What do you think about the ordination of Gay clergy?

[Arnie Manitoba]

If I am a murderer who continues to murder .... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I am a thief who continues to steal .... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I am an adulterer who continues to sleep around .... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I am a liar who continues to lie ... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I was a clever stratigist who wanted to dismantle the historical Christian institutions , then yes I would implement all of the above. But I would start small. I would start by bringing Homosexuals into the clergy and make it an acceptable practice.

Deception and conditioning of people is easy , providing you do it one notch at a time.

Do not be deceived my friends. You are being conditioned. Thanks.

 

[Foreigner]

You have hit on a point that will be a greater crisis for the Christian community in the future.

People will "become Christians" but then claim that Christians are oppressive, judgmental, hateful, etc. etc. etc. just because they will not sactions the very sin in their lives that Jesus teaches will eventually lead to their condemnation.

Combine that with denominations today that have already caved and are allowing things such as non-celibate gays to be pastors and church leaders and you will see that Christianity is rotting itself from the inside outward.

 

[aspen]

If I am a murderer who continues to murder .... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I am a thief who continues to steal .... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I am an adulterer who continues to sleep around .... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I am a liar who continues to lie ... should I be ordained into the clergy ?

If I was a clever stratigist who wanted to dismantle the historical Christian institutions , then yes I would implement all of the above. But I would start small. I would start by bringing Homosexuals into the clergy and make it an acceptable practice.

Deception and conditioning of people is easy , providing you do it one notch at a time.

Do not be deceived my friends. You are being conditioned. Thanks.

How about if the candidate is arrogant? Churches ordain arrogant clergy all the time.

 

[Foreigner]

How about if the candidate is arrogant? Churches ordain arrogant clergy all the time.

- Arrogance is often in the eye of the beholder. Murder, homosexuality, theft, adultery, sex outside of marraige is not.

Assuming someone is arrogant because they rub you the wrong way does not give you insight into their heart and thus does not negate their right to ordination like being a criminal or sexual deviant would.

Common Sense 101.

 

[Groundzero]

I recently wrote a blog post on the Church of Scotland's current assembly; one major issue they're debating is whether homosexuals can be ordained.

You can read it @ http://deanroberts.n...ate-gay-clergy/

What do you think? Should factors such as practicing homosexuals be considered? Or just the mental side of being homosexual?

Would love to know your views, especially in relation to the blog post!

My views on the blog post are this: "I can't believe a Christian can make so many excuses for blatant sin." Whether homosexuality is a sin is not a conviction, it is a law that God has set. Unlike music and clothing where there are boundaries within which we can move, there are no boundaries for homosexuality. Homosexuality is wrong because God said so. Unless of course the person doesn't believe in God. Then anything is fine, including murder! This is what Scripture says about homosexuals: Rom_1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Homosexuals, despite what they say, are unnatural. No other created thing on earth does what they do. I think that homosexuality is much more aweful than a womaniser because while womanisers have unchecked lusts, homosexuals have an UNNATURAL lust. God finds that absolutely revolting. He makes it clear that he doesn't even like it when people cross-dress! Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Homosexuality is not sound. 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
If a homosexual came up to me and said, "Does the Bible say I'll go to hell?" I'd look him square in the eye and say, "Yes, it does." I'm not the one who said it, God said it. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Homosexuality fits into the whoremongers category. it also fits into abominable. Homosexuality is an abomination before the Lord. Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. The penalty for homosexuality was death! i think God considers it pretty seriously!
Perhaps the most obvious verse is this one: 1Co_6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, This verse is not referring to heaven. It is referring to the kingdom that Jesus established on earth. You can't be a part of it if you are a homosexual! I don't care if every "Christian' in the world deems a homosexual fit to be my pastor, I don't consider him to be my pastor. i don't even consider him as belonging to the same kingdom as me.
The good news is this:1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Through Jesus, those who have sinned, and we all have, can be washed and cleansed from the sins of what we have done.Glory be to Jesus, the one who was and is and is to come.
Btw, I do know people who are homosexuals. i hold nothing against them personally. i do hate their sin.

 

[FHII]

Homosexuals are sinners. That's the bottom line. But if you break any point of the law you are also a sinner. Should someone who eats shrimp be ordained?

 

[Duckybill]

Homosexuals are sinners. That's the bottom line. But if you break any point of the law you are also a sinner. Should someone who eats shrimp be ordained?

There are no dietary restrictions in the NT. Homosexuals are going to Hell if they don't repent. Not the same.

 

[FHII]

There are no dietary restrictions in the NT. Homosexuals are going to Hell if they don't repent. Not the same.

Well, see.... You are one of the members of the church of James.... Works plus faith.

 

[Duckybill]

Well, see.... You are one of the members of the church of James.... Works plus faith.

How do you figure that?

 

[FHII]

How do you figure that?

By what you said. Homosexuality is a sin of the flesh. Abstaining from it is a work. It's a work of the flesh. Grace comes by faith not by works. Thus, if you believe that any work of the flesh, it's not faith and it won't grant you grace. Faith plus works was James' message. You believe that by your own words, thus you are a part of James' church.


Seriously, it's not that difficult to understand.

 

[Duckybill]

By what you said. Homosexuality is a sin of the flesh. Abstaining from it is a work. It's a work of the flesh. Grace comes by faith not by works. Thus, if you believe that any work of the flesh, it's not faith and it won't grant you grace. Faith plus works was James' message. You believe that by your own words, thus you are a part of James' church.

Seriously, it's not that difficult to understand.

Why would God give us so much info about obeying Him if we don't have to?

 

[aspen]

- Arrogance is often in the eye of the beholder. Murder, homosexuality, theft, adultery, sex outside of marraige is not.

