Freedom To Sin

[marks]

But just as disobedient children are not in fellowship with their parents until they (parents & children) deal with their disobedience, so it is with God and His children.

They, our parents, chastened us according to what they thought, but God chastens us "for our good". His chastening is effective, afterward come the peaceable fruits of righteousness.

Even if parents act that way or worse, God's ways are higher.

God does not withdraw Himself because of my bad behavior, because my reconciliation is not based on my behavior, whether good or bad. It's based in Jesus, and Jesus never changes.

Maybe I won't be having as good a time in life - chastening is not joyful but is grievous - even in the grief is still joy, because we find our Maker there, and learn to love Him there. As we learn to trust Him even when such things happen that are meant to afflict us.

That God chastens us, that's His personal hand in our lives, active in a very visible way, that's the point! And this in no wise changes His promise, I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.

Even while you are actively sinning? Even when you are later in denial? Even when you start to justify yourself? (these are meant generally) Even before you've confessed and repented?

This comes down to a very black and white point to me. We are reconciled based on Jesus' righteousness, not our own. I don't go around labeling things as heresy, but to me, this is the one thing, to say that we add our own righteousness onto Jesus' righteousness, in order to "stay in God's good graces", or something like that. I'm not meaning to put words in your mouth, just discuss the point.

Our reconciliation is based in Jesus and not me. He removed my sin, and gave me His righteousness. I'm reconciled to God, united to Him by His Spirit, recipient of His promise, I will NEVER leave you, nor forsake you.

In faith I believe these things to be true, I accept that these truths define reality. So that's the way things are. And I never fail to find He is present with me, regardless of any other considerations. Of course, it's the realization of His presence and His love that breaks every chain!

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

Can we truly come boldly in ANY need? At ANY time? We most certainly can!

Yes, we can. But we don't always. After sin we sometimes hesitate to confess it. We may refrain, through a sense of guilt, from reading scripture, off even going to church. While this may not explicitly mean a lot of salvation, I think it certainly can lead to such a loss, because that hesitation... The withdrawal from fellowship and scripture through guilt and shame and maybe embarrassment if a public sin, are the beginnings of unbelief. Those beginnings of unbelief Are the seeds of doubt that God will accept us. They are seeds of doubt in the efficacy of the gospel and God's willingness to forgive. God certainly does give us time. But let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that everyone eventually comes back. Those seeds grow fruit.

Loss of fellowship is NOT loss of salvation,

 

[Enoch111]

God does not withdraw Himself because of my bad behavior, because my reconciliation is not based on my behavior, whether good or bad. It's based in Jesus, and Jesus never changes.

This is totally incorrect. This is NOT a matter of reconciliation (which was settled at the cross). So you are confused about reconciliation and loss of fellowship even though I have shown you the difference.

God's enmity with mankind is over. That is reconciliation based upon the full penalty of sins being paid by Christ. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself".

 

[marks]

But the one who believes is justified by grace through faith, and also becomes a child of God. And the New Birth is irreversible.

I completely agree with you, but it seems to me you are saying that our reconciliation is sometimes not enough.

That if we sin, we become at least a little bit unreconciled, our relationship constricted. I believe our relationship with God is completely restored in Christ, and that trusting this is so enables me to live in it.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Freedom is a spiritual state of being in relationship with God.

What the Thread title states is technically wrong.

God has allowed mankind to freely chose whether or not they will sin against Him.

Understanding the difference so is important.

When people chose to sin, they lose their freedom because they have broken the boundary conditions of their relationship with God.

As Ezekiel tells us in chapter eighteen, if when we realise that we have chosen to sin against God, we repent of that sin of turning away from Him, then he will forgive us and restore us.

Sadly, the manifesting sins that come about by turning away from God are easily recognisable and are easy to repent of, but our primary sin of turning away from God and not keeping His statutes, is more difficult see and understand and consequently rarely repented of by man.

Shalom

 

[Brakelite]

They, our parents, chastened us according to what they thought, but God chastens us "for our good". His chastening is effective, afterward come the peaceable fruits of righteousness.

Even if parents act that way or worse, God's ways are higher.

