A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Brakelite]

@Brakelite , I’ve not been following this thread lately, but your (rhetorical?) Mormon example is not remotely accurate as to actual LDS Christian beliefs.

I am sure you are right. But not even remotely? Let's call it an hyperbolic illustration to make the point that if Jesus' genetic roots came from anywhere other than the Father, we would be identifying Jesus as such. Whether it be a Martian or from Ganymede. We know He was from Mary in the incarnation, this He called Himself the Son of man. Obviously to stress the point that He was now one with us, identifying Himself as forever being human. But it is blindness to maintain Jesus had no existence prior to Bethlehem. He came from the Father. He said so many times. The Father called Jesus His beloved Son. The scriptures declare Him to be God's only begotten Son. @Wrangler . A title? No. More than a title. A Son in the highest sense. A Father in the highest sense.
KJV 1 John 1:1-4
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

 

[Rich R]

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 “God with us”), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

That doesn't say Jesus God. It says Jesus had a name which meant "God with us." Since God was in Jesus (2 Cor 5:19) it could indeed be said that God was with us. I trust you know that Christ is in you (Col 1:27). So it's God in Christ in you. Guess what that means? Wherever you are, God is! Have you ever thought about that? You should.

 

[Wrangler]

The scriptures declare Him to be God's only begotten Son. @Wrangler . A title? No. More than a title.

I’m not sure what thread it was but the other day someone rebuked the Appeal to Strawman of ‘only’.

It is a simple fact that any title is ‘only’ a title and it adds no value to say so, e.g., president. But no one is only the title they hold. Generally, you refer to someone by their highest title. Biden held titles of Senator, VP, and POTUS.

Jesus is the Son of God, Liberating King, Savior of the World who was GIVEN (by God) all authority in heaven and Earth but will never be his Father, who he rightfully said is the one true God, YHWH.

Would you say YHWH is only God? I hope not.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I am sure you are right. But not even remotely? Let's call it an hyperbolic illustration to make the point that if Jesus' genetic roots came from anywhere other than the Father, we would be identifying Jesus as such. Whether it be a Martian or from Ganymede. We know He was from Mary in the incarnation, this He called Himself the Son of man. Obviously to stress the point that He was now one with us, identifying Himself as forever being human. But it is blindness to maintain Jesus had no existence prior to Bethlehem. He came from the Father. He said so many times. The Father called Jesus His beloved Son. The scriptures declare Him to be God's only begotten Son. @Wrangler . A title? No. More than a title. A Son in the highest sense. A Father in the highest sense.
KJV 1 John 1:1-4
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

LDS Christians (“Mormons”) believe that Jesus Christ existed always. He is the one and only Begotten Son of God. Divine. He created the world, spoke to Moses through the burning bush, is the great I Am.

 

[Brakelite]

Not an answer to my question.

Trinitarians cannot answer such questions because it reveals their contradictions or double standards.

If Jesus is God because he came from God, then everything is God because everything came from God. The proposition is ridiculous and trinitarians have no where to go but invoke another double standard of duality.

I'm not a trinitarian in a creedal sense. I simply read scripture and accept it as it reads. And try very very hard not to go beyond what is revealed there. We as humans were created in God's image. Created to breed, as are the animals, and bring forth life after our own kind. If we read in scripture of God creating things out of nothing, such as angels and the animals, we don't call them God because their life belongs to another. They are not self existent. Neither are we self existent, even though we were formed, hand crafted, from mud. Upon whom may we ask are we dependant upon for life? Who then is God but He who creates, orders, and sustains life?
KJV Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist .

KJV John 5:26
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

What is this life that the Father gave to His Son? It is the life of the Father. The "life in Himself"... Self existent life, with power and authority to create and sustain life in others. He did not give this power to a human. He gave this power and authority to His divine Son who became a human in order to give life to us who were dead.
That God gave such authority to His Son affirms the status of the Son. More than a new title. That power and authority was His inheritance, as will be the kingdom when all things, (other powers and authorities such as that of the fallen angels and religious charlatans who usurp that authority by claiming to be gods on earth having spiritual authority over the consciences of man), will be placed under his feet.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not a trinitarian in a creedal sense. I simply read scripture and accept it as it reads.

