Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I do think that the Incarnation of the Son of God is Scriptural: the Lord Jesus is a real man; John 1.14; 1 Timothy 3.16; Colossians 2.9, etc.
Who is God's God and Father? John 20:17, Romans 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, 2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:17, 1 Pet 1:3, Rev 1:6, Rev 3:12. All say Jesus had a God and a Father. Who would that be?
It is interesting indeed. Besides Plato's belief in god-men, I was thinking of the so-called immortal soul. The same lie the serpent used to deceive Eve in Gen 3:4, in direct contradiction to God's declaration in Gen 2:17. It's a favorite idea used in the funeral of a baby when it is said, "God took little Johnie because He wanted another flower in heaven." So they think God murdered the little tyke? Yikes! Better stop and think about that. Plato would certainly agree, but the church?
Well, yes, I/we are/were certainly dead in trespasses and sins, but the fact is the Jewish leaders led the way for Jesus' crucifixion and it was the people who went along and demanded the release of Barabbas instead of Jesus. I, but for the grace of God, may well have gone right along with the crowd. But that's not the point. The question is to whom did God give the scriptures and it wasn't Plato.You mean like the ancient Jews who wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy when He said what He said in John 8:58?
Oh, but I guess you might say they were "bad Jews," right?
.................................................................
Great Question: Scripturally, serving The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Is serving God!:
John 20:17, Romans 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, 2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:17, 1 Pet 1:3, Rev 1:6, Rev 3:12. All say Jesus had a God and a Father. Who would that be? Are Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, 1 TIm 2:5, John 4:29, John 8:40 not crystal clear in calling Jesus a man?
Well I don't have to; there are several ~ many, actually, that I can quote right off the top of my head.
I know exactly what you "think of John 1:1 and John 8:58, so I'll not mention them... Well, I just did, didn't I? Anyway, beyond that, in His seven great "I AM" statements, He does just that. But even beyond that, Rich, seeing is believing: Jesus did all the things, many times over, that only God can do (forgiving sins, controlling the elements, knowing people's hearts, commanding spirits... the list goes on and on. And, He called Himself what the Father called Himself several times, notably that He is the good shepherd (John 10:11; one of the seven aforementioned "I AM" statements), directly referring to Psalm 23, where David says the same of the LORD. And again, regardless what you "think," regarding John 8:58, where He assigns the name of God to Himself ~ yes, I know very well you disagree, but it is what it is ~ the Jews He was speaking to knew exactly what He was saying about Himself, and that's why they were going to stone him.Yes, the Father did not humble Himself and take the form of man as Jesus did. We agree on that, so whatever point you think you're making here is moot.
The Father, who was never man, cannot, I agree. But the son, who took on human flesh, could then be tempted in every way we are. But only He, the Son, Jesus, could perfectly resist temptation and remain sinless, as we know He did.
In His human state He could, and was. But because He was (is) God, he could resist perfectly, and did.
LOL!
The Father, of course, as I'm sure you agree; this is His high priestly prayer. But Rich, please don't stop there (as Jehovah's Witnesses are wont to do). Read at least through 17:5... "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
Nope.
You do realize, Rich, that the prophets pre-dated Plato, right? As for capitalization, there is no capitalization in the Greek. But in English there is capitalization, and the proper translation of the original Greek to English demands it. Yes, you disagree. That's unfortunate.
Do you not believe God's "declaration" (warning) to Adam and Eve in that verse (Genesis 2:17)? Do you not believe they died that very day, just as God said they would? If not, which of us is falling to Satan's deception (as Eve did)? Or... gasp... calling God a liar?
LOL! Right. Agree. The scriptures that were written before Plato came to be, right?
You're avoiding the point I was making, though I'm sure you caught it full well.
Agreed. Plato got most of His stuff from the scriptures. So your belief that most of orthodox Christianity was taken from Plato is patently false and opposite history itself.
Nobody ignores anything. See above.
Much the same to you. Grace and peace to you!
