Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Those who are believing today, are they partakers of Christ?

Yes.

Why do you say yes?

Is the “if” part in Hebrews 3:14 which goes “ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,“ true at this point? Does it not say “to the END”?

Tong2020 said: ↑
Those who stop believing today, were they partakers of Christ before today?

Maybe. Maybe not. Either is possible. In osas, how long must one believe before they can be sure the believing they've been doing has been real showing them to really be a partaker of Christ?

The important thing is that you are a believer, now. Whether or not the person who doesn't believe today was ever saved or not might be an interesting question, but it is not an important one. What matters is that you are believing today and that you keep believing, just as the Bible exhorts us to do.

Why would it be maybe yes or maybe no, when the “if” clearly says “if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end”? If one stops believing today, is it not clear that the “if” is not met? And if it is not met, does it not go to say that he had not become a partaker of Christ?

Let’s not get the OSAS or OSNAS into the mix and read the passage free from either views. I am trying to make an unbiased discussion of the passage. So I will not even attempt to address questions that considers said views.

Tong
R2736

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

The becoming partakers in Christ clearly depends on the “if”. So, one becomes a partaker of Christ when the “if” is true and not when it is false. I think we can all agree to that reading, can we?

Yes, but that reading can be understood in two different ways.....

Osas: If you keep believing you show that you have the ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ.

Anti-Osas: You continue to have the ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ if you keep believing.

Remember, the Present tense brings the results of a past completed action up the present (not forever into the future). And that result continuing onward is conditional on your continued believing.

Let’s just put forth our understanding without getting into either views.

Tong
R2737

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I don’t know what the doctrine of “once saved always saved”

If you believe that you can never lose your salvation, no matter how you behave after getting saved, then you believe that once you are saved you are always saved.

Only those who defend Once Saved Always Saved use the term “once saved, not always saved” or “NOSAS”.

If that is what the doctrine of OSAS is, then I am not in agreement with it.

My view on that matter is somewhat like this, one who had been saved by God, will be kept by God and He will not lose him/her. As God had worked out to save him, He will work out to keep him.

Tong
R2738

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why would it be maybe yes or maybe no, when the “if” clearly says “if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end”?

Because it doesn't say either way if he actually had the ongoing effect of having been made a partaker of Christ to begin with, just that he has to continue to believe to have that continuing effect now in the present. Though I'm sure the implication is he had in fact been made a partaker of Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Is the “if” part in Hebrews 3:14 which goes “ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,“ true at this point? Does it not say “to the END”?

I don't think the writer is trying to say you can't really know if you're a partaker of Christ until you know if you believed to your dying breath. In the Greek, "even to the end" is acceptable, and in my opinion the only reasonable way to understand it. Otherwise, according to your interpretation of the verse, no one can know for sure if they are truly saved until their dying breath. Because it is only at that time that you know if you believed all the way to the end.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

My view on that matter is somewhat like this, one who had been saved by God, will be kept by God and He will not lose him/her. As God had worked out to save him, He will work out to keep him.

God did not work to save anyone, rather:

"...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

And:

"...he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:22)

So though you say that you do not subscribe to Once Saved Always Saved, your view (as you put it) is in the same spirit of Once Saved Always Saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Let’s just put forth our understanding without getting into either views.

Tong
R2737

I'm fine with that. Regardless of whether my view represents an anti-Osas viewpoint or not, I'm confident that my understanding of the verse is the grammatically correct, logical, and reasonable one. We can leave the Osas and anti-Osas labels off of our interpretations and each person can draw their own conclusion as to what argument defends or does not defend Osas.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why would it be maybe yes or maybe no, when the “if” clearly says “if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end”?

Because it doesn't say either way if he actually had the ongoing effect of having been made a partaker of Christ to begin with, just that he doesn't have that if he doesn't continue to believe. Though I'm sure the implication is he had in fact been made a partaker of Christ.

<<<just that he doesn't have that if he doesn't continue to believe.>>>

Not just that, but specified “to the end”.

Tong
R2739

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Is the “if” part in Hebrews 3:14 which goes “ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,“ true at this point? Does it not say “to the END”?

I don't think the writer is trying to say you can't really know if you're a partaker of Christ until you know if you believed to your dying breath. In the Greek, "even to the end" is acceptable, and in my opinion the only reasonable way to understand it. Otherwise, according to your interpretation of the verse, no one can know for sure if they are truly saved until their dying breath. Because it is only at that time that you know if you believed all the way to the end.

My interpretation is this:

The end will tell or manifest whether one’s faith is the faith that comes from God or not. So that if one continues to the end, he indeed have become partaker of Christ from the day he had that faith. But if not, then he had not been a partaker of Christ.

Such faith is by which one knows that he is truly saved or not. For scriptures says that faith is the evidence of things not seen or of things we do not see.

Tong
R2740

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<just that he doesn't have that if he doesn't continue to believe.>>>

Not just that, but specified “to the end”.

Tong
R2739

For clarity I had edited that post, before you posted, to this ↓↓↓

Because it doesn't say either way if he actually had the ongoing effect of having been made a partaker of Christ to begin with, just that he has to continue to believe to have that continuing effect now in the present.

Feel free to respond accordingly.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
My view on that matter is somewhat like this, one who had been saved by God, will be kept by God and He will not lose him/her. As God had worked out to save him, He will work out to keep him.

God did not work to save anyone, rather:

"...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

And:

"...he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Matthew 10:22)

So though you say that you do not subscribe to Once Saved Always Saved, your view (as you put it) is in the same spirit of Once Saved Always Saved.