How do you read ‘For us, there is one God, the Father?’ 1 COR 8:6. It is hard to construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement.

 

[Brakelite]

How do you read ‘For us, there is one God, the Father?’ 1 COR 8:6. It is hard to construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement.

As it stands.
Now you're going to ask me, how can the Son be God yet there be one God? Does not that make two? No. Because Jesus Himself said, I and My Father are one.

The Weymouth New Testament translates John 5:18 this way “On this account then the Jews were all the more eager to put Him to death -- because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also spoke of God as being in a special sense His Father, thus putting Himself on a level with God.” John 5:18 Weymouth translation
Another translation which is very interesting is the Daniel Mace New Testament. This one says “therefore the Jews were the more eager to kill him, because he had not only violated the sabbath, but likewise, because he had said that God was his proper father, making himself equal with God.” John 5:18 Daniel Mace translation
The reaction of the Jews to Christ’s claim to Sonship shows that this was not taken by them as though He had made it in a metaphorical or figurative sense, it as you suggest, merely a title. The Jews considered themselves sons and daughters of God. The sense was obviously accepted as literal else why did they want to stone Him because of it – also why would they say that by His claim He was “making himself equal with God”? To say that Christ’s claim to Sonship was only metaphorical (to show the love between two of the persons of the Godhead) or a 'title' is not reasonable to assume. These Jews were allowing Satan’s hatred of the Son to be worked out through them. They knew that a claim to be the Son of God was the same as claiming to be equal with God. It will not do either to say that the Jews were thinking in terms of the virgin birth. Obviously they didn’t believe such a thing actually happened. Even if Jesus had made reference to that - which He didn’t – it would still not have made Him equal with God. In fact the Jews ridiculed Jesus about his birth – or perhaps better said about His conception. They said to Jesus in one dispute “… We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.” John 8:41 Needless to say, the Jews believed that Christ was making this Sonship claim in the highest possible sense (not in the spiritual sense as they were). It must also be said that even if they had thought that Jesus was simply claiming to be the long-awaited Messiah, this would not have made Him to be “equal with God”. Christ was claiming far more than just being the Messiah. He was claiming to be the divine Son of God – and the Jews understood the ramifications (implications) of His claim.

 

[Aunty Jane]

People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5), so in effect you deliberately deceive.

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

You sure are good at judging others Kermos.....but I have to ask....what if God were to judge you in the way that you judge others? By what you post you appear to have no idea about the scriptures you use.....have you done any original word studies? Apparently not, or you would not keep making a fool of yourself by repeating your errors mindlessly as if you say it often enough someone will believe you.....all you demonstrate is your ignorance.
Is every mention of "the word" referring to Jesus? Is that what you are inferring in that scripture?
Let me use 2 Peter 3:5, 6 to show you how you have misinterpreted what John wrote......
"They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; 6 through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water." (NABRE)

Is "the word" capitalized? Because if it isn't, then it isn't referring to Jesus. It is about God's command.....his word, "Let there be...." that the heavens and the earth came into being....and waters above the earth should remain where they were, suspended above the earth, simply by his command. It was then used by God to flood the world in Noah's day.

Using the link below, please refer to Strongs Concordance and see how this word "logos" is used in all the places where it appears in the NT.

G3056 - logos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)

Perhaps if you studied original language words you wouldn't misunderstand so much and then point fingers at others for what you believe are their mistakes....when your own are glaring. For goodness sake stop and listen.....you might learn something. What you present is accusatory, prideful and arrogant, when no one appointed you the judge of what makes anyone else a "Christian".....Jesus will do that. The echo is getting old....seriously....

 

[Wrangler]

You sure are good at judging others Kermos

I'm so glad I put him on ignore.

 

[Wrangler]

As it stands.
Now you're going to ask me, how can the Son be God yet there be one God? Does not that make two? No. Because Jesus Himself said, I and My Father are one.

