A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

Appeal to Ignorance. You are using what Jesus did NOT say - the absence of evidence as evidence.

“I am” is not an identification of deity nor what God actually said to Moses. That you have to refer to such weak references to violate the Sh’ma, 1C and explicit text that only the Father is God, shows how weak the support is for the man-is-god thesis.

So, you thunk Jesus' sayings are "weak references" which is a foolish thing for you to think. No Christian calls the Christ's sayings "weak references"!

You do not receive Jesus' sayings of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20) - both quoted below and referred to, by you, as "weak references"!

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so such people have no gospel at all.

Since you do not receive Jesus' sayings of "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20), both quoted above which you referred to as "weak references", then you reject Jesus' declaration that He is YHWH God; therefore, Jesus' following sayings apply to you:

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

And "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24), yet you do not believe that Jesus is I AM before Abraham was born!

 

[Kermos]

From Post 1280 (and repeated by him at 1440 above) by Kermos above:
All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)
......................................................
From my reply at #1288:

How do the KJV; RSV; NIV; NASB; NRSV; ESV; JB; etc. translate those verses?

"I Will Be"

Genesis 26:3 - Bible Gateway

Look at you, tigger 2, again, you cowardly failed to quote the post nor did you tag me with the @ (at) sign which provides an alert on this site - just like you did as shown in post #1328. I do not plan to attempt to explain why some translators translated the present tense imperfect verb eyheh into future tense in those OTHER passages; however, it was nice of you to post the truthfully accurate rendering of those OTHER passages. The Truth (John 14:6) is that your argument for “I will be” instead of “I AM” in Exodus 3:14 fails linguistically, logically, and Spiritually, and the following illuminates your errors.

The old debunked and worn out and evil Watchtower Society Exodus 3:14 delusion is presented by you. You people do not understand Hebrew, then you deceive each other and you deceive yourself (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong’s 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated “I AM” in Exodus 3:14 (the “I” occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You’re contrivance of eyheh being “I will be” indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of “I will be” for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

“I AM Who I AM” is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKh – the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'” God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.” (Exodus 3:14-15).

All three of the phrases “I AM” in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name “I AM” to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how “I am” is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: “I am with you” (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: “I am with you” (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: “I am with you” (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: “I am with your mouth” (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: “I am with your mouth” (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: “I am with you” (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God “I AM Who I AM” (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM” (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

 

[keithr]

God certainly had Jesus in His mind from eternity (us too I might add), but neither Jesus nor any of us actually existed until we were born.

I think that I've agreed with everything that you've written so far, so I'm surprised that I now find I'm having to disagree with you on that last point. Yes, Jesus did not exist as a man before he was born by Mary, but he did exist as a spirit being before that, as God's only begotten son:

John 17:5 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

Colossians 1:16 (WEB):

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.​

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

Hebrews 1:8-12 (WEB):

(8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.
(9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”
(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.
(11) They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
(12) You will roll them up like a mantle, and they will be changed; but you are the same. Your years will not fail.”​

John 8:58 (ESV):
(58) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Romans 8:3 (WEB):

(3) For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;​

Philippians 2:6-8 (WEB):

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

John 8:23 (WEB):

(23) He said to them, “You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.​

John 8:42 (WEB):

(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.​

John 8:14 (WEB):

(14) Jesus answered them, “Even if I testify about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you don’t know where I came from, or where I am going.​

John 16:28 (WEB):

(28) I came from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”​

Jesus has so far been the only living being that has had his nature changed by God - twice, from spirit being to man, and from man to divine spirit being. It is the hope of Christians that God will also change us from humans to divine spirit beings:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

 

[Wrangler]

Colossians 1:16 (WEB):
(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

Hmmm. You may be relying on a bad translation here. Any time there are 2 him's and the verse uses "him" it may be confusing who him is being referred. Putting this in context will help clarify (NLT):

v 3. God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (NOTE: God, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature, is explicitly stated to be the Father of Jesus)
v15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. (NOTE: God is invisible. Jesus is visible. Logic dictates, they are not the same being).
v 16 for through him (Jesus) God created everything. (NOTE: This is one of many verses were God is the subject of the sentence, doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, through which the action is done, e.g., through safety glasses, I did the required work).​

Hope this helps.