God does not withdraw Himself because of my bad behavior, because my reconciliation is not based on my behavior, whether good or bad. It's based in Jesus, and Jesus never changes.

Maybe I won't be having as good a time in life - chastening is not joyful but is grievous - even in the grief is still joy, because we find our Maker there, and learn to love Him there. As we learn to trust Him even when such things happen that are meant to afflict us.

That God chastens us, that's His personal hand in our lives, active in a very visible way, that's the point! And this in no wise changes His promise, I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.

Even while you are actively sinning? Even when you are later in denial? Even when you start to justify yourself? (these are meant generally) Even before you've confessed and repented?

This comes down to a very black and white point to me. We are reconciled based on Jesus' righteousness, not our own. I don't go around labeling things as heresy, but to me, this is the one thing, to say that we add our own righteousness onto Jesus' righteousness, in order to "stay in God's good graces", or something like that. I'm not meaning to put words in your mouth, just discuss the point.

Our reconciliation is based in Jesus and not me. He removed my sin, and gave me His righteousness. I'm reconciled to God, united to Him by His Spirit, recipient of His promise, I will NEVER leave you, nor forsake you.

In faith I believe these things to be true, I accept that these truths define reality. So that's the way things are. And I never fail to find He is present with me, regardless of any other considerations. Of course, it's the realization of His presence and His love that breaks every chain!

Much love!

Individual sins... If cherished... Unconfessed... Do lead to chastisement. Do all accept that chastising and humble themselves to correction? Do all believe... Trust... That God does forgive, will forgive, if they come to Him? OSAS is contingent on faith. The just shall live by faith.. most of Israel was kept out of Canaan because of unbelief. That were chastised. They had the law. They had the sanctuary which pointed to Christ. And only those under twenty and Caleb and Joshua entered. Are we really any different? Are the covenants... The promises of God toward us any different in essence... Contingent upon our believing in them... Than toward Israel?

 

[marks]

Yes, we can. But we don't always. After sin we sometimes hesitate to confess it. We may refrain, through a sense of guilt, from reading scripture, off even going to church. While this may not explicitly mean a lot of salvation, I think it certainly can lead to such a loss, because that hesitation... The withdrawal from fellowship and scripture through guilt and shame and maybe embarrassment if a public sin, are the beginnings of unbelief. Those beginnings of unbelief Are the seeds of doubt that God will accept us. They are seeds of doubt in the efficacy of the gospel and God's willingness to forgive. God certainly does give us time. But let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that everyone eventually comes back. Those seeds grow fruit.

And this is my reason for writing.

A little guilt, a little shame, if allowed to stand, work directly against our faith. Our faith is in Christ, and what He did on the cross, and His resurrection, condeming sin in the flesh, and making us alive in the Spirit.

The unbelief is that He has forgiven us, really, truly, completely and forever. This is the doubt that leads us to turn our backs towards God, thinking He's turned His to us. But He does not, and will not.

I can discuss myself, my weaknesses and failings, which are many, with my Father anytime, no matter what, or what state I'm in. He never leaves me, never forsakes me.

As Jesus so often said . . . be it to you according to your faith.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

trusting this

And therein is the key. The relationship... Christ knocking always... Was initiated, and is maintained constantly, by God. But what you said above... It is contingent, dependant upon our faith. Is believing is not guaranteed.

 

[marks]

Do all accept that chastising and humble themselves to correction?

It's written of God's chastening . . . "but He for our good", and, "and afterward, the peaceable fruits of righteousness. God's chastening works.

He really won't abandon us! Not His children, not for anything!

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is totally incorrect. This is NOT a matter of reconciliation (which was settled at the cross). So you are confused about reconciliation and loss of fellowship even though I have shown you the difference.

Pick a Scripture or two that tell us these things, let's look together.

Reconciliation is restoration of relationship. You are asserting that our bad acts break our relationship with God. I would agree that outside of Christ that is true.

"But now having received the reconciliation", Paul writes, talking about that we were reconciled even while God's enemies. And now we are all the more saved by Jesus' life.