Of course salvation is the work of God. I totally disagree and reject the view that God dis not work to save anyone.

Regarding Romans 10:13, it says “call”. One can only call to God of He had faith. And how does one have faith if not God gives him faith? And how does faith comes to one except by hearing and hearing the word of God? It is God who gives faith and it is God who enables one to hear. Those are all the workings of God. Well at least in my view.

Regarding enduring to the end, in my view, it is God who enables the saved to endure to the end.

Tong
R2741

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Let’s just put forth our understanding without getting into either views.

I'm fine with that. Regardless of whether my view represents an anti-Osas viewpoint or not, I'm confident that my understanding of the verse is the grammatically correct, logical, and reasonable one. We can leave the Osas and anti-Osas labels off of our interpretations and each person can draw their own conclusion as to what argument defends or does not defend Osas.

Needless to say, I too am confident that my understanding is the right understanding.

Tong
R2742

 

[Wrangler]

As I said those scriptures talks about fruit bearing. The figure is about fruit bearing and not about salvation or getting saved or being lost.

You're in denial. The passage is talking about salvation, being cut from the vine. Matthew 7:21 & John 15:1-2 are both talking about Salvation. And both passages explain the pathway is not inaction through Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

This is really a matter of faith. For it involves that which is unseen to us, the LATER.

Well, it is a matter of faith that means action now, OBEDIENCE. It is not a matter of feeling that your feelings (trust) entitle you to salvation. Otherwise, Matthew 7:21 & John 15:1-2 would not be said by our Lord.

To suppose being fruitful is of no practical concern is a meaningless faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Needless to say, I too am confident that my understanding is the right understanding.

Tong
R2742

I will show you grammatically, logically, and in regard to reason the flaws your view has. But this is just for fun discussion. What is important is that we both agree that the true believer is just that, a true believer, trusting in God's promises, even to the very end.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
As I said those scriptures talks about fruit bearing. The figure is about fruit bearing and not about salvation or getting saved or being lost.

You're in denial. The passage is talking about salvation, being cut from the vine. Matthew 7:21 & John 15:1-2 are both talking about Salvation. And both passages explain the pathway is not inaction through Christ.

No, it’s clear. The passage is talking about fruit bearing. One who says it is not fruit bearing is the one who is in denial.

Mat.7:21 is about true believers and hypocrites.

Tong
R2744

 

[Behold]

Even if Jesus' goodness is God's blood atonement, it should be clear that the blood sanctifies
This would indicate that there will be a change of attitude and behaviour when the blood is applied;

What is "clear" is that the Blood Atonement is what God uses to REDEEM, once He accepts our Faith "as Righteousness".
In other words.....If you Give God your faith, God then accepts this Faith and Gives you His Salvation.

Philippians 1:6

Being Born again, is God's Salvation, that occurs after you are "blood bought" and made RIGHTEOUS.

Should you from that day of your SALVATION begin to live a life outwardly, that reflects the inward "new Creation"?
Of course.
This is "discipleship", that is "Present your body a living sacrifice".
Its what you are to do because God has already SAVED You.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
This is really a matter of faith. For it involves that which is unseen to us, the LATER.

Well, it is a matter of faith that means action now, OBEDIENCE. It is not a matter of feeling that your feelings (trust) entitle you to salvation. Otherwise, Matthew 7:21 & John 15:1-2 would not be said by our Lord.

To suppose being fruitful is of no practical concern is a meaningless faith.

It is a matter of faith as I have explained in my post. The case of the thief at the cross is not an exception as many contends. It is by faith that he was saved, and that by grace. And saved he is, what happens of his works?

You see, we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. Not saying that works are of no importance. But that, it is just not through which we are saved by God.

God is the Savior. He is the one who saves. And He saves through faith that comes from Him which He gives to them whom He saves, and not through works that man does. By this, we understand why no matter how many good works a man does, such works will not attain to his salvation, if he had not faith. And by that too, we understand why one who have faith, even while he had not done any good work such as the thief at the cross, is saved.

Tong
R2745

 

[Behold]

I think that is true. @marks does not believe you can go back to unbelief for it to even be an argument.

@Behold holds that opinion....

The blood atonement, is not a "opinion".
You are foolish to think its "temporary" once applied.
Thats a fact.
See, Being born again, is not an "opinion", its a fact, or is not, depending on each of us..
You only rant about "faith, but you never talk about "born again".
Why is that, Ferris?
Justbyfaith, has this same rant issue, also.

Holding onto faith, can't keep you saved, nor can it cause you to be un-born again, if you dont hold unto it.

Faith is not the savior, so, holding onto it, is not going 2 save you, or keep you saved.

Salvation is God given, and Blood Bought. God provided it on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago, and finished it by death and resurrection.
Salvation is all of God and none of you. Your part is to receive it. God's part is to apply it.
You try to do God's part, and that is "fallen from Grace".

If you are born again, then you are eternally secure, because it's GOD who saves and keeps you saved.
Philippians 1:6

When you come to understand this, if you ever do..... then your heresy will depart because God's Grace will have replaced it within your understanding.

 

[Behold]

I think that there are a few here who agree with me that the understanding that @Behold is portraying is that if someone falls away, they continue to have salvation.

Well, there is noone on a Christian Forum, found anywhere on Earth, who needs approval more than you, justbyfaith.
So, if you can get a few heretics to root for ya, then, you still have nothing.
At least we can agree on that...

And regarding your idea that i teach that being born again, can't be changed by behavior issues or though process.......well, sure.
That's correct.