What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

DJT_47 · Feb 11, 2024

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?

Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.

The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.

What is 'concupiscence'?

Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.

"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)

(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)

2 Cor 12:7-10

"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Romans 7:7-11

"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
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DJT_47 · Feb 25, 2024

Where's all the responses? Erased? Oh well. But I thought I'd supplement my OP with the following to help people in their understanding of this topic, due to the obvious confusion from what I recall from the responses posted.

Many responses to this seemed to suggest Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of physical ailment or medical in nature. But in that regard, one must only look at the Lord's response to Paul who besought the Lord thrice (times) to remove it from him or rid him of it.

So what was the Lord's response to Paul?

"My grace is sufficient for thee" (2 Cor 12:9).

So ask yourself if the Lord's response would make sense if Paul asked him to remove an eye ailment as some suggested he may have had, or any of the other type of medical issue people or "scholars" have suggested.

Hypothetically, if Paul said "please Lord remove this eye ailment from me, and make my eyes better", or maybe "please Lord, please take this stomach pain from me", etc. Would the Lord's response make any sense at all?

"My grace is sufficient for thee".

I don't think so.

FaithWillDo · Feb 25, 2024

DJT_47 said:
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh as he claimed he was plagued with in 2 Cor 12:8 and "besought the Lord thrice" (3 times) to rid him of it?

Some say (erroneously), it was an affliction of some kind. However, when you look carefully at the text, it's clear to see it was not a bodily disorder or disease, nor would such warrant the Lord's grace as stated in 2 Cor 12:9.

The answer as to what it was lies in Paul's letter to the church at Rome, Rom 7:8: The fleshly lust of 'concupiscence'.

What is 'concupiscence'?

Strong sexual desire; lust. The desire and enjoyment of carnal pleasure.

"Strong desire, especially sexual desire" (Webster)

(see both pertinent texts below, KJV)

2 Cor 12:7-10

"7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Romans 7:7-11

"7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
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Dear DLT,
I believe that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was the tremendous amount of physical suffering that he had to endure for the sake of spreading the Gospel.

2Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

The messengers of Satan are the people who inflicted the beatings, whippings, ect. on Paul. And as Paul says above, this made him "weak" in the flesh.

Joe

Tommy Cool · Feb 25, 2024

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The Word doesn’t give specifics …but from the context we know it was a messenger of satan to buffet.

Messenger = angelos … The messengers referred to in the scripture are either spirit messengers (angels) or human messengers… sent by God, satan, or people. From the context in verse 2Co 12:7 we might conclude this was a human messenger sent by satan. (Reference Num 33:55)

Buffet = beat up…. could be literal or figurative (as in verbally) …or both.

Ronald Nolette · Feb 25, 2024

DJT_47 said:
Where's all the responses? Erased? Oh well. But I thought I'd supplement my OP with the following to help people in their understanding of this topic, due to the obvious confusion from what I recall from the responses posted.

Many responses to this seemed to suggest Paul's thorn in the flesh was some kind of physical ailment or medical in nature. But in that regard, one must only look at the Lord's response to Paul who besought the Lord thrice (times) to remove it from him or rid him of it.

So what was the Lord's response to Paul?

"My grace is sufficient for thee" (2 Cor 12:9).

So ask yourself if the Lord's response would make sense if Paul asked him to remove an eye ailment as some suggested he may have had, or any of the other type of medical issue people or "scholars" have suggested.

Hypothetically, if Paul said "please Lord remove this eye ailment from me, and make my eyes better", or maybe "please Lord, please take this stomach pain from me", etc. Would the Lord's response make any sense at all?

"My grace is sufficient for thee".

I don't think so.

Well infirmity only means one thing- illness physically. If it was some spiritual problem then you are sayhing Paul glories in his liusts and evil desires! That is what makes no sense.

Also Satan afflicted Job with infirmities.

Also Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his oft infirmities. Drinkng wine because of some demonic torment??????????????