 

[Wrangler]

John 8:42 (WEB):
(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven’t come of myself, but he sent me.

It's rather surprising that you rely on this verse to make your point, since it proves the precise opposite. In 2 consecutive sentences Jesus does not say he is God but he came from God and was sent by God. In v 40, Jesus says he heard God.

NOTE: Jesus did not say the Father but he heard, was sent by and came from God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature.

Hope this helps.

 

[keithr]

Hmmm. You may be relying on a bad translation here. Any time there are 2 him's and the verse uses "him" it may be confusing who him is being referred. Putting this in context will help clarify (NLT):

v 3. God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (NOTE: God, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature, is explicitly stated to be the Father of Jesus)
v15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. (NOTE: God is invisible. Jesus is visible. Logic dictates, they are not the same being).
v 16 for through him (Jesus) God created everything. (NOTE: This is one of many verses were God is the subject of the sentence, doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, through which the action is done, e.g., through safety glasses, I did the required work).​

I rarely rely on the NLT because it is based on The Living Bible, which is a parphrase translation rather than a precise, accurate translation. For example, in verse 15 it says "visible likeness" which is not an accurate translation of the Greek word eikon, which means image, likeness or resemblance. Also in verse 16 it inserts the word God which is not there in the original. With a paraphrase you're having to rely on the understanding of the translator, and he/she might be wrong!

Anyway, I'm not sure why you think this verse doesn't support my claim that Jesus existed before God changed him to human. All the "him"s in the verse are referring to Jesus.

 

[keithr]

It's rather surprising that you rely on this verse to make your point, since it proves the precise opposite. In 2 consecutive sentences Jesus does not say he is God but he came from God and was sent by God. In v 40, Jesus says he heard God.

NOTE: Jesus did not say the Father but he heard, was sent by and came from God - in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature.

I'm not trying to claim that Jesus is God - I think you must be getting confused about the point I was making, which was, "Jesus did not exist as a man before he was born by Mary, but he did exist as a spirit being before that, as God's only begotten son". By quoting that John 8:42 I was trying to indicate that Jesus was alive as a spirit being before God sent him into the world as a human.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"Jesus did not exist as a man before he was born by Mary, but he did exist as a spirit being before that, as God's only begotten son".

? So, IF (Before JESUS Was "Begotten[Conceived] As A Man") He "did exist as a
spirit being, Then which was He, IF there are only TWO "types" God and angels?:

1) an angel? IF so, then These Passages are Incorrect, Correct?:

Heb 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said He at any time,
Thou Art My SON, this day have I begotten Thee? And again,
I will be to Him A Father, and He shall be to Me A SON?
Heb 1:6 And again, when He Bringeth in The Firstbegotten
into the world, He Saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
​

Makes no sense, but this does:

2) God, because:

Heb 1:8 "But Unto The SON He Saith, Thy throne, O God,
is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the
sceptre of Thy kingdom."​

Which Perfectly Matches/Confirms All of These 500 Passages!

Only one other possibility?:

3) An additional type of spirit being no one is aware of?

-------------------------------------------------------
Bible Answer To Confusing church Bewilderment!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[keithr]

? So, IF (Before JESUS Was "Begotten[Conceived] As A Man") He "did exist as a
spirit being, Then which was He, IF there are only TWO "types" God and angels?:

What about cherubims and seraphims? Philippians 2:6 tells us Jesus existed "in the form of God". We know that he was mortal, for 1 Timothy 6:16 says of God, "who alone has immortality", and because God was able to change him into a mortal human, and Jesus died.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

What about cherubims and seraphims?