Well, right out of the gate you are inserting a foundational and critical tenet of the trinity that simply is not in the scriptures. It comes from outside the scriptures, namely Babylonian, Egyptian, and other Pagan religions. They have god-men, but nothing in the scriptures about that.John 20:17, Romans 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, 2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:17, 1 Pet 1:3, Rev 1:6, Rev 3:12. All say Jesus had a God and a Father. Who would that be? Are Rom 5:15, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, 1 TIm 2:5, John 4:29, John 8:40 not crystal clear in calling Jesus a man?
Every single one is referring to Jesus in His human state, and that we, as mere humans, are to be just like Him (and one great day we will be). Hey, a rhetorical question for you: is Jesus ~ the King of kings and Lord of lords ~ the Father's King and/or Lord?
Such is your opinion. You are welcome to it. I mean, well, as if it is up to me to entitle you to your opinion, which, or course, it is not...
But yes, the triune Jehovah is all through the Scriptures. But the Watchtower Society, which came to be in the Enlightenment, "re-engineered" Scripture (around 1830) and created an elaborate narrative to support it, and so many have since so unfortunately bought into it. Even despite this fact, though... well, read on:Right, well "gods" and "lords," sure. And yes, there is only one YHVH, and He consists of three Persons, two of which are the Father and the Lord (the other is the Helper). In that verse... well, let me quote it, and then offer a brief comment. And I think it's appropriate here to include verse 5:
No need.
It does. He had the same glory as the Father with the Father before anything was created.
LOL! It does. See above.
It means, David, that He existed before anything was created ~ with the Father ~ which is exactly what John said in John 1:1.
Absolutely true, but herein is the problem: your view of this sending forth is way, way, too low. What Jesus says in the same breath in 17:5 is very clear also, that He possessed the same glory as the Father with the Father before anything was created. And as we know (or should know), God says:
Well no, you can't make that statement with any credibility at all. And, even if that was the case with some translators is of no consequence, really, as it is what it is.
You are assuming that if Jesus is not God then God must have given up His glory and given it to Jesus, which is obviously not correct! Your logic is flawed. God has glory, Jesus has glory, angels have glory, men have glory - even the sun, moon and stars have glory (1 Corinthians 15:41). Their glory is their own and different - the glory of angels is different from the glory of God, the Glory of Jesus is different from the glory of God. Jesus said:
I'm not assuming that at all. God giving up His glory? Perish the thought.
So since you misrepresent my logic ~ what I have said ~ your statement here is dead in the water... non sequitur.
Well yes, but we ~ and all God's creation, glory in God, all three Persons of Him.
Really, as creatures, we are a reflection of His glory, and still waiting to be glorified, but, thanks be to God, we will be, upon Jesus's return and the Judgment.Stop right there; you cannot give something someone always had. Again, the Father glorifying Jesus at the transfiguration is not the same as Jesus's possession of the same glory as the Father from all eternity. They are closely related, but the former takes place in Jesus's lifetime as man, and the latter is true in Jesus's position as the second Person of the Godhead. Now, Jesus did "give up" His glory for a time ~ which means not that He absolved Himself of it, but laid it aside for a time to accomplish a purpose, which He finally did in His death on the cross. This is what Paul says in Philippians 2.
This is non sequitur.
What is, is. Jesus is the second Person of the Godhead.
Um... yes, I did. We can clearly see from John 17:5 that Jesus possessed the same glory as the Father with the Father from all eternity.
He was terribly mistaken. And if your "point" is the same as his, then... well, see above.
Well, it does, but also that He possessed, again, the same glory as the Father with the Father.
LOL! There is only one eternity, David. We can divide it into eternity past and eternity future, and both the Father and Jesus (along with the Spirit) exist in and throughout both.
Okay, I'll allow that, but it also does nothing to disprove it.
I'll allow this, too, but we can't discount Hebrews 13:8, that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And to not understand that as forever past to forever future ~ eternity past to eternity future ~ is just pure obstinance.
All this means is that we think the very same of each other in this respect. But that takes us back to what I said about pure obstinance above immediately above.
