if you want to take that track, "we" will put you on ignore. I'm interested in discussing things with you, but not like that.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

as far as I know @Mark does not have such opinion.

I think that is true. @marks does not believe you can go back to unbelief for it to even be an argument.

Further, I know not one in this board who has that opinion. Do you know any?

@Behold holds that opinion....

However, if you lose faith, fall away, etc........and you were born again before you did, you are just as saved as the Blood Of Jesus has the power to cleanse you of all sin, including those, and all others..
See, sin was dealt with by God on the Cross, and you denying it, wont change it for me, or for any real believer.
Once you are born again, you are always born again, and how you think or believe, later, has no effect on the NEW BIRTH.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The doublemindedness I'm speaking of is that which says, "I know I'm saved, but maybe I won't be."

That's only double mindedness according to osas teaching. As long as you are only capable of seeing things the osas way the anti-osas paradigm of thought will seem like foolishness to you. You operate with a standard of measure that is prejudiced by the teachings of osas. So nothing will ever measure any different than what your standard of measurement tells you it measures.

 

[marks]

That's only double mindedness according to osas teaching. As long as you are only capable of seeing things the osas way the anti-osas paradigm of thought will seem like foolishness to you. You operate with a standard of measure that is prejudiced by the teachings of osas. So nothing will ever measure any different than what your standard of measurement tells you it measures.

You keep trying to make this about your precious Anti-OSAS. Stop trying to make everything about OSAS. This is your red herring, and you use it a lot instead of offering exposition on the verses we are discussing. I've yet to see you exegete the passages, but that doesn't surprise me.

Just read the passages, don't change them around. Forget about doctrines, first try to understand the verses for what they say of themselves. Not trying to make them fit something else.

Staying with this one for the moment . . .

You've become a partaker of Christ, but that's only true if you continue in your confidence to the end.

IF you don't, you didn't become a partaker. Not that you did and stopped. That's not what the verse says.

So, first we accept the reality of the wording of this passage . . . if we will . . . and from that, THEN we go on to form our doctrines.

FORGET about your anti-OSAS. Forget about Whether you can or can't, will or won't, did or didn't, forget about everything else and focus on what the passage actually states.

Much love!

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

I wonder what 'cut off' means?


Jesus, the True Vine
15 “I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.
John 15:1-2

That’s with regards fruit bearing. It’s pruning.

Tong
2716

 

[marks]

Now that is a strawman for as far as I know @Mark does not have such opinion. Further, I know not one in this board who has that opinion. Do you know any?

Tong
R2689

This thread is rife with logical fallacies!

Have you ever gone through a thread and actually catalogued all the logical fallacies? I started doing that once, I picked a few threads to look at, but quickly realized there are just SO MANY, particularly in certain ones, like this one.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You keep trying to make this about your precious Anti-OSAS. Stop trying to make everything about OSAS. This is your red herring, and you use it a lot instead of offering exposition on the verses we are discussing. I've yet to see you exegete the passages, but that doesn't surprise me.

Just read the passages, don't change them around. Forget about doctrines, first try to understand the verses for what they say of themselves. Not trying to make them fit something else.

Staying with this one for the moment . . .

You've become a partaker of Christ, but that's only true if you continue in your confidence to the end.

IF you don't, you didn't become a partaker. Not that you did and stopped. That's not what the verse says.

So, first we accept the reality of the wording of this passage . . . if we will . . . and from that, THEN we go on to form our doctrines.

FORGET about your anti-OSAS. Forget about Whether you can or can't, will or won't, did or didn't, forget about everything else and focus on what the passage actually states.

Much love!

Much love!

I already went over Hebrews 3:14. And I know you read it because I think you replied to it. I'm the one that can acknowledge that a person can read it more than one way. I explained what the failure of the osas way of looking at it is. It only makes sense from the anti-osas view.

 

[Taken]

I wonder what 'cut off' means?