Looks as if I was misinformed, as I thought mistakenly that "these" were part
of the angels

 

[Rich R]

I think that I've agreed with everything that you've written so far, so I'm surprised that I now find I'm having to disagree with you on that last point. Yes, Jesus did not exist as a man before he was born by Mary, but he did exist as a spirit being before that, as God's only begotten son:

John 17:5 (WEB):

(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​

Colossians 1:16 (WEB):

You are looking at pre-existance from our modern Western point of view. Maybe you didn't catch it, but I did offer a different view, namely, how the ancient Jews viewed pre-existance. It was Greeks, notably Plato, that spoke of the immortal soul. That was a radical departure from the view held by the ancient Jews. Our society is almost 100% Greek. We've lost the ancient Semitic world view. God gave the word to them on their terms, not to us on our terms. After all, the Bible wasn't written given to us year in New York of LA. Obvious of course, but the ramifications are huge.

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

"by" is Greek "en" which usually means "in" as in something done within the sphere of something.
"through" is the Greek word "dia" which indicates agency. Someone did something, not by themself, but through their agent
"for" is the Greek word "eis" It means the end result of something.

​

This verse is basically saying the everything was done with Jesus in mind. That is what John 1 talks about. God knew all along how He'd solve the problem of sin and death and it was to be done by the work of Jesus, His only begotten son. everything revolves around Jesus.

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

God is the subject in this verse. He had a son whom he decided would be heir of all things. Further more it was He, God, that made th worlds (ages is real translation, Greek "aion"), THROUGH (dia) Jesus. Jesus was always in God's mind as the reason He did everything.​

Hebrews 1:8-12 (WEB):

(8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom​

Not all gods are Yahweh. There are many gods in the scriptures, Again, the ancient Jews understood the word "god" in a much different way than the modern West. Actually, one need no farther than Strong's Concordance:

G2316 θεός theos (the-os') n.
1. (properly, in Greek) a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity

1 Cor 8:5 correctly says there are many gods.

(9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”

Whoever this verse was talking about had a God. Jesus had a God, but God having a God? And who exactly did God raise above his fellows? Himself?

(10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.
(11) They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
(12) You will roll them up like a mantle, and they will be changed; but you are the same. Your years will not fail.”

This whole section in Hebrews is quoting David talking about the things God, YHWY, did. YHWH created the world and age, etc. He also sent his son, anointed him, and elevated him above all others. Not sure where the pre-existance is in this section though. Maybe I misunderstand you.

​

John 8:58 (ESV):

(58) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

In God's mind, His plan, the logos. No man ever actually exists until born. Jesus was no different. It was the Greeks who came up with the idea of an eternal soul. The Jews freaked out when that started becoming the norm. We in the modern West still think like Plato instead of Moses.

In general, with the internet it's not hard to find how the Jews thought. Worth the effort for sure.

 

[Wrangler]

I rarely rely on the NLT because it is based on The Living Bible, which is a parphrase translation rather than a precise, accurate translation.

Oy vey! There is no such thing as a paraphrase translation. No translation is truly literal because of syntax differences in the different languages. Some translate words and for my money, the better translations translate thoughts of whole sentences and paragraphs for more accuracy and readability.

Anyway. Jesus said he heard God, came from God and was sent from God. These are statements from someone who is not God. This is the point of the thread.

Regarding the minor point of whether Jesus existed before he was born, I'm OK with that doctrine - provided it is acknowledged what Jesus acknowledged; that he has a God (John 20:17) and his God is the only true God (John 17:3).

 

[Rich R]

I think that I've agreed with everything that you've written so far, so I'm surprised that I now find I'm having to disagree with you on that last point. Yes, Jesus did not exist as a man before he was born by Mary, but he did exist as a spirit being before that, as God's only begotten son:

Rev 13:8,

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
​

Clearly Jesus wasn't actually slain until the early 1st century. Until then it was only in God's mind. This is a good example of how the ancient Jews understood pre-existance. Nobody actually exists until they are born. This way we don't have to say his spirit existed before his birth. That is rather Platonic. The Jews never thought that way.

