Tongues

[Paul Christensen]

Actually "Mormons" believe that the gift of tongues is being able to miraculously speak in a language unknown to them, but known to another person, for the purpose of preaching the Gospel. An example of this would be a British missionary being able to suddenly teach a lesson in Mandarin to a Chinese person.

This has been known to happen. A woman went to preach the Gospel to an Italian community. As she started to preach she found she was preaching in Italian, a language she had never learned. She retained the language for the rest of her life. I think it was St Francis of Assisi who tried to preach the Gospel to French people, and prayed for help from God, and found himself preaching to them in French, resulting in many conversions to Christ. Early 20th Century Pentecostals when speaking in tongues had the experience of speaking known languages, and at least on one occasion someone gave a tongues message and someone else interpreted by faith, and a native speaker of the language understood the language, and said that the interpretation was entirely accurate, amazingly coming from a believer who had no understanding of the tongues language.

The same happened to a friend of mine in a prayer meeting. He spoke in tongues, and a Ghanaian visited told him what he said in his own village dialect. My friend had no idea of that dialect. I had the experience of praying in tongues in a service, and a NZ Maori lady told me that I was saying encouraging things in her native Maori language. I had no idea I was speaking Maori.

A young Cantonese woman was sitting in an evangelistic meeting and when people were invited to go forward to receive Christ, she heard a European man who knew no Chinese, speak in pure Cantonese, "You need to go forward to receive Christ." She did, and got saved.

In another service a lady from Wales, heard a person praying in pure Welsh language without the trace of an accent, which is impossible for a non-Welsh person who had learned the language. The person was speaking praises to God, and when she spoke to the man afterwards, he told her that he didn't know the language and all he was doing was praying in tongues.

So, you are correct. It does happen. But this does not mean that others who pray in tongues are incorrect if their language is not understood by others.

 

[Waiting on him]

1 Corinthians 14:2 says that a person speaking in tongues is speaking to God. Isn't that praying? What would you call it?

Luke 8:10 KJV
[10] And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I believe what Paul is trying to say here is when he is speaking in tongues it’s actually the mysteries of God. He’s not referring to unintelligible words, rather words that edify.

 

[Waiting on him]

1 Corinthians 14:2 says that a person speaking in tongues is speaking to God. Isn't that praying? What would you call it?

Luke 8:10 KJV
[10] And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I believe what Paul is trying to say here is when he is speaking in tongues it’s actually the mysteries of God. He’s not referring to unintelligible words, rather words that edify.
See those who have the Spirit within hear the things of God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Greek: μυστήριον
Transliteration: mustērion
Pronunciation: moos-tay'-ree-on
Definition: From a derivative of μύω muō (to shutthe mouth); a secret or mystery (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
KJV Usage: mystery (27x).
Occurs: 27
In verses: 27

 

[NayborBear]

Thank you for posting from Micah chapter three. We read in the New Testament of one house being built on shifting sand and another house built on the Rock Christ Jesus. The rulers and prophets in Micah three remind me of all those false teachers who lead people astray. God’s message to them and all those like them is that the sun will go down on them and their day will end. They will cover their faces in shame and admit that their messages were not from God. They took the name of the Lord in vain saying, “The LORD is among us, is he not? Nothing bad can possibly happen to us!”

This is God’s message to you false teachers: “The night will close about you and cut off all your visions; darkness will cover you with never a word from God. The sun will go down upon you, and your day will end. Then at last you will cover your faces in shame and admit that your messages were not from God. It is because of you that Jerusalem will be plowed like a field and become a heap of rubble.” (The Living Bible)

The prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem, and so it is with all those who lead others astray when they say, "Nothing bad can possibly happen to us! We are God's elect and are always saved."

For the time is coming (has come) when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
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Let's see here! T'was what about 4,000 years from Adam to Christ?
And is a shade over 2,000 years from Christ til now?
Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The Essenes seen what was going on! And got outta dodge!
Lotta Christians today believe as they've been taught, the rapture is their ticket out!
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Hmmm!

 

[Cooper]

The internet is like our roads and motor vehicles. It is how it is used. A motor vehicle can be of great use if used rightfully, but it can kill in irresponsible hands. Who was it who said that guns don't kill people, people do. A person commenting on that said, "My pencil failed my final exams!"

Facebook has been a blessing to multitudes of people. Facebook is not the problem, it is the way it is being used by some people. It is the same with churches and their teaching. It is not the church or the Bible that deceives people. It is the way some use the church and the Bible as a weapon to deceive folk. For the majority, church is a place of fellowship and Biblical instruction. Others use a church as a place where they can build their religious empire and have power and control over people. Therefore it is not the church itself, but the people using it to achieve their own ends.

