Christ's Christianity and Paul's Christianity are Not the Same

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Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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No doubt Paul was a great man and a man of God, but throughout the Bible, there have been different prophets who have given a message of God to the people (often they did not want to hear it). Paul was concerned with building the Church and by building the Church he was clearly concerned that in Corinth, if he did not separate the brothers who were sinners with those who were not, the Church might falter. I am not saying that Paul was not sent to spread the Church, preach the Gospels and do God's work, what I am saying is that there is a clear difference in how Jesus acted and what Jesus said, from how Paul acted and what Paul said- in some instances. One example is the one I began with, Jesus claiming that sinners are in need of a "doctor" i.e. Christ's love and guidance, and Paul who wants to separate the brothers in sin from those he considers worthy of the right to practice Christianity.



[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Is not the message of Christ that sinners, even sinners who are proclaimed Christian, are those most in need of Christ's love?[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Again Jesus says "[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do." [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)] ([/background]Matthew 9:11-12[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]) So we snub and alienate the brothers who are judged as sinners to preserve the Church that Paul is building? Or do we act as doctors and offer Christ's love to those in sin....[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]As for being Christlike, or doing what Christ did, I don't think it is beyond the capabilities of us Christians to eat with sinners and welcome sinners in our Churches be they swindlers, drunkards, sexually immoral, greedy etc...the whole point of Christ is to welcome sinners and change their hearts.[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]GB[/background]

And what do you do when their hearts are not changed and they are inflicting pain on the church...ask the average person what the average preacher or evangelist,TV especially.means to them...they will probably say a womanizing swindler and con man...how do you think that happened ? it happened because church discipline is a thing of the past and the average christian doesn't have the integrity much less the guts to confront anybody about anything because they have no real solid standards for themselves they have none for anybody else.....and they call themselves "christ like" for doing it.

The modern church is drowning in a sea of mik sops,weak willed weak kneed belly crawlers who subject the name of Jesus and his church to every kind of filth imaginable....and call themselves "christ like" for doing it....those who met Jesus had their hearts changed because they met the one who changes hearts,when they meet you or me they are just meeting somebody who is making claims and they have to see if those claims are real,when we are weak and act the same way the world does and allow them to act that way with no response they will walk away or they will see the church as easy pickings and begin devouring the sheep....what a suprise it will be for some people when they realize that Jesus is holy and perfect and that he requires repentance,and a changed life to enter the kingdom of God.....this light,breezy,easy as falling off a log christianity will vanish,the weak,flacis almost effeminate Jesus of people's wicked imaginations will also vanish.
 

tallycello

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I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions.

God Bless
 

mark s

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Nov 12, 2010
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It's a simple matter. We can either do what the Bible tells us to do, or not.

Your choice.
 

tallycello

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If that is easy for you to do Mark S. I commend you because it is my experience, doing what the Bible tells us to do is easier said than done. Plus, it is hard for me, personally, to know what the Bible is telling me or asking me to do at times. That is, my understanding is that the bar is set very high in how we are to conduct ourselves in the Judeo-Christian Faith and we fall at times; and, reaching that high standard is often a very difficult road for anyone to reach. In my view, Jesus reached that level of doing what God calls us to do , but for most of us, it is a highly complicated and difficult road.

GB
 

accdan

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May 11, 2012
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I think the key is this- did Paul follow Christ? The answer of course is Yes. In following Christ, Paul was instructed to teach and enforce church discipline. So is church discipline from Christ?- Yes.
 
Jul 6, 2011
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Unlike Paul, Christ didnt write any of the NT.
But as has been pointed out, and amongst other contexts, Paul's letters are primarily to Gentiles, not least in Greek culture. The objections and confusion about 'Jesus and Paul' is heavily influenced by a society whose thinking is very much like the Greeks, not least Stocisim and Epicureamism. Thats why they dont like Paul's letters.
 

tallycello

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I think the key is this- did Paul follow Christ? The answer of course is Yes. In following Christ, Paul was instructed to teach and enforce church discipline. So is church discipline from Christ?- Yes.

I believe this to be true as well, I also know that many Christians follow Christ and try to do his work, but being critical of someone who is following Christ is a good way to understand where they are coming from. My original post in my blog tried to look at finding anything that I could question about Jesus, and honestly, I really couldn't find anything wrong. I admit that when I read the letters of Paul, I sometimes question what it is he is saying. That is not to say he wasn't following Christ or God's will, but Paul, as great a man he was, was not perfect (neither am I perfect!). From the responses on here I better understand the difficult situation he was in in Corinth. What do you do if half of the church you founded is living in sin to the point where it is disruptive to the service? That's a tough one for any Christian. Paul made a decision to write a letter telling those who were the Christians who wanted to follow Paul's instructions not to hang around with brothers who were living in sin- and didn't care that they were living in sin.
 