​

The Greeks’ Platonic-inspired worldview included a belief that all souls pre-existed in heaven before coming to the earth. For example, the Church Fathers, trained in philosophy, interpreted Scripture through a Greek lens.

If you don't like that, at least, as you said, we agree on most things. However, understanding the nature of pre-existance in the scriptures helps clear up much confusion. At least it did for me. Maybe your experience is different. In any case, we'll know in the end. Hopefully soon!

 

[Kermos]

At least give me credit about being right about your zeal for the Lord.

"Whoever rebukes a man will afterward find more favor than he who flatters with his tongue" (Proverbs 28:23).

Maybe someday you will consider the plethora of verses that make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God along with the few you quote that, at best, are ambiguous and don't say outright that Jesus is God. Romans 10:2 comes to mind.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), John wrote that Thomas said the statement TO JESUS when John wrote "Thomas answered and said to Him" (John 20:28) thus Thomas' "my God" is Jesus, so Jesus is Thomas' One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4)!

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You don't understand that there are many gods besides YHWY (hope I spelled it right).

We’ve been through this a few times. Is everybody with the name “el” or “y/ja” also God?

Joshua (YhowShu`a) is also God? How about Israel? There must be hundreds of other names with some form of God’s name in them. A name is a name, nothing more. I live near the Southern border and not infrequently run into a Jesus. Am I to believe they’re all God?

Besides, Mary and Joseph never named their son Immanuel.

You disrespect and dishonor the Holy Name of God!

You arrogantly misspelled YHWH in an above quote along with your snide "hope I spelled it right".

Truly, Jesus says "Our Father who is in heaven, Holy is Your Name" (Matthew 6:9).

You proceed from bad to worse as you further disrespect and dishonor the Holy Name of God.

You wickedly wrote "A name is a name, nothing more" about "Immanuel".

Truly, the Apostle Matthew wrote "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His Name Immanuel, which means, God with us'" (Matthew 1:23).

Matthew, who has One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4), wrote that Jesus being Immanuel is God with us.

Then you show your wolf in sheep's clothing in full clarity when you wrote "Besides, Mary and Joseph never named their son Immanuel"; in contrast, Matthew seals the Word of God "spoken by the Lord through the prophet" (Matthew 1:22, Isaiah 7:14) with Jesus being God with us (Matthew 1:23).

The Word of God says the virgin "will call Him Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14).

Therefore, there is no doubt she called Jesus Immanuel, but you convey that you disbelieve the Word of God.

A person with respect and honor for the Name of God shows fruit of the Spirit of God.

A person without respect and honor for the Name of God is not Christian.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

"Whoever rebukes a man will afterward find more favor than he who flatters with his tongue" (Proverbs 28:23).

Oh my gosh! You are just hell bent on condemning me no matter what I say, even when I give you a compliment. Stunning!

All I can say is thank God for the scriptures:

1Cor 4:4,

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
​

For the record, I do admire your steadfastness. Forgive me if that offends you, but it's really how I feel.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Hmm...not quite sure how a (plethora) of a few Misinterpreted verses will
Outweigh the Massive (plethora?) Amount Of 500 Plain And Clear Passages?

Maybe I need a little enlightenment???

 

[keithr]

Not all gods are Yahweh. There are many gods in the scriptures, Again, the ancient Jews understood the word "god" in a much different way than the modern West. Actually, one need no farther than Strong's Concordance:

Indeed. Paul wrote in verse 8, "But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." - so Paul is claiming that this quotation was God talking to His Son, Jesus, and Jesus is not Yahweh.

Whoever this verse was talking about had a God. Jesus had a God, but God having a God? And who exactly did God raise above his fellows? Himself?

Again, Paul tells us that this was talking about Jesus, and Yahweh is Jesus' God. Yahweh is the God of all living beings.

This whole section in Hebrews is quoting David talking about the things God, YHWY, did. YHWH created the world and age, etc. He also sent his son, anointed him, and elevated him above all others. Not sure where the pre-existance is in this section though. Maybe I misunderstand you.