It's the fact that we continue in koinonia with God that gives us our anchor, sure and stedfast, piercing through the veil, even Jesus Himself, in koinonia with us, and ready to pull us to that safe harbor He has had in mind the whole time we've been tested/tempted. Even when we don't do so well with it at first, no matter, He will never leave you, nor forsake you. His promise. Not mine. His.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The promises of God toward us any different in essence...

Actually, we have a new covenant based on better promises.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

Actually, we have a new covenant based on better promises.

Much love!

True, but the promises that were insufficient and needed to be replaced weren't God's promises. They were Israel's promises to obey. God didn't ask Israel to promise anything. All He ever asks of us is to believe in His promises to accomplish all the purposes for which they are sent. So shall be the word that goes forth from My mouth.
One major hurdle for the church in being ready for the second coming is the deeply held belief by so many that sin cannot be overcome in this life. The scriptures declare that we receive what we believe. If we do not believe in God's promises to sanctify His people and make them holy, clothing them in the righteousness of Christ, what hope is there for those who this lack such faith? They genuinely believe that they will continue to sin right up to the end. And because that is what they believe, that is what they will do. As you said, be it in accordance to your faith.

 

[Enoch111]

Pick a Scripture or two that tell us these things, let's look together.

Since you wish to maintain your confusion, I will not bother to respond. Read and digest 1 John 1 and 2.

 

[Sabertooth]

Paul wrote to believers,
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked;
for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." Galatians 6:7-8 NKJV

Grace is for our foolishness and ignorance along the way.

 

[Stumpmaster]

What I like talking about is how when we come to understand that there really IS no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, that this unlocks our faith to stand in His grace.

Many who have been fully in Christ Jesus and walking diligently after the Spirit have erred and strayed, falling into some sin or other due to their human weakness and the determined efforts of Satan. Jamie Buckingham writes from experience about this in his book "Where Eagles Soar".

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[charity]

Charity, I appreciate you trying to mediate here, but there are tremendous problems between A@g and I over her faith in Gnostic theology, which lays squarely behind her insistence upon the doctrine of predestined damnation of those not "chosen" from the foundation of the world.

As for the passage above, it flatly denies this theology. Yes they were God's elect, but if this referred to being "chosen" for salvation then there would have been no need to walk "in hope of eternal life," as he was saying. Their salvation would already be assured, and there be no need for walking "in hope" of it.


This passage is more complex, but the context from previous verses was the difference between those who were listening to Him verses those who were not, asking for a direct profession from Him that He was the Messiah of the Jews (John 10:24). Those who had ears to hear knew He had already said as much and believed Him because they were His sheep and were listening to His voice, and because of this they were following Him. And because they were following Him, He was giving them (present tense) eternal life through the words He was speaking.

This is the meaning of the passage, and neither speaks of the predestination of anyone to either Heaven or Hell. This is heretical teaching, and if Amazed@grace wishes to respond she is welcome to, but I am well aware of what she - up to this moment anyway - teaches, and there is no misunderstanding between us whatsoever.

I appreciate your trying to mediate, however.

Hello @Hidden In Him,

Thank you for responding. I am following your thread on Gnosticism as you know, so hopefully will be better equipped to understand your stand as it progresses.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So WHEN WE SIN??? It looks like you only believe in imputed righteousness, not the life-changing real righteousness that God empowers us with.

REal righteousness is that imputed righteousness that is the righteousness of Jesus! Now I am unlearning the old ways and ;learning the new.

there is only one you who deceptively believes that the moment they got saved they ceased sinning from that point on!

BTW, if you look at gods Word- you will find it is that impute4d righteousness that is the life changing righteousness that God empowers us with!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Here are the exact words from my previous post: "No. You are out of fellowship, as John made crystal clear. A child of God remains a child of God."

To be out of fellowship is to not be in communion with God and Christ. That is the meaning of koinonia (which is translated as both communion and fellowship). This does not change the status of a child of God remaining a child of God. This does not mean that salvation is forfeited.

But just as disobedient children are not in fellowship with their parents until they (parents & children) deal with their disobedience, so it is with God and His children.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (Heb 12:5-8)

Then I apologize!