You seem to have missed the point I was making about false teachers and their final destruction. Instead you spoke well of Facebook which has caused many people to take their own life. Similarly the gun has its uses but only in the right hands. On a Christian forum it is good to talk of spiritual things and so build people up in the faith rather like a humble pencil in the hand of God.
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[CoreIssue]

Paul Christensen, What he did was neither false or deceptive. he gave a genuine message using a genuine unknown tongue for the congregation. The interpreter was the one who was false and deceptive and most likely working for the church.

And where in the Bible say anyone had to request permission to give a tongues message? It clearly says if no one is there who can interpret the message everyone is just to be quiet and sit down. The one pretending to interpret was the deceiver and liar.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs when one is saved, it is not a separate event and does not require the evidence of tongues. In fact, the Bible clearly says tongues are the least gift of the Holy Spirit. Nor is it everyone given the gift of tongues as the Pentecostal church seeks.

The problem lies the Pentecostal church.

 

[Cooper]

Paul Christensen, What he did was neither false or deceptive. he gave a genuine message using a genuine unknown tongue for the congregation. The interpreter was the one who was false and deceptive and most likely working for the church.

And where in the Bible say anyone had to request permission to give a tongues message? It clearly says if no one is there who can interpret the message everyone is just to be quiet and sit down. The one pretending to interpret was the deceiver and liar.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs when one is saved, it is not a separate event and does not require the evidence of tongues. In fact, the Bible clearly says tongues are the least gift of the Holy Spirit. Nor is it everyone given the gift of tongues as the Pentecostal church seeks.

The problem lies the Pentecostal church.

Speaking as someone who grew up in a Pentecostal Church, (Elim Forsquare), let me say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit need to be sought by the believer, after they accept Christ as their Saviour, sometimes years after following the Lord, when and if the believer seeks them, usually after going through the waters of baptism as they grow in faith.

Personally I would rather speak in my native tongue, I have no other, if and when the Spirit gives utterance, which is not very often. It may only be a single sentence in the middle of a conversation and is a complete surprise to me over which I have no control and was never in my mind to say.
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[Amazed@grace]

I saw the following post elsewhere.
Any comments?


It's been an issue inside the Assemblies of God denomination concerning speaking in tongues. There was a group of younger ministers that sought to "fight" the long-held doctrinal stance that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is always evidenced by speaking with other tongues. Up until like a decade or so ago, I know the Assemblies of God had their big conference and reinstated the position that a Christian must speak with other tongues in order to have received the Holy Ghost.

It's a requirement for their ministers, evangelists, and for anyone they ordain to have experience the baptism with the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking with other tongues. I know a lot of their churches on an individual level have moved away from this position overall. They don't typically place a strong emphasis on the baptism with the Holy Ghost, but tend to align with a more evangelical, semi-charismatic doctrine.

I've heard a lot here recently that the Assemblies of God had "voted out" speaking in tongues. That's where I'm drawing my theory from.

How does a church vote out the speaking in tongues? Imagine if the apostles had presumed to preemptively vote that same thing before it were to occur.

There is a scripture from Paul, I think it is he, who advises unless there are those able to interpret should someone begin speaking in tongues, then that person who feels led toward that inspiration should refrain. Because the intended message would be lost.

I take that to mean the word , tongues , was the early ministry's word for language. People being holy spirit led to spontaneously speak in different languages.
Which I think is why the Apostles were gifted with the blessing of speaking in tongues by holy spirit.

Being able to converse in all languages would allow them to fulfill the great commission assigned them by Jesus.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Luke 8:10 KJV
[10] And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I believe what Paul is trying to say here is when he is speaking in tongues it’s actually the mysteries of God. He’s not referring to unintelligible words, rather words that edify.

Your are avoiding Paul's direct words. He clearly says that when he is speaking in tongues he is praying directly to God. You are deliberately misapplying clear Scripture. "There is none so blind who will not see."

 

[Paul Christensen]

Luke 8:10 KJV
[10] And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I believe what Paul is trying to say here is when he is speaking in tongues it’s actually the mysteries of God. He’s not referring to unintelligible words, rather words that edify.
See those who have the Spirit within hear the things of God.

I think you should give up discussing things you know nothing about. You have also misquoted Luke 8:10. Paul did not write in parables when he penned 1 Corinthians 14. His teaching was totally clear and direct. Furthermore you can't even quote 1 Corinthians 14:2 correctly.
Paul is not "trying" to say anything. He is saying definitely that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God, that no man understands him, he is speaking mysteries in the Spirit. He says in another place that a person who speaks in tongues should speak to him and to God.