Again, Paul applies this verse to Jesus, that it was Jesus who "laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands". (Note that the word "Lord" was not in the original manuscripts of Psalms 102:25.) The whole of Hebrews 1 is talking about the supremacy of God's Son, Jesus.

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) [God] has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

 

[keithr]

Rev 13:8,

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​

Or as more modern translations than the KJV translate it (e.g. WEB):

(8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.​

It's the names of people that has been written "from the foundation of the world", not that the Lamb has been slain from the foundation of the world. This is confrirmed by Revelation 17:8 (KJV):

(8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Indeed. Paul wrote in verse 8, "But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever." - so Paul is claiming that this quotation was God talking to His Son, Jesus, and Jesus is not Yahweh.

I believe The Scripture Teaches Otherwise:

Act 7:2 "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of Glory
[Jesus, The 'LORD Of Glory' (1Co 2:8)] Appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,"

Christophany?: Christ (before His Birth) Appeared To Abraham, on earth,
with two angels, and we find, in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?:

"Gen 19:24 Then The LORD [Jehovah, The SON, still on earth?]
rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire From
The LORD [Jehovah, The Father?] Out Of Heaven;"​

Of course, Also Scripturally Confirmed By 500 Passages JESUS Is God!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Rich R]

Hebrews 1:2 (WEB):

(2) [God] has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.​

"...through whom also he made he worlds."

"He" refers to God. "Whom" refers to Jesus. The word "through" is Greek "dia" and it means through or by. Agency is a good way to look at "dia."

When and actor goes THROUGH (Greek dia) their agent to get a contract, does the agent become the actor?

I don't understand why it so complicated to see that one person doing anything through another makes them two separate people. I guess tradition is the culprit? It sure doesn't come from reading what's actually written, employing all the agreed upon rules of word meanings and grammar.

Heb 1:2,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

Yes, God spoke to us through His son. Prior to that He spoke through the fathers and prophets (verse 1). Didn't make them God, so why would it make Jesus God?

Who appointed God as heir of all things? Some other God, or did He just do it Himself. But there must have been a time when God was NOT heir of all things.

Heb 1:3,

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
​

God is the express image of God? And He's sitting down on whose right hand? His own? That's a good trick! I trust you know we also reflect the glory of God as well as being His image (2 Cor 3:8).

Heb 1:4,

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
​

God was made better than angels. Who made Him that way? When exactly did God receive this inheritance and get a better name than the angels?

Heb 1:5,

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
​

God told Himself, "this day have I begotten thee..?." Or was it some other God that told Him that? Grammatically, that actually makes way more sense, but it obviously raises it's own can of worms.

Heb 1:6,

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
​

If God was the first begotten, who was around to beget Him?

Heb 1:8,

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
​

Well, maybe we do have a trinity here! Let's keep reading.

Heb 1:9,

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
​

Now it gets a little strange if verse 8 says Jesus is God. I mean if he is God then verse 9 says God had a God. Not only that, but apparently at one time God was equal to His fellows (whoever they might be) until either He anointed Himself of some other God anointed Him. Either one is beyond weird!

It's also relevant to this verse that not all gods are Yahweh. Technically, I should be saying Jesus is not Yahweh, but I think people understand we are talking about Yahweh by employing the capital "G" in God.

Of course you are free to stick with the trinity. Speaking frankly I must say that there are many Trinitarians that are better examples of God's love than myself (you may well be one), so in the whole scheme of things belief or not in the trinity does not determine one's worth to God or to the works one can do for God in the here and now. Nonetheless, all these verses in Hebrews remain an enigma if one takes Jesus to be God. Perhaps those Trinitarians who are better examples of God's love than myself would shine even brighter. I think so, because as long as the two main characters in any book are confused, it's hard to get the whole story. In the case of the Bible, it would be difficult to appreciate the genius of God's plan, the logos, and the heroism of Jesus in carrying out the plan to perfection despite grave personal consequences.