Not really an answer to my question. There is no verse that says there is on God consisting of the F, S & HS. A reasonable person, without a doctrinal axe to grind, take 1 COR 8:6 as it reads, only the Father is God.

How do you read ‘For us, there is one God, the Father?’ 1 COR 8:6. It is hard to construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement.

How about divining this idea: There is one God, the Father AND he gives his Spirit to others including Jesus (@ Baptism) but that does not make us (or Jesus) God?

 

[keithr]

... He called Himself the Son of man. Obviously to stress the point that He was now one with us, identifying Himself as forever being human.

Jesus has not been human since his resurrection. He cannot take back that which he sacrificed for the redemption of mankind. Likewise, as Christians, following in Jesus' footsteps, we sacrifice our lives and we will be resurrected as spirit beings, having the same divine nature as Jesus now has:

1 John 3:9 (WEB):

(9) Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.​

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (WEB):

(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(43) it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

We have been begotten by God to become sons of God. We currently still abide in our human bodies, in which God has planted a seed (conceived/begotten), but when we are born again (resurrected) and become sons of God, brothers to Jesus, then God will give us a spiritual body, just as He gave a spiritual body to Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:48-51 (WEB):

(48) As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.
(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

Human flesh can't inherit God's kingdom, so Jesus can't be human anymore. We will be changed, and given a spiritual body, and it has not yet been revealed to us what that will be like, but we will be like Jesus, having the divine nature. If we are not to be human after our resurrection then it is clear that Jesus too is not human anymore.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Jesus has not been human since his resurrection.

So, 1) this is incorrect, Correct?:

1Ti_2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
The Man Christ Jesus;" and:

2) This also is wrong, Right?:

Luk_24:39 "Behold My Hands and My feet, that It Is I Myself:
handle Me, and see; for a spirit Hath Not flesh and bones, as
ye see Me Have."

3) Just checkin'...

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Kermos]

ditto

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !


These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the GNT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."



We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty



Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:



We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.



Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.



Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."



We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.


Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

The same First and the Last in Isaiah is the same First and the Last in Revelations. He is YHWH, the Son- Jesus Christ who is the One Lord.

hope this helps !!!

Praise God!

May the Lord Jesus richly bless you, Christophany!

So much of your writing supports this next paragraph thar concludes many posts in this thread:

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Why do you keep being so insulting and accusing to anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of the Bible? You're not showing Christian love, you're displaying the spirit of Satan - Revelation 12:10 (WEB):

(10) I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ has come; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

James 3:6-12 (WEB):
(6) And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.
(7) For every kind of animal, bird, creeping thing, and sea creature, is tamed, and has been tamed by mankind;
(8) but nobody can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
(9) With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the image of God.
(10) Out of the same mouth comes blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
(11) Does a spring send out from the same opening fresh and bitter water?
(12) Can a fig tree, my brothers, yield olives, or a vine figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh water.

Romans 15:3-7 (WEB):
(3) For even Christ didn’t please himself. But, as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.”
(4) For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
(5) Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
(6) that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(7) Therefore accept one another, even as Christ also accepted you, to the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 1:3 (WEB):
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;

You call the Truth (John 14:6) insulting because it is the Truth that I proclaim to you such as the next paragraph, such a foolish thing for you to do, and this goes for you too @Wrangler since you liked keithr's post!

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion

Dear brother, you keep saying that, but where is it found in the scriptures? As far as I can tell, Jesus never did anything at his discretion.

John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
​

John 6:38,

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.​

 

[keithr]

So, 1) this is incorrect, Correct?:

1Ti_2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
The Man Christ Jesus;" and:

It is a correct statement, of course. Jesus, while a man, was the mediator between God and men, and by the sacrifice of his life he was able to mediate the New Covenant. Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant, who came between God and Israel as the messenger of it, and he sprinkled the blood of the sacrificed animals over the written covenant and the people:

Exodus 24:4-8 (WEB):

(4) And Moses wrote all the words of Jehovah, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the mount, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
(5) And he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt-offerings, and sacrificed peace-offerings of oxen unto Jehovah.
(6) And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
(7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that Jehovah hath spoken will we do, and be obedient.
(8) And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which Jehovah hath made with you concerning all these words.​