While Pauls use of the word "sarx" for flesh leaves open the possibility of it being a carnal lust, it makes no sense for Paul to glory in his carnal lust.

No it was a physical malady and as most scholars agree (as do I) It was probably impaired vision based on the fact that Paul had all his letters transcribed by someone and he just wrote the closing salutation.

also Galatians 6:11:

11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

MatthewG · Feb 25, 2024

No one knows. People can only speculate.

If it was meant for us to know, he would have told us.

DJT_47 · Feb 25, 2024

Ronald Nolette said:
Well infirmity only means one thing- illness physically. If it was some spiritual problem then you are sayhing Paul glories in his liusts and evil desires! That is what makes no sense.

Also Satan afflicted Job with infirmities.

Also Paul told Timothy to drink wine for his oft infirmities. Drinkng wine because of some demonic torment??????????????

While Pauls use of the word "sarx" for flesh leaves open the possibility of it being a carnal lust, it makes no sense for Paul to glory in his carnal lust.

No it was a physical malady and as most scholars agree (as do I) It was probably impaired vision based on the fact that Paul had all his letters transcribed by someone and he just wrote the closing salutation.

also Galatians 6:11:

11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

As I recently supplemented my post to negate the view that it was a physical ailment becsuse the Lord's response would therefore make no sense, I'll repeat it again for you.

If it was a physical ailment, Paul's question to the Lord would NOT have prompted the response he received. The Lord's response to Paul, the wording the Lord used would make no sense.
The Lord's response was "My grace is sufficient for thee".

Would that response to a request to remove a physical ailment make sense? NO!

If Paul said in a prayer to the Lord "please heal my eyes", would "My grace is sufficient for thee" make any sense at all??

And likewise would the Lord's response make no sense for any other physical ailment.

Bob · Feb 25, 2024

Thank you for your posts.

Your speculation makes a lot of sense. Strong people will come to terms with physical ailments and learn how to manage with them, but defeating a desire that is sinful can be a life-long torment.

My interpretation of “My grace is sufficient” is that God recognizes we will always have basic animal instincts, and thus He can forgive our unbidden thoughts when (in our obedience to Him) they do not result in action.

Some commentators state that God’s response was intended to keep the apostle humble. Certainly, as a result, Paul would have compassion for those tortured by desires of the flesh, and would have been confident that the truth of the gospel would be the answer.

Peace!

Ronald Nolette · Feb 25, 2024

DJT_47 said:
As I recently supplemented my post to negate the view that it was a physical ailment becsuse the Lord's response would therefore make no sense, I'll repeat it again for you.

If it was a physical ailment, Paul's question to the Lord would NOT have prompted the response he received. The Lord's response to Paul, the wording the Lord used would make no sense.
The Lord's response was "My grace is sufficient for thee".

Would that response to a request to remove a physical ailment make sense? NO!

If Paul said in a prayer to the Lord "please heal my eyes", would "My grace is sufficient for thee" make any sense at all??

And likewise would the Lord's response make no sense for any other physical ailment.

Yes it would make sense. If Paul had a semi debillitating ailment in only makes sense for God to say His grace is sufficent. Especially in light of the fact that the word for infirmity was never used of spiritual persecution.

Luke 13:11
And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmityeighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 13:12
And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
John 5:5
And a certain man was there, which had an infirmitythirty and eight years.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmityof your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Galatians 4:13
Ye know how through infirmityof the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Hebrews 5:2
Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

It also makes no sense for Paul to rejoice in having carnal desires which is your implication.
- Romans 8:26
  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
- Romans 15:1
  We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmitiesof the weak, and not to please ourselves.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
- 2 Corinthians 11:30
  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
- 2 Corinthians 12:5
  Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
- 2 Corinthians 12:9
  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
- 2 Corinthians 12:10
  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
- 1 Timothy 5:23
  Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
Pay special attention to 1 Tim. 5:23 do you really think Paul would tell timothy to drink wine for spiritual torment????