 

[Paul Christensen]

I'm hearing this routinely, that those who teach that we are fully and completely forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future, by the same token preach that we are free to sin "all we want", that "sins don't matter", that we take a light view of sin in some way.

The topic of Gnosticism has come up again. How often have I been called Gnostic? I have no idea. I've heard this for years. But the historical Gnostics were something else altogether.

People bring up the passages which talk about "former sins", as if these sentences were lifted out of their historical place, and were talking about their own lives, some point in each of our lives where we say, "My former sins". We can talk about those.

We can talk about the notion of how a 'creature condemned in sin' is at the same time united by God's Spirit to Himself. Forgiveness must be total, because God is Holy. We can discuss how any incomplete forgiveness has to discount God's holiness.

There is justification, not only declaring us innocent and righteous, but giving birth to us, sharing God's Own nature, righteous and holy. We can talk about that if you want.

What I mostly want to talk about is this idea that believing we are completely and permanently forgiven of all sin past present future somehow releases us into a cesspool of sinning.

I don't see that.

In the first place, well, here's a poll I think I know how everyone will answer.

Do you want to commit sin? Do you wake up in the morning thinking, OH, I hope I can get in some sinning today! Maybe even a little depravity? Anyone?

Or is it more like what Paul said,

Romans 5:18-21 to 6:1-7 KJV
18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Aren't these more what we want?

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What I like talking about is how when we come to understand that there really IS no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, that this unlocks our faith to stand in His grace.

Much love!

The simple answer to your involved post is that Jesus settled the sin question once and for all when He suffered and died on the Cross. We are totally free from the guilt and punishment for sin.

The will of God for us is that we get to know who Jesus really is, and know how much He loves us. He loves us with an unconditional love. It doesn't matter what we try to do to earn it. Whether we struggle with our flesh or whether we think we have overcome our besetting sins, makes no difference to the love Jesus has for us. He doesn't love us any more if we become virtually sinless, and He doesn't love us any less if we are still struggling with the sins of our flesh.

The trouble is with many people is that they have an incomplete knowledge of who Jesus actually is because they have formed an image of Him in their minds that doesn't quite match up with how the Gospels describe Him. Therefore they underestimate His love for them.

When a person knows who Jesus really is, they can rest and immerse themselves in His love, and once that happens, they lose the desire to sin, because sinning breaks fellowship with Him, and that is the last thing they want, so they hate sin and do all they could to avoid it; not because Jesus would love them less for failing or love them more for succeeding, but fellowship with Him is so valuable they don't want to spend even a minute away from it.

Those who think they can continue freely sinning because they are saved by grace, don't really know Jesus at all.

 

[Truther]

I'm hearing this routinely, that those who teach that we are fully and completely forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future, by the same token preach that we are free to sin "all we want", that "sins don't matter", that we take a light view of sin in some way.

The topic of Gnosticism has come up again. How often have I been called Gnostic? I have no idea. I've heard this for years. But the historical Gnostics were something else altogether.

People bring up the passages which talk about "former sins", as if these sentences were lifted out of their historical place, and were talking about their own lives, some point in each of our lives where we say, "My former sins". We can talk about those.

We can talk about the notion of how a 'creature condemned in sin' is at the same time united by God's Spirit to Himself. Forgiveness must be total, because God is Holy. We can discuss how any incomplete forgiveness has to discount God's holiness.

There is justification, not only declaring us innocent and righteous, but giving birth to us, sharing God's Own nature, righteous and holy. We can talk about that if you want.

What I mostly want to talk about is this idea that believing we are completely and permanently forgiven of all sin past present future somehow releases us into a cesspool of sinning.

I don't see that.

In the first place, well, here's a poll I think I know how everyone will answer.

Do you want to commit sin? Do you wake up in the morning thinking, OH, I hope I can get in some sinning today! Maybe even a little depravity? Anyone?

Or is it more like what Paul said,

Romans 5:18-21 to 6:1-7 KJV
18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Aren't these more what we want?

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What I like talking about is how when we come to understand that there really IS no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, that this unlocks our faith to stand in His grace.

Much love!

We are made free from sin not free to sin.