Hebrews 9:17-20 (WEB):

(17) For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth.
(18) Wherefore even the first covenant hath not been dedicated without blood.
(19) For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses unto all the people according to the law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
(20) saying, This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded to you-ward.​

Hebrews 8:6 (WEB):

(6) But now hath he [Jesus] obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.​

Hebrews 9:13-15 (WEB):

(13) For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh:
(14) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without defect to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(15) For this reason [his better sacrifice] he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.​

Jesus was the mediator of the new covenant. It has been accomplished - he is not continually mediating forevermore. There is no need for Jesus to continually remain a man so that he can continually be the mediator!

2) This also is wrong, Right?:

Luk_24:39 "Behold My Hands and My feet, that It Is I Myself:
handle Me, and see; for a spirit Hath Not flesh and bones, as
ye see Me Have."

Jesus, after his resurrection but before he had ascended to heaven to be with God (John 20:17), did appear in human form several times. Just as angels can take on human form, so could Jesus. When he appeared to Thomas he took on the same likeness as he had when he was a man, complete with the scars of his crucifixion, so as to convince the doubting Thomas. On other occasions the disciples did not recognise it was Jesus, because he appeared in a different human body - Mark 16:12 (WEB):

(12) After these things he was revealed in another form to two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country.​

But just as angels are not permanently men, so is Jesus not permanently a man.

 

[Kermos]

Amen. It's sad that we cannot at least discuss these matters on one's heart with more of an approach of patience and care for one another in the process. Feelings get hurt and it's inevitable. I also have been quick to react and prematurely at times. I love it when I see amazingly and surprisingly within me, the fruits of the Spirit bursting out in full bloom. And yet there are seasons within my life where this fruit is slow in coming.

@Kermos I do not know you and if I seem too forward and only see a chip on your shoulder today, then can I see another part of you that says you are a brother in Christ. There is no one perfect here. We are all learning and living out the plan of our God. There must be someway to at least be happy and with joy and even agree to disagree? I hope so....

It's sadly evil when people call themselves Christian, but such people deny the Christ's words.

You publicly admit that you deny the consistent Christian Apostolic testimony such as the Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13) as well as the Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28) and Peter calling Jesus "the God" (2 Peter 1:1) and Matthew says Jesus is "God with us" (Matthew 1:23) and John calls Jesus "God" (John 1:1) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1392 in this thread), yet no Christian denies such strong Apostolic testimony.

You, APAK, do not believe in the Word of God for the Word of God says Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

#1355 above:

We can find a number of translations and commentaries of Titus 2:13 which render it as referring to two persons:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

Here is the English-Greek full word-for-word of Titus 2:13:

awaiting-προσδεχόμενοι the-τὴν blessed-μακαρίαν hope-ἐλπίδα and-καὶ appearing-ἐπιφάνειαν the-τῆς glory-δόξης the-τοῦ great-μεγάλου God-Θεοῦ and-καὶ Savior-Σωτῆρος us-ἡμῶν Christ-Χριστοῦ Jesus-Ἰησοῦ

All of "God", "Savior", "Christ", and "Jesus" are genitive, singular, and masculine thus they are to be taken together as a single cohesive unit according to Greek grammar rules, and this unit has the genitive singular adjectives "glory" and "great" pointing at this unit for all the genitive singular words are inextricably tied together according to Greek grammar rules.

The logical “and” in the phrase “our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” (Titus 2:13) is linguistically tied to Jesus Christ because the word “hope” is singular as well as the word “glory” is singular in the phrase “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of” (Titus 2:13); therefore, Paul singularly refers to “our great God” and “Savior” and “Christ Jesus” as One singular.

See that linguistically, “hope” and “glory” would need to be plural in order for “our great God” and “Savior” and “Christ Jesus” to be disassociated in the evil manner which you think applies.

THE APOSTLE PAUL INDISPUTABLY CALLS JESUS “THE GREAT GOD” (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) WITH “LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPE AND THE APPEARING OF THE GLORY OF OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS” (TITUS 2:13).