HammerStone

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I Corinthians 5:1-2 ESV
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

Context is everything.

I take issue with your assertion of another gospel (Galations 1:8 ESV), because that's a serious charge.

Jesus was dealing with sinners of the world - people who did not know God. Paul is dealing with people who were professed believers within the Corinthian church. People who said they were Christian but were committing egregious sins with that would shock even the most heinous pagan worshiper of the day. Grace is one thing, but Jesus dealt with another group very similar to the wayward believers at Corinth, though their sins weren't the same.

The Pharisees were not exactly someone Jesus pal'ed around with. He frequently rebuked them.

I think you've got to look at the context of the chapter, and then I think it's pretty clear that there is no contradiction.
 

tallycello

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This brings up an interesting point in my mind- when I thought this topic had reached the end to be honest with you. My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write? We could say that it is all God speaking through them and leave it at that- but I would argue that reading the Beatitudes are the strongest, most wonderful and most beautiful statement anyone on earth has made and certainly comes from a place of deep authority and love. And every word that Jesus speaks , in my mind and heart, has a greater love and compassion for humanity than what Paul has to write in his letters.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.

Son of God > Apostle/Saint
 

veteran

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I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions.

God Bless

It's necessary to read the WHOLE CHAPTER to get the gist of Paul's anger... and then... his other Epistle regarding the fornicator with his own mother in 1 Cor.5...

The Rebuke:

1 Cor 5:1-13
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
(KJV)


Christ's first coming was to call sinners to repentance. Paul's duty in Christ for those 'within' Christ's Church was discipline and judgment of those in Christ's Body, not sinners outside His Body. So when Paul preached The Gospel to the sinner 'without', that was the SAME application of The Gospel that Jesus did, and thus Paul went directly to sinners with that Gospel.

But for Christ's Body, members 'within', a rebuke and judgment was necessary, OTHERWISE WHAT?

Otherwise, Christ's Body would become NO DIFFERENT than the fallen world 'outside' His Body! And "there's the rub".


THAT difference is NOT an idea that originated from Paul's personal ideas. IT ORIGINATED FROM THE LORD HIMSELF...

2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, "Iwill dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
(KJV)


Later in 2 Cor.2, Paul recommends forgiveness after the brother was corrected...

2 Cor 2:1-11
1 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.
2 For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
3 And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
(KJV)

It is FALSENESS to think Jesus and Paul approached the sinner differently.

It's easy to distinguish that falseness as a doctrine of devils, simply because of what's happening today in many Churches regarding members and sin. Most Churches no longer OPENLY REBUKE members within that are sinning? Now we have Churches that glory... in sin, even flaunting sin! (gay churches). Those churches that do that are what God called 'beth'avens' in the Old Testament, houses of vanity.

So this whole idea that 'tallycello' has brought up here should be WATCHED, CLOSELY. It's an easy tool to play on member's GUILT EMOTIONS FOR REBUKING AND CORRECTING MEMBERS WITHIN CHRIST'S BODY!
 

tallycello

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Weird, you quoted me actually sympathizing with Paul's decision and then said I am in danger of corrupting Christ's Body , or the Church- this is what I said:

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]"I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions."[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]God Bless[/background]
 

mark s

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This brings up an interesting point in my mind- when I thought this topic had reached the end to be honest with you. My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write? We could say that it is all God speaking through them and leave it at that- but I would argue that reading the Beatitudes are the strongest, most wonderful and most beautiful statement anyone on earth has made and certainly comes from a place of deep authority and love. And every word that Jesus speaks , in my mind and heart, has a greater love and compassion for humanity than what Paul has to write in his letters.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.

Son of God > Apostle/Saint

No, you are still trying to play the Bible against itself.

To me that expresses an agenda against Scripture.

I guess you really are jaded!
 