To be honest, the only ones who will be deceived by your faulty hermeneutics are those who are just as unknowledgable about the things of the Spirit as you are. Experienced, mature Pentecostals just wouldn't give what you are saying the time of day. They just get on with worshiping the Lord in their own way and reap the blessings of it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You seem to have missed the point I was making about false teachers and their final destruction. Instead you spoke well of Facebook which has caused many people to take their own life. Similarly the gun has its uses but only in the right hands. On a Christian forum it is good to talk of spiritual things and so build people up in the faith rather like a humble pencil in the hand of God.
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What is so different between Facebook and a Christian forum? Nothing, except the latter has a Christian label and the former hasn't. We can choose what we see and receive on Facebook. I just block anything offensive and keep what encourages me. As I said before, it is not Facebook that is the problem, It is some of the people who use it for evil intentions.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul Christensen, What he did was neither false or deceptive. he gave a genuine message using a genuine unknown tongue for the congregation. The interpreter was the one who was false and deceptive and most likely working for the church.

And where in the Bible say anyone had to request permission to give a tongues message? It clearly says if no one is there who can interpret the message everyone is just to be quiet and sit down. The one pretending to interpret was the deceiver and liar.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs when one is saved, it is not a separate event and does not require the evidence of tongues. In fact, the Bible clearly says tongues are the least gift of the Holy Spirit. Nor is it everyone given the gift of tongues as the Pentecostal church seeks.

The problem lies the Pentecostal church.

Oh come on! Do you think I'm a fool or something? A linguist unknown to anyone in the meeting, comes in and gives what sounds like a genuine tongues message, except it isn't because he has come in to give a false message to deceive and trap anyone who interprets into making a fool of himself (in his eyes). And having done that, he goes away and spouts to all and sundry that tongues and interpretation are false, because he "tested" them and found them to fail his test.

I'll bet he didn't disclose his test to the people. If he did, they would have booted his backside all the way down the street! And he would have deserved it. If I was the pastor of that church, I would have made an official complaint to his employer that he brought disrepute on his employer by his unethical act. I would have also written to the organisation that issues practicing certificates to professional linguists and advised them of his unprofessional conduct and would raise a public fuss until they suspended him pending a disciplinary hearing to see if he is fit to continue practicing as a linguist. I would then name and shame him on social media so that everyone would know that he is a liar and a deceiver of innocent, godly people and is not fit to be employed anywhere as a linguist.

The fellow is a total crook and I would have absolutely no respect for him. The people he fooled were much better than him. And you are just as bad for defending him. Why don't you go into a Pentecostal service and do the same and see what they would do? I'll bet you wouldn't have the guts! And that is being kind to you!

 

[Waiting on him]

I think you should give up discussing things you know nothing about. You have also misquoted Luke 8:10. Paul did not write in parables when he penned 1 Corinthians 14. His teaching was totally clear and direct. Furthermore you can't even quote 1 Corinthians 14:2 correctly.
Paul is not "trying" to say anything. He is saying definitely that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God, that no man understands him, he is speaking mysteries in the Spirit. He says in another place that a person who speaks in tongues should speak to him and to God.

To be honest, the only ones who will be deceived by your faulty hermeneutics are those who are just as unknowledgable about the things of the Spirit as you are. Experienced, mature Pentecostals just wouldn't give what you are saying the time of day. They just get on with worshiping the Lord in their own way and reap the blessings of it.

Lol, when Paul would speak to a Christian and they would hear the mysteries of God what or who within them do you think was interpreting within them. Take another look.
Peter suggested some of the things Paul said would be hard to understand.

 

[Waiting on him]

1 Corinthians 14:21

 

[Cooper]

What is so different between Facebook and a Christian forum? Nothing, except the latter has a Christian label and the former hasn't. We can choose what we see and receive on Facebook. I just block anything offensive and keep what encourages me. As I said before, it is not Facebook that is the problem, It is some of the people who use it for evil intentions.

So, let them take a few immature Christians with them on their downward journey.
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[JunChosen]

And so the book of Revelation was written also during dangerous political times, and for the same reason. So any attempt at interpretation for modern times has to be doubtful and speculative.

I don't believe God wrote the Bible for cultural reasons, that is one book for a certain nation and another book yet for another nation. Rather, the Bible was written for mankind in all parts of history as written by Paul in Romans 15:4:

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

As long as Christians do not understand the meaning and purpose of tongues, I'm afraid tongues will NEVER be understood!

For instance, the word "mysteries" in 1 Co. 14:2 is really a synonym for the "Gospel." Hence, when a person receives a revelation (heavenly message) from God in a church setting, he would speak in a form of a tongue and someone close by interprets so that the whole congregation can be edified. And Paul continues to say not to forbid speaking in tongues.