Assuming someone is arrogant because they rub you the wrong way does not give you insight into their heart and thus does not negate their right to ordination like being a criminal or sexual deviant would.

Common Sense 101.

So arrogance is not a sin? If it is in the eye of the beholder it must be subjective and therefore simply the perception of the person who recognizes the behavior, right? Yet, pride is the root of all sin - does that mean that our pride is just in the eye of the beholder?

Seems to me that Adam and Eve's sin was more than simply God's perception - or else He overreacted a bit.........

Why are you excusing the sin of Pride/arrogance in our clergy, but condemning sexual sin?

 

[lawrance]

Homosexuals are sinners. That's the bottom line. But if you break any point of the law you are also a sinner. Should someone who eats shrimp be ordained?

I think Jesus was on about was it's not what you eat that defiles you. shrimp is fine to eat in the NT but not in the OT because Jesus pointed it out what does.

 

[lawrance]

So arrogance is not a sin? If it is in the eye of the beholder it must be subjective and therefore simply the perception of the person who recognizes the behavior, right? Yet, pride is the root of all sin - does that mean that our pride is just in the eye of the beholder?

Seems to me that Adam and Eve's sin was more than simply God's perception - or else He overreacted a bit.........

Why are you excusing the sin of Pride/arrogance in our clergy, but condemning sexual sin?

Foreigner never implied it was not a sin, but that it's only that someone could perceive something as being arrogance and like you just take it in totaly the wrong way.
Any road that's the way i seen it as.

 

[Foreigner]

So arrogance is not a sin? If it is in the eye of the beholder it must be subjective and therefore simply the perception of the person who recognizes the behavior, right?

-- Aspen, sometimes you move directly to the ridiculous and I can't help but laugh outloud.

I never once said arrogance wasn't a sin. (But of course you know that.) If Pride "goeth before a fall," how could it NOT be a sin?

What I DID say was that just because someone thinks another person is arrogant, that doesn't automatically mean that they are.
They have no way of knowing what is in their heart and it could just be the way a person comes across.

Whereas, if someone practicies homosexuality, murder, theft, assault, infidelity, sexual promiscuity, etc......well, it is kind of hard to get that one wrong.

Aspen, I find you incredibly pompous and arrogant, but I bet you would disagree with me. Does my opinion automatically mean that you are?

If we did a poll here and 20 of 25 responders said that you were arrogant would that mean you are?
If the same 20 of 25 said you weren't, would that automatically make it true?

Please get a grip lol.

"Why are you excusing the sin of Pride/arrogance in our clergy, but condemning sexual sin?" - Aspen

-- Being intentionally obtuse to try to play "gotcha" is getting to be a habit with you.




.

 

[veteran]

By what you said. Homosexuality is a sin of the flesh. Abstaining from it is a work. It's a work of the flesh. Grace comes by faith not by works. Thus, if you believe that any work of the flesh, it's not faith and it won't grant you grace. Faith plus works was James' message. You believe that by your own words, thus you are a part of James' church.


Seriously, it's not that difficult to understand.

So Apostle Paul didn't really mean what he said here?...

Gal 5:18-21
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(KJV)


Eph 5:2-17
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given Himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Paul is speaking to Christians at the Church of Ephesus AFTER they had believed on Jesus.


4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Once again, Paul is giving that warning to believers on Christ Jesus, those who had already come to Christ and were in His Church. He was not speaking to those who hadn't received Christ yet. The preaching that we can now go out and do those things like we have some special license to sin and still be saved are the "vain words" Paul speaks of. It's because God's wrath is coming upon the "children of disobedience" in those things.


8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, 'Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.'
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
(KJV)

After having believed on Christ Jesus, we are to LEARN what His Will for us is. That involves obedience to Him and His commandments. Thus Paul is right here including what our Lord Jesus commanded for His servants, preaching this to Gentiles.

But can a believer who falls away to do those things still be saved? Yes, IF they repent to Christ and make a change, returning back to Him in faith and truth. Yet Paul was no fool about the ability of Christian brethren to fall to those works, even after having accepted Christ Jesus, and he gave that Message specifically as a WARNING to all believers on Jesus Christ.

Paul's Message is not the mega-church's false OSAS ideas, where false ministers basically turn Christ's Church into a huge party house excluding the many warnings Paul gave us about falling away from Christ.

 

[Duckybill]

By what you said. Homosexuality is a sin of the flesh. Abstaining from it is a work.

Abstaining from sin is a work? That's quite a STRETCH, don't you think?

 

[veteran]

Abstaining from sin is a work? That's quite a STRETCH, don't you think?

Gotta agree with you on that, for even the ACT of repentance in accepting Christ Jesus and being baptized in Him are works that we must actually 'do' by choice. They don't occur automatically. We must first put forth the effort ourselves.

But I suppose there will be Universalists that will say vain things that Christ's Blood shed on the cross 'automatically' saved everybody, whether they confessed or not.

 

[FHII]

Scripture already makes statements about sex outside of marriage and alcohol abuse and lying, etc. Should people that lie be in the ordained ministry? Or abuse alcohol? Or steal or ??? I think sin is sin. How about people that teach false doctrine? I think they will cause more people to go to hell and are more dangerous than gays.

Gotta amen that, Tomwebster.

 

[aspen]

All I am trying to do is point out that sin is sin. I think some Christians forget that - it is nice to see that FHII and Tom recognize this point. So Foreigner - I would hope that people would reserve judgment of other people's charcter until the met them in real life - especially before hiring them to be a minister. I am imterested in the fact that you view me as arrogant - what constitutes arrogance in your mind?