Jesus, the True Vine
15 “I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more.
John 15:1-2

Parallels - God is Unseen, but Teaches men VIA Parallels of things that are Familiar and Seen by men.

The Gardner Oversees the Big Picture - The Plot of Ground, the Soil, the Planning, the Arranging of groups, the Ammending, the SEEDS, the Intent to Foster and Ensure Strong Worthy, Useful Production.

From Planting the seed, to the Root growth, to the Spreading Vine, to the Branches thereof, TO... accomplishing the Intended Production of Worthy Fruit....

A Worthy Fruit of a literal Plant; extends OFF a Branch the DRAWS it's Strength and worthyness from the Branch, and the Branch Draws from the Vine, and the Vine from the Root.

Considering the literal FRUIT... It provides nutrition (MEAT). It MAY, receive IT'S own Requirements Directly From the SEED bearer, ( GOD and His ... SUN and RAIN and His shifting of Earth / dry land ).... and produce Worthy Fruit, that is FULL of Reproducing SEEDS ... that Repeat going into Soil, and Repeat the process.)

Other Fruits Require MORE Tending, Care, Oversight, Plucking Weeds, (that are trying to overtake the Strength FROM the soil and root and vines and branches ), may require watering, clearing for sunlight to reach).

It's a parallel -
The FRUIT that HAS Gods Strength, IS guaranteed accounted Worthy according to God...AND Requires Little "outside" Effort.

The Warning IS a parallel NOTICE...
Allowing the LACK of "Oversight", CAN Cause the Fruit, to be without worth....TO GOD, and ultimately TO mankind.

* When A man RELIES ON the Lord God AS the mans "OVERSEER", the mans "ROOT" of Strength... the man IS RELYING ON GODS POWER.

* When A man ignores God, and Relies on himself... he is cautioned and warned.

* When A man rejects God, and Relies on himself, and the Worlds philosophies of Power (typically Wealth and Position).... that man carries no Consideration of Gods Oversight of the mans FRUIT.... and Gods Reaction IS TO CUT OFF the BRANCH, that WAS OFFERED Gods STRENGTH, (but rejected it0.

INANUTSHELL...in an analogy...
If your Power Company is providing you with electrical Power....and you stop acknowledging that you are being provided electricity BY your electric Company....your electric Company will "cut you off", and STOP,
Giving you electric Service.

Same concept. If one Rejects God...He cuts them OFF, from His Strength, (called cutting OFF the Branch), that He Offered, Freely Gave, and was Rejected IT was FROM and BY Him.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, when you said that you cannot know of you are really saved or not, you really meant yo can know, since you now say you know with certainty that you are saved? Be clear please.

Tong
R2711

Did I respond to this?

You can know you are saved in anti-osas. What has yet to be known is if you're going to continue to believe the word, retaining it in you, and so satisfy the ongoing condition for remaining in Christ and the Father and the promise of eternal life. Even osas says you can't know if you're really a rocky type of soil, where the word does not stay in the soil, until the end when you can see if it did stay in the soil, thus proving you to be really saved.

 

[marks]

I already went over Hebrews 3:14. And I know you read it because I think you replied to it. I'm the one that can acknowledge that a person can read it more than one way. I explained what the failure of the osas way of looking at it is. It only makes sense from the anti-osas view.

No. Give your exegesis of the passage. Not just how your doctrines lead you to read it. OR, the doctrines you are anti.

What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis? | GotQuestions.org

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

You assert this can be read in different ways. I assert the text allows only one of those ways.

We have become partakers of Christ if. There is a state of being we either are, or are not, and this state of being is known by what comes next, that is, if we hold our confidence stedfast to the end.

If you hold your confidence stedfast to the end, this means that you have become a partaker in Christ, If you do not, you did not.

The perfect tense just sweetens the pie.

Ignore it if you must. Ignore everything else, and just read this verse for what it is.

Don't insert things it does not say.

Much love!