The above is the reason and ONLY purpose why tongues was conceivable BECAUSE the Bible was not yet complete and God had further revelations to give to man, until Revelation 22: 18-19.

Ultimately, speaking in tongues has NO spiritual value other than receiving messages from God in a form of a tongue/heavenly language.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Paul Christensen]

I don't believe God wrote the Bible for cultural reasons, that is one book for a certain nation and another book yet for another nation. Rather, the Bible was written for mankind in all parts of history as written by Paul in Romans 15:4:

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

As long as Christians do not understand the meaning and purpose of tongues, I'm afraid tongues will NEVER be understood!

For instance, the word "mysteries" in 1 Co. 14:2 is really a synonym for the "Gospel." Hence, when a person receives a revelation (heavenly message) from God in a church setting, he would speak in a form of a tongue and someone close by interprets so that the whole congregation can be edified. And Paul continues to say not to forbid speaking in tongues.

The above is the reason and ONLY purpose why tongues was conceivable BECAUSE the Bible was not yet complete and God had further revelations to give to man, until Revelation 22: 18-19.

Ultimately, speaking in tongues has NO spiritual value other than receiving messages from God in a form of a tongue/heavenly language.

To God Be The Glory

What you have said is your personal view, not supported by Scripture, certainly not supported by millions of godly believers who do know the purpose of tongues and experience the clear spiritual value of it for them.

 

[JunChosen]

What you have said is your personal view, not supported by Scripture, certainly not supported by millions of godly believers who do know the purpose of tongues and experience the clear spiritual value of it for them.

And therefore you deny Romans 15:4? That tells me many things about yourself.

Consensus does NOT make a thing right, besides I don't believe you know millions of godly believers who understand the phenomenon of tongues, just as you do not know whether I am a believer or not. Only God knows me intimately! Can you say the same for yourself?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Paul Christensen]

And therefore you deny Romans 15:4? That tells me many things about yourself.

Consensus does NOT make a thing right, besides I don't believe you know millions of godly believers who understand the phenomenon of tongues, just as you do not know whether I am a believer or not. Only God knows me intimately! Can you say the same for yourself?

To God Be The Glory

Romans 15 "We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.” 4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God."

It's always good to quote the whole context, rather than the one random verse. When we look at the context we see that it has nothing at all to do with Spiritual gifts. So making a Scripture say something that it doesn't will not support a premise that someone in the 19th Century thought up out of their own heads and introduced it into their brand of Christian theology.

I say that your view is just that - you own opinion, because you cannot produce one clear and direct Scripture that the way modern Pentecostals pray and speak in tongues is false. Yet there is a whole chapter in 1 Corinthians that gives precise teaching on where and how to use tongues.

Also, in 1 Corinthians 12, "various tongues" are listed as part of the Spiritual gifts provided by the Holy Spirit. The languages may or may not be understandable world languages, but they are not naturally endowed or learned by the speaker. They are supernaturally endowed by the Holy Spirit. If the gifts of the Holy Spirit were just natural gifting Paul would have said so, and the gifts would have been used by anything, Christian or unbeliever.

The same goes for interpretation of tongues. It is not a natural ability to translate known languages. Even an unbeliever without the Holy Spirit can do that. No. It is a supernatural gift given to interpret (not translate) a tongues utterance given by someone speaking an unlearned language. If Paul meant direct translation he would have said so.

My daughter through her studies in psychology told me that when things have been drummed into a child while growing it, it is virtually impossible to convince them otherwise. I think that holds true for believers having religious teaching drummed into them during their spiritually young formative years, makes it impossible to believe anything else. If they had false teaching drummed into them for years on end, then even with faced with clear Scriptural truth, they cannot believe it, because the false teaching has become part of their spiritual "DNA".

For example from the natural world. There are many in the Southern States of the United States who have had it drummed into them from childhood that African Americans are 'sub-human' and are likely to be disposed to criminal behaviour if given the opportunity. There are police officers in those states who believe that, and that is why they can shoot and kill African Americans on the slightest pretext. This is called social and cultural conditioning, and nothing will change their attitude. Most civilised people are disgusted at it, but it is so ingrained in their DNA that they will never change until the day they die.

There are those so ingrained with Cessationism through repeated brainwashing by their mentors, that they cannot believe anything different, and they will continue believing it to the day they die, and not even clear Scripture evidence will alter their view.

You might say the same about Pentecostals, but there is a much sounder Scriptural basis for the use of the gift of tongues, than the accusation that the modern use is false.