In all due respect..I am aware of and do appreciate the stance of authority taken by the Roman Catholic Church on the issues mentioned above ; but it wasn't my purpose here to discuss the supremacy of one denomination over another in matters of authority. The question here is what do we think of the ordination of Gay clergy..so apologies as I didn't intend to go down the rabbit trail and off topic in my post and won't do so now. My point was to simply answer the question given and say that we can read in scriptures that homosexuality was not, is, or should ever be an acceptable practice and especially not condoned by church leaders, and is something to be dealt with in all of our Christian churches(denominational or not) ..yes, by God-given authority.
What do you think about the ordination of Gay clergy?
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In all due respect..I am aware of and do appreciate the stance of authority taken by the Roman Catholic Church on the issues mentioned above ; but it wasn't my purpose here to discuss the supremacy of one denomination over another in matters of authority. The question here is what do we think of the ordination of Gay clergy..so apologies as I didn't intend to go down the rabbit trail and off topic in my post and won't do so now. My point was to simply answer the question given and say that we can read in scriptures that homosexuality was not, is, or should ever be an acceptable practice and especially not condoned by church leaders, and is something to be dealt with in all of our Christian churches(denominational or not) ..yes, by God-given authority.
St Columcille
New Member
I have talked with several Episcopalians prior to leaving them. Their stance is that it is allowable if it is monogomous. Their use of scripture will undoubtably be full of errors. But how are you to convince them when in their interpretation of Scripture, they think it is allowable under "loving" conditions? What say has anyone here, but a popular vote into the matter with no authority save what they think is proper interpretation of their sole authority of Scripture which even the moral heretics quote from? It may be a rabbit trail to you, but for me it goes to the very heart of the matter of authoritative interpretation. Do you have the ability to present as an Arminian to a Calvinist, or vice versa, that the opposing doctrine is inconsistent with Sacred Scripture? If you cannot do it with that position, what can you do with the moral heretic who is quoting scripture just the same and coming to different conclusions and saying the Spirit is leading them? While you come to dislike the change of gay clergy being allowed to teach homosexuality as acceptable, your question seems to be one of gathering sentimental dislike; if you want to make it authoritative, it must be authoritative to all. As a former Protestant, I found the reason why the Catholics condemned it as a heresy was because it is purely and inherently schismatic. We have in the United States alone over 20,000 denominations. It seems testimony enough that Protestantism errors comes about because someone dislikes something and so they split and start a new denomination... even over petty issues like should the church have air-conditioning or not (when I was a Southern Baptist, I found out the two baptist churches in my town split long ago over the manner when "air-conditioning" was relatively new).
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
The problem is that based on your reasoning, Protestants do not have the authority to make any declaration on any spiritual or moral issues. As a Catholic and former Protestant, I think this is completely unreasonable. We were both Christians before we reconciled with the Catholic Church and both of us were apart of the Body of Christ. I value the opinions of my brothers and sisters in Christ, both in and out of the Catholic Church. I used to dislike it when Mormons would dismiss everything that I believed because I didn't hold their version of the 'priesthood' - I think relying on the idea that only Catholics have the authority to make moral statements works against open dialog.
St Columcille
New Member
As a Catholic, I believe that our doctrine and morals are the most complete. When a Protestant aligns and finds agreement with the Catholic Church's positions, then there is some harmony. I am not stating Protestants do not know Jesus; I am stating that they are incomplete and that Protestantism by its very nature is a personal heresy. Many Protestant denominations don't like to use the word "Creed," but rather words like "affirmation" or "resolution." These affirmations and resolutions change as the denomination changes. For instance, the SBC supported abortion in 1971 and in 1974 only later to reverse it. How resolute was their resolution? It changed from bad to good. It could change back from good to bad. They are riding on the whims of a church democracy and not on the theocracy of God that is established through His Church. This is why there are Protestant denominations electing openly homosexual clergy in the first place, there is no authority but in a majority within each of the 20,000 plus minorities.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Why are Catholics ordaining gay priests? I've moved a lot over the last 12 years and at least 1/3 of the priests in the churches I attended identified as homosexual.
Also, I am not sure you will be able to have any specific discussions with Protestants because every difference in opinion can be dismissed due to a lack of authority.
I just saying....
St Columcille
New Member
The position as stated by Catholic Courage, as it is in agreement with the Church, is that priests are to remain celibate. They are to teach against things like adultery, homosexual acts, and all the vices. Just because a priest identifies with the homosexual, does not mean they are endorsing the lifestyle. It does mean that they personally struggle with same sex attraction. No person is free of temptation, each temptation differs in degree and type. If you can find me a priest in the Catholic Church who teaches openly homosexual acts are acceptable by God, I'll show you a priest who is going to be soon corrected by his bishop or face consequences through a canon trial.
WhiteKnuckle
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Now, I'm curious about some ideas on this one.
I've often wondered why we as Christians seem to be so concerned with homosexuality above all other things.
Is it any different for someone to be attracted to someone of the same sex than it is for a man to be attracted to a woman that isn't his wife?