Jul 6, 2011
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tallycello,
My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write?
As has been pointed out your question is error. Jesus didnt write any of the Bible. What you mean is should you, (not we) hold what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote about what Jesus said as did rather than what Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James and the writer of Hebrews wrote about what Jesus had said and taught.
but I would argue that reading the Beatitudes are the strongest, most wonderful and most beautiful statement anyone on earth has made and certainly comes from a place of deep authority and love.
Many humanists and even atheists would agree with you.
And every word that Jesus speaks , in my mind and heart, has a greater love and compassion for humanity than what Paul has to write in his letters.
Such as in Matthew 23? You blind gudies, you brood of vipers, whitewashed tombs condemned to hell? Do you really think that is loving and compassionate? I do, but I look forward to your response and then I will tell you why.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.
Let me ask you then, if Luke who wrote the gospel, also wrote Acts which endorses Paul who claimed he preached what he recieved from the risen Lord, are you not treating the witness of someone who didnt encounter Jesus as more reliable than someone who did? Especially as Peter also endorses Paul's writing and Peter was one of Christ's close disciples.

In short you are making the assumption that the gospel writers were a more reliable witness of Christ and Paul only gave his own ideas. You don't even agree with the gospel writers there.
 

jiggyfly

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14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit.17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong.18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is.19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen.​

Paul in Eph 3:14-21 (NLT)

I think Paul's writings as all scripture are inspired by the same Spirit that inspired Jesus in His earthly ministry.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions.

God Bless

Jesus died on the cross for our sins and as sinners we always seem to want more,i spent alot of years asking who don't you do this Jesus and why don't you do that....when Jesus said "it is finished" it completed for all time all that was needed...but in our day we want a new deal,a new plan,more time,more money,more methods.The bible tells now,today, is the time of salvation while we tell people who may be dead in the next 5 seconds that for all practical purposes they have all the time in the world and in the meantine please be amused and entertained by all of our christian alternatives to everything the world offers,Music,Movies,Books,Celebrities of every kind....kiddie cartoons......and courtesy of TBN....A "Holy Land" amusement park complete with rides and Broadway style shows....don't miss the 4 o"clock stage production of the crucifiction starring Jesus,played by (insert name here)....it's all insanity.
 

tallycello

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I don't see why holding the words of Jesus to a higher regard than anything else written in the Bible is really such a radical idea. Paul even says in Ephesians:

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.


Jesus is Head of the Church and everyone else, including St. Paul is a part of the Body. Now, you could argue that St Paul is the leader of the body of the Church but it is Jesus who stands alone as Lord and Savior and his teachings and words are the words and teachings of one who stands alone as the head of the entire Christian Church. Jesus is Lord- Paul would certainly agree with that as he clearly writes in Ephesians. It is not to say that Paul's writings are not the Holy Spirit working through him, but Paul is not our Lord and Savior and the greatest words and teachings come from our savior , Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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I have seen many methods used to discredit the bible and make null and void the word of God and its power and authority in lives of men....guess i can add another one now.....the words of Jesus.
 

mark s

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I don't see why holding the words of Jesus to a higher regard than anything else written in the Bible is really such a radical idea.

To say that one part of the Bible is held to a higher regard is to say other parts are to be regarded less. And that de-values God's Word.

So in saying you "hold Jesus' words to a higher regard", you are actually disregarding Jesus' words since God is the Author of Scripture.

You truly don't see this??? How can it be that you do not???

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

veteran

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I see a political 'agenda' in his reasoning, like a form of Utopian Universalism.

There are some Churches today that are aligned with a Socialist world view for Christianity, and they desire to strike out all the rebukes and disciplining Scripture examples that keeps a believer on Christ Jesus in His Body The Church under His Authority.

What those do is try to go around... Christ's Authority for His Church, and instead create their 'own' false authority per the tenets of this... world. That movement started in the U.S. back around the 1900's with Socialists creeping into the Church, and we may expect to see a greater version of it for the last days, because it will involve the coming world beast kingdom trying to persuade Christians to join with ALL... religions of the world under one head, the false messiah-antichrist that's coming.
 

Axehead

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That's why in my original post I said "if we assume that we are to emulate Christ"- you don't have to do anything Jesus did if that is your choice. I was coming from the perspective that Christianity and Christians strive to be "Christlike" ...Saints have died in the name of Christ, in fact Paul was one of them.

Do you mind if we deal with this concept that we are to "emulate Christ". That is not what the NT teaches. The Christian life is not emulating or imitating Christ. The Christian life cannot be lived by any man and Jesus never taught us to emulate Him.

The Christian life cannot be lived unless one has the indwelling Holy Spirit and then we are to yield to the Lord. Follow Him, hear Him, submit to His leading. We are to bring our wills into harmony with His will.

To emulate or imitate only ends up in religiousness and will not bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, simply because YOU are the ONE trying to be like Jesus and live the Christian life when the only way to be like Him is to die to self and yield to Him. Then will you be conformed to His image. Everything else will either end in extreme frustration or Phariseeism.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Axehead