The Greek grammar rules make it utterly clear in order to avoid confusion, yet you have managed to confuse yourself unto eternal punishment according to your current state. You confuse Paul's words while you neglect in your post the additional Apostolic testimony recorded in the following.

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

 

[Rich R]

NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Isa 45:5,

I, am Yahweh, and there is none else, Besides me, there is no, God,––I gird thee, though thou hast not known me:​

So you're saying that God's name, Yahweh, is also Jesus's name? It looks to me like there is no other Yahweh, but you're making up another besides Yahweh that is God, namely Jesus.

I thought Jesus was Jesus, not Yahweh, but the son of Yahweh, as the scriptures so plainly declare. I can't imaging how you make any real sense out of God's word. I guess you can always just say it doesn't have to make sense, that Yahweh's ways are above our ways. Why did Yahweh tease us by telling us things we can't possibly understand? So so many problems with mixing up the Father and His son.

All in all, I'm afraid that the last phrase in Isaiah 45:5, "though has not known me" is a very apt description of you. I really hate to say that to a brother, but somebody has to tell you the truth and give you the chance to repent. I pray you do. You are a very strong believer and would do God much good if you'd speak the truth instead of tradition. With your steadfastness and desire to believe God, you'd be amazing if you only believed the truth with the same ardor as you believe lies.

 

[Kermos]

Isa 45:5,
I, am Yahweh, and there is none else, Besides me, there is no, God,––I gird thee, though thou hast not known me:
So you're saying that God's name, Yahweh, is also Jesus's name? It looks to me like there is no other Yahweh, but you're making up another besides Yahweh that is God, namely Jesus.
I thought Jesus was Jesus, not Yahweh, but the son of Yahweh, as the scriptures so plainly declare. I can't imaging how you make any real sense out of God's word. I guess you can always just say it doesn't have to make sense, that Yahweh's ways are above our ways. Why did Yahweh tease us by telling us things we can't possibly understand? So so many problems with mixing up the Father and His son.
All in all, I'm afraid that the last phrase in Isaiah 45:5, "though has not known me" is a very apt description of you. I really hate to say that to a brother, but somebody has to tell you the truth and give you the chance to repent. I pray you do. You are a very strong believer and would do God much good if you'd speak the truth instead of tradition. With your steadfastness and desire to believe God, you'd be amazing if you only believed the truth with the same ardor as you believe lies.

That doesn't say Jesus God. It says Jesus had a name which meant "God with us." Since God was in Jesus (2 Cor 5:19) it could indeed be said that God was with us. I trust you know that Christ is in you (Col 1:27). So it's God in Christ in you. Guess what that means? Wherever you are, God is! Have you ever thought about that? You should.

That doesn't say Jesus God. It says Jesus had a name which meant "God with us." Since God was in Jesus (2 Cor 5:19) it could indeed be said that God was with us. I trust you know that Christ is in you (Col 1:27). So it's God in Christ in you. Guess what that means? Wherever you are, God is! Have you ever thought about that? You should.

Is that supposed to prove Jesus is God? You realize that it was YHWH who said that. How does that say Jesus is YHWH. It actually says quite the opposite. It says YHWH is the only true God. Oh, that's what 1 Cor 8:6 says also. Oh, well...they're just a bunch of words. The important thing is that we go along with tradition. The actual scriptures may or may not agree with tradition, but who cares about that?
I'd say about 99% of Trinity "proof" texts are just like this one in that they actually say noting whatsoever about Jesus being God. At least if one simply reads what's written.