Seems to me, it's not what your flesh desires that makes a man. Every single one of us desires some form of sin, either alcohol, sex, sometimes maybe punching someones face in, stealing, lying, cheating, porno, whatever you name it.
Why is it that we see homosexuality so much worse than anything anyone else does? Is it because it's a practiced lifestyle? Or is it that we're disgusted by it, where as the other lusts of the flesh we understand because we view it as, "Our nature".
I hear it all the time, "It's not natural for men to be attracted to men",,, However, for a man to lust after another woman that he's not married to, we explain, "I understand, it's natural for you to be attracted to her."
Personally, I think we should be doing something more about child molesting priests than some that have a glint in their eye for other men, yet refuse to act on it.
I've often wondered why we as Christians seem to be so concerned with homosexuality above all other things.
Is it any different for someone to be attracted to someone of the same sex than it is for a man to be attracted to a woman that isn't his wife?
Seems to me, it's not what your flesh desires that makes a man. Every single one of us desires some form of sin, either alcohol, sex, sometimes maybe punching someones face in, stealing, lying, cheating, porno, whatever you name it.
Why is it that we see homosexuality so much worse than anything anyone else does? Is it because it's a practiced lifestyle? Or is it that we're disgusted by it, where as the other lusts of the flesh we understand because we view it as, "Our nature".
I hear it all the time, "It's not natural for men to be attracted to men",,, However, for a man to lust after another woman that he's not married to, we explain, "I understand, it's natural for you to be attracted to her."
Personally, I think we should be doing something more about child molesting priests than some that have a glint in their eye for other men, yet refuse to act on it.
St Columcille
New Member
I think that with homosexuality, we see in the theocracy of Israel that they are put to death. In the New Testament, in Paul's letter to the Romans, we see a progression of evil acts that spirals out of control.
I think it is impossible to keep the stain of sin from every priest, and even from every member of the Church to include the laity. I agree with your assessment that homosexuality is as much a grave sin as adultery. However, I think there are different degrees of temporal punishment. A person who steals a loaf of bread because they are hungry to a person who premeditatively takes another person's life may be both sins, but the severity of each sin as making restitution or satisfaction for their sinfulness has twofold aspects. The first being the spiritual seperation of which Christ takes on to himself and makes atonement; the second is a matter of ramifications. The murderer can be forgiven by Christ, but will still face either a long prison sentence, life, or even the death penalty. Just because Christ saved the man does not mean Christ is taking away the temporal punishments as well. If he had, I am sure there are many on death row wondering why they cannot just reenter society. It is just a reality, two different consequences one paid by Christ the other still felt through our relationship with others.
As far as child molesting by priests, the Church has never taught it was acceptable. I think this is a very complicated matter, and each case has to be reviewed independently. There may be many people who will stand up for the priest who is accused and vouch for their character, and still others who are the accusers who could be victims of the priest's molestation or could be some very sick people who are falsely making claims. Is it possible that some of the accused are innocent? Is it possible that many of the accused are guilty? This is a matter for the criminal courts to investigate and pronounce judgement. Canon law is as a process slower because it wants to get at the truth and its punishments are only related to the Church. A bishop is not a policeman who goes about with a gun, pepper spray, handcuffs, and other equipment as an enforcer. The issue is therefore in the hands of the civil government's handling. The justice system is imperfect and there are many repeat criminals who get off easy, there are innocent people who have spent 20 plus years in prison. God is the great judge, and all will be answerable to him on the last day. To me the question rests in the teaching authority of the Church. Everything else is either bad Catholics or innocent Catholics getting a bad rap.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
People love to judge others for sins they are not tempted by. Homosexuality is perfect because if you are not gay you are not tempted to be gay.
-- "above all other things." What a silly statement. Let me rephrase that: That is an unsupportable opinion bordering on ridculous.
Someone here started a thread on this topic - just as they do on several different topics - and people here comment on it.
This topic doesn't have near the number of posts that many other non-homosexuality threads have on this board.
I don't know a single solitary Christian that is concerned "with homosexuality above all other things."
The only time I ever get in a conversation about homosexuality (outside this board or occasionally at church) is when I am approached by a homosexual or a homosexual advocate who demands to know why I as a Christian will not validate their lifestyle.
And no, I am not:
- holding a sign about homosexuality
- wearing a tshirt that mentions homsexuality
- handing out literature that pertains to homosexuality
- speaking into a bullhorn or leading a discussion about homosexuality
- standing at a gay rights rally waving my Bible and singing hymns
- giving the evil eye to a same sex couple holding hands while they walk by me on the street
- walking up to them and screaming "Be Gone Demon!" when they are sitting together playing tonsil hockey at the mall.
The simple fact is - as it has been mentioned in other threads pertaining to this topic in the past - God is hurt by lying, adultery, theft, assault, murder, etc. just as much as he is by homosexuality.
He loves the person with His whole heart, but he can't abide by the sin.
