Can you tell the difference

Can you tell the difference in the two scriptures? Look close.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
NKJV

Ephesians 4:32
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
NKJV

RichardBurger said:

Can you tell the difference in the two scriptures? Look close.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
NKJV

Ephesians 4:32
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
NKJV

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I suppose those that come across as Bible Gurus can't see any difference so won't respond.

In the first verse Jesus is teaching the Law of Moses and He means exactly what He says. He taught it because He and the Jews were under the law.

In the second, Paul is teaching GRACE. It is not law that must be served. Notice the words that say "even as God in Christ forgave you." The words state a past tense event. God has already forgiven you so shouldn't you forgive others. He is not telling us a commandment that has to be observed.

veteran said:

There's a whole lot more Bible left to quote than just those two verses. Pulling a couple of verses out of The Bible is something that men's doctrines do all the time. Everybody has seen that done today.


Luke 17:3-4
3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
(KJV)

Matt 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
(KJV)

Rev 2:4-5
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(KJV)

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(KJV)

Rev 2:21-23
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He Which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
(KJV)

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(KJV)

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Just can't stay with the verses in the OP can you. You wish to go all over the Bible and post other verses that have nothing to do with the idea in the OP.

You have to come down on one or the other. These verses can't both be right. Law and grace do not mix.

Tell me, are you saved under grace or law? You can't have it both ways

veteran said:

Can't you stick with your own subject?

You keep using the fallacy that I trust in God's law for Salvation, which is bearing false witness on your part. You've never read anywhere in my writings where I said such a thing. I've noticed you've made that same false accusation to others on the forum that never claimed Christ's Salvation is by following the law. That's a major sign that you've lost your focus altogether.

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All you did was evaded the question.

Pegg said:

but Paul was speaking to christians who had repented of their sins and put their faith in Christ. Jesus was speaking to jews under law as you correctly stated.

But in the case of Pauls words, he was not speaking to jews under law, nor was he speaking to unbelievers. So those christians whom he was addressing had been forgiven ONLY because they had repented of their sins and were putting their faith inChrist.


If you think that God has simply forgiven everyone, then you'd be mistaken. He forgives everyone who puts faith in his son and repents of their sins.

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The scripture did not say that. Why do you add it to them? According to the scriptures Jesus' shed blood pays for ALL the sins of the world but only if a person believes it does.

Paul tells us how to be saved.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV

There is nothing is the above about repenting in a ritual. However it is certainly true that a person has to know, in their heart, that they are sinful and need Jesus' shed blood to cover their sins. True repentance is a constant attitude of the heart knowing that one is sinful.

veteran said:

It's my hope that you come out of the 'drunken in the night' state men's doctrines have put you in. But it's your choice.

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If you didn't have me to put down you would just do it to someone else so I will not take this personally.

veteran said:

I'm not trying to put you down; I'm trying to get you to open your eyes and leave off men's traditions.

You still haven't explained why our Lord Jesus told these believers to 'repent'...

Rev 2:1-5
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith He That holdeth the seven stars in His right hand, Who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for My name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(KJV)

Rev 3:1-3
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He That hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(KJV)

That's not to mention why our Lord Jesus included asking forgiveness of our sins in The Lord's Prayer which He gave us.

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You are so foolish. The Lords prayer is an example that was given to the Jews who were under the law of Moses and were expecting God to set up a kingdom of the Jews. Since you think it is for you then perhaps you think you forgive others as you want God to forgive you, --- Do you forgive others all their sins against you? I seriously doubt that any man/woman can say they do that with a straight face.

Pegg said:

you are kidding, right?

Romans is a letter written by Paul to the congregations located in Rome. Its not an open letter addressing the world of mankind. Paul was speaking to Christians who had repented, who had changed their ways, who had accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. People in the world have not done that so they are not entitled to recieve of Gods grace. Isnt that the reason why Christians speak to people in the world and encourage them to become Christians?




its more then just belief.

The demons believe do they not? Judas believed. Apostates believed.

Believing does not mean one is automatically saved. If it did, then there would be no need for christianity to even exist.

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I don't kid around wioth the work of God.

There is nothing in the scriptures given that said they changed their sinful ways. Those are your added words.

If you are saying that the Christians encourage others to be sinless then I can agree that that is what they teach and all the time they are just as sinful. They are supposed to show the world that their sins of the flesh can not condemn those that place their faith in Jesus' work on the cross. They are supposed to teach God's grace in this age of God's grace, NOT LAW.

According to the scriptures it is "not more than that." Do you not understand that repentance is not an act of man that is performed at certain times when you feel ilke it. It is continuiously acknowledging (24/7), to God, that the person is sinful in the flesh and needs His work on the cross to save and keep them. A person won't do that unless they place their faith in Jesus. -- But, it seems that many in religion today are so self righteous that all they can see is the sins of otthers.

Even though I said this before you still believe, in your mind, that I am saying we don't have to repent. Are you blind?

In the OP one verse is under law and the other under grace but somehow I don't think many can tell the difference.

Old: In the first verse Jesus is teaching the Law of Moses and He means exactly what He says. He taught it because He and the Jews were under the law.

In the second, Paul is teaching GRACE. It is not law that must be served. Notice the words that say "even as God in Christ forgave you." The words state a past tense event. God has already forgiven you so shouldn't you forgive others. He is not telling us a commandment that has to be observed.

veteran said:

So when Christ's Apostles asked Him to teach them how to pray, and He gave what's called The Lord's Prayer, that was for only Jews? Do you mean you refuse to say The Lord's Prayer because it includes the words of asking forgiveness of sins?

Why would Apostle Paul preach about taking Communion with Christ to Gentiles, since Christ commanded that for His Apostles per The Gospel Books?

Why wouldn't you think that I forgive those who sin against me? And you bettcha I forgive others just as I want God to forgive my sins! But it's also important to me that God forgive 'their' sins too. Neither does being able to forgive others mean allowing them to run over us.

I genuinely feel sorry for those who have a problem forgiving others. Not being able to do that only builds up hatred within one's own self.

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Who was Jesus talking to? Was it to His Jewish Apostles? Then why do you think it is a prayer for the Gentiles to pray?

In the above you state you forgive others, is that all others and all their sins against you. You say it is and I think IMHO that is verging on being self righteous. Can you say, to God, that you always forgive the sins of others. If you can then you are aperfect man and no longer need any forgiveness.

veteran said:

I'm starting to think that you got inward issues going on brother; could be from a lack of forgiving others maybe?

It's not difficult to forgive others, even one's enemies, but it does require having come to understanding in God's Word. But that doesn't always mean forgetting. That's the hard part, trying to forget also. This is not about some self-righteous kind of thing.

Matt 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(KJV)

I've noticed how some have a difficult time with forgiving others. They will harbor a grudge for years. That can lead to bad things, even trying to cut themselves off from other people altogether.

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Will you never cease blaming others for the same thing you do?

You can think what you wish about me and I am sure you will. But that does not make it true.

You didn't answer my question and I am sure you don't wish to. But can you say, to God, that you always forgive the sins of others. If you can then you are a perfect man and no longer need any forgiveness.

Your reply has nothing new so I see no need to say more.