There is no such thing as a "mere" human. God created man just a little lower than the gods.
Ps 8:4-5,
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Angels = elohim = gods (the translators couldn't stand the truth, so they changed things to agree with their preconceived ideas. Like the trinity.)
You don't understand that there are many gods besides YHWY (hope I spelled it right). That explains Thomas' calling Jesus God.
In any case I think I've been quite forthcoming in my admiration for Jesus. To you it is simply God obeying Himself and believing He'd raise Himself from the dead. Big deal! But for a man, tempted like you and I, to do that is the story of the ages. You either misunderstand me or your are just being disingenuous in your claim that I make Jesus a "mere" man. Or maybe now you've learned there is not such thing as a "mere" mean, let alone Jesus being such. You should read the Bible more and believe Orthodox doctrine less.
Learn what a god is to the Hebrews in Jesus' time. You are putting your ideas ahead of those to whom the scriptures were given, i.e. Israel some 2,000years ago.
So you say.
You sure like the word "foolishness."
Where did I say Jesus and the Father are not one? You're making stuff up. I guess because you have nothing substantive to argue?
Are you mixing me up with someone else maybe? I don't know how else to explain your total mis-characterization of what I've said.
Well, I share my "foolishness" with virtually all Hebrew scholars. Why are you so afraid of facts? I didn't invent Hebrew.
Do you deny that God many times decided to end Israel, only to change His mind after Moses interceded? Read the OT more carefully and without preconceived ideas. God changed His mind many many times because the situation changed.
Read the context of Malachi 3:6. God is simply saying He will accomplish His final aim or restoring Israel. I never denied that. In fact, I magnified His greatness by showing you how God is genius enough to accomplish His goal while working with free will people. He's not going to force Israel into anything they don't want. Instead He is able to use His goodness to attract people by their own choice (Rom 2:4). You completely miss that and denigrate God in the process. You make Him into a control freak that forces His will onto mankind.
Your doctrine completely minimizes God's ability to bring about His will with free will humans, as well as the heroism of Jesus in always doing the Father's will despite grave injury to himself. You are the one making him something he is not, i.e. a man who is also a god. How do you not see the Paganism in that? It absolutely wreaks of Paganism!
Jesus was tempted just like you and I in all points (Heb 4:15). Do you feel like God when tempted? I doubt it, so maybe Hebrews 4:15 shouldn't be in the Bible.
In general, humble yourself, ditch tradition, and learn the truth. The Christ in you (Col 1:27) will remain largely dormant until you do that. A sad waste of power.

You demonstrated a staggering level of linguistic errors, omissions, and/or misrepresentations as shown in the following links

You wickedly promote mere humans to being God while you evilly demote Jesus from being God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #848 in this thread), and you deceptively try to confuse Jesus' special place as Immanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6).

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread), so you deny Apostolic testimony.

You desperately try to change the Word of God into "that they also may be one with us" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1003 in this thread), so you nullify the Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14) in your heart by exalting your thoughts above God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).

You foolishly claim the Greek "en" can mean "with", yet "en" truly means "in", and your foolishness targets your thoughts that Jesus does not mean "one" when Jesus says "one" both in John 10:30 and John 17:21-22 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1213 in this thread), so you are under the delusion that. Jesus is not one with the Father despite Jesus truthfully declaring of the Father and Himself "We are One" (John 17:22). You are fixated on the temporal instead of the eternal.

By your writing, your illogic is illuminated, your linguistic foolishness abounds, and you expose your fleshly natural state of being (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1269 in this thread); consequently, (1) you deny the personification references of the Father as well as the Christ in scripture, (2) you deny the true meaning of "one" as shown near the pie example, (3) you deny Jesus' sayings of "We are One" (John 17:22) by adulterating His words with your limiting words from your heart, (4) you deny the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) by imposing your temporal treasure on Jesus, (5) you change the language of Ephesians 1:4, and (6) you deny Jesus is God despite the testimony of scripture indicating that Jesus is God.

In a bout of linguistic foolishness, you preach that "I will be" is correct for Exodus 3:14 instead of "I AM" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1280 in this thread); therefore, you convey that your heart's treasure is that God does change in direct contradiction to the Word of God saying "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

(1)You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change" (2) in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel" (3) which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1331 in this thread), so you call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

You show a repeated disrespect and dishonor and disregard for the God Most High by misspelling the sacred and Holy Name of God, YHWH, (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #1287 in this thread) in at least 3 different posts; therefore, you publicly show just how little God means to you as well as your failure to understand God

You have a false god that you created based on your thoughts that you named Jesus, yet your false god is not the Jesus revealed in the Word of God.