If a pastor or leader in the church is lying to the congregation, cheating on his wife, stealing funds at work, punching out his neighbor...or in a homosexual relationship...that person either needs to repent (which means to change the way you think about it and turn away from it), or find a different occupation.
This topic mostly comes up because homosexuals, non-Christians, and Christians either ignorant of the scriptures or a with a very liberal slant want to (in many cases demand to) know why we have the nerve to say God has an issue with homosexuality.
It is also brought to the forefront because misguided churches are in the news for ordaining openly gay pastors in a "committed" relation with another homosexual.
The other difference - and this is ignored by most - is that unlike drug dealers, adulterers, murderers, tax cheats, etc. homosexuals are the only group that is actively demanding that their practices - sinful in the eyes of God - be validated by Christians and other Americans.
i thought it was interesting that you asked the question "What are the right requirements to be ordained?"
I wonder if you have also asked the question "WHO determines what those requirements are?" The church really has no say in it. God has already stated the rules and it is he alone who has the right to decide. The church should merely be following the directions given from the Apostles as they are the ones who were given authority to teach.
Here is the direction given by the Apostles as to the requirements:
1Timothy 3:1-10 "...If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) 6 not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil..."
Titus 1:7-9 "For an overseer must be free from accusation as God’s steward, not self-willed, not prone to wrath, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, not greedy of dishonest gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, sound in mind, righteous, loyal, self-controlled, 9 holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his [art of] teaching, that he may be able both to exhort by the teaching that is healthful and to reprove those who contradict."
there is nothing in there about homosexuality, however, could someone who is supposed to be teaching Gods word honestly, live contrary to its clear direction with regard to acceptable sexual behavior? I dont think so.
Tkinnie
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Homosexuality is a sin condtion (iniquity) its no different than shacking up, or being involved in some other sin. Sin is sin. If we are sinning in one sense, then how can we put down another. God can save anyone who chooses to accept christ. Now if homosexual groups are trying to justify there actions by forming a clergy then thats sin. You cant be gay and accept it, its unnatrual so do soemthing about it. Go to god. Confess. Ask him why he made you this way, shun evil, run from sin. Accept Christ.
It comes down to this:
Any area in your life that God considers sin must be addressed before a person should be considered for, or consider themselves for a position of leadership/authority/guidance in the church.
Any area in your life that God considers sin must be addressed before a person should be considered for, or consider themselves for a position of leadership/authority/guidance in the church.
I would not sit in a church that ordained gays in any way! No wonder 'Christianity' is a mess. Gays are not Christians.
No evidence that they were 'made' that way. It's a lifestyle choice. Where one decides to put their 'privates' always involves a choice. The idea that they were made that way is a theory from evolutionists and those who try to drum up support for what's unnatural.
And the idea that "sin is sin", meaning all sin is the same, is not true. God showed that difference early when He gave various punishments depending on the TYPE of sin.
Even today, some sin is unto death, with other sins landing a transgressor in jail for a period of time. We shouldn't forget to understand sin according to what truly wicked people do and how the laws are in place to handle their sin. And their fate should serve as examples for us to not do it.
-- I am not sure I agree with you on this. I have known a number of homosexuals, including my nephew whom I love very much, who have told me that they felt their attraction to someone of the same sex very early in life. Elementary school/pre-Jr. High, for sure.
That certainly doesn't sound like a "lifestyle" choice in those cases.
-HOWEVER-
I DO believe that some end up living the lifestyle because in times of confusion or hardship, homosexuals have been friendly, open and supportive and for the first time many actually feel welcome and accepted for who they are. They then think, "Wow, I am accepted and I am actually feeling cared for. This MUST be what is right for me."
Many realize over time, though, that the homosexual lifestyle does not actually address the deep issues they may have and in some cases actually make it worse.
- The point may have been that any sin that puts a barrier between you and God will lead to your eternal damnation if it is not addressed.
In this case, murder, theft, assault, dishonesty, neglect, abuse, sexual perversion, love of self, ALL lead to the SAME destruction.
God provided a list of different sins that brought on the destruction of Sodom. Love of self and gluttony ranked right up there with homosexual behavior.
-- I would be cautious in comparing God's justice standards to man's.
Especially with the wide latitude a judge has in sentencing or freeing.
One judge will sentence someone to jail for a first offense.
Another judge will give multiple chances for the person to reform themselves.
Same imperfection with human jurors. The Casey Anthony case is a perfect example.
The jurors said they didn't vote 'not guilty' because they were sure the mom was innocent.
They said they voted that way because the prosecution failed to provide them enough evidence to confirm she was guilty. In after-trial interviews a number said they felt she may be guilty but had to obey the guidelines.
So she will shortly be free to walk the street. But if she did do it, man's justice won't keep God from applying His own.
Whether gays choose or not is irrelevant. The Scriptures clearly say they will not inherit God's Kingdom.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Good point. And while gays are in opposition to God's law continually, even militantly, a thief is not opposed when it is protecting him. He will even call the police to uphold God's law if he is being robbed.