DJT_47 · Feb 25, 2024

Ronald Nolette said:
Yes it would make sense. If Paul had a semi debillitating ailment in only makes sense for God to say His grace is sufficent. Especially in light of the fact that the word for infirmity was never used of spiritual persecution.

Luke 13:11
And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmityeighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke 13:12
And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

John 5:5
And a certain man was there, which had an infirmitythirty and eight years.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmityof your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Galatians 4:13
Ye know how through infirmityof the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Hebrews 5:2
Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

It also makes no sense for Paul to rejoice in having carnal desires which is your implication.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 15:1
We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmitiesof the weak, and not to please ourselves.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Corinthians 12:5
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Corinthians 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Pay special attention to 1 Tim. 5:23 do you really think Paul would tell timothy to drink wine for spiritual torment????

Paul was a human being, a male, and one can only assume he had the same urges and desires as do all. And what I'm suggesting is being opposed to his thorn being a physical or medical problem which I referred to as a physical ailment. In this regard the Lord's statement makes zero sense. If Paul besought the Lord on numerous occasions to have the Lord remove IT, a singular issue, I'm of the persuasion it was of a non-medical nature hence the words used by the Lord in his response to Paul. It was something plaguing him which wouldn't be external persecutions etc., but rather something personal and of a tempting one. That's my take on it. You are welcome to your own.

Ronald Nolette · Feb 26, 2024

DJT_47 said:
Paul was a human being, a male, and one can only assume he had the same urges and desires as do all. And what I'm suggesting is being opposed to his thorn being a physical or medical problem which I referred to as a physical ailment. In this regard the Lord's statement makes zero sense. If Paul besought the Lord on numerous occasions to have the Lord remove IT, a singular issue, I'm of the persuasion it was of a non-medical nature hence the words used by the Lord in his response to Paul. It was something plaguing him which wouldn't be external persecutions etc., but rather something personal and of a tempting one. That's my take on it. You are welcome to your own.

You can be whatever persuasion you wish, but the word used that was inspired by God refers to a physical malady.

Also you are saying that God sent Paul an evil temptation to buffet Paul above and beyond normal desires. so you are accusing God of tempting Paul to keep him humble--that makes no sense.

MatthewG · Feb 26, 2024

No one knows what it was. Paul prayed three times yet he still had troubles. Grace from God is enough, according to the Lord.

I still have troubles. Thankfully that tends to keep me from exalting myself over others.

marks · Feb 26, 2024

FaithWillDo said:
Dear DLT,
I believe that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was the tremendous amount of physical suffering that he had to endure for the sake of spreading the Gospel.

2Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

The messengers of Satan are the people who inflicted the beatings, whippings, ect. on Paul. And as Paul says above, this made him "weak" in the flesh.

Joe

I agree.

The only place in Scripture where I see this same idiom used is,

Numbers 33:55 KJV
But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Much love!

DJT_47 · Feb 26, 2024

Ronald Nolette said:
You can be whatever persuasion you wish, but the word used that was inspired by God refers to a physical malady.

Also you are saying that God sent Paul an evil temptation to buffet Paul above and beyond normal desires. so you are accusing God of tempting Paul to keep him humble--that makes no sense.

God does not send temptations. And you are the one saying these things here not me. I never said anything of the kind. These are your words. Goodbye

Ronald Nolette · Feb 27, 2024

DJT_47 said:
God does not send temptations. And you are the one saying these things here not me. I never said anything of the kind. These are your words. Goodbye

2 Corinthians 12

King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So who sent this messenger of Satan to keep Paul humble? The devil? An angel? who?

DJT_47 · Feb 27, 2024

Ronald Nolette said:
2 Corinthians 12

King James Version

12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So who sent this messenger of Satan to keep Paul humble? The devil? An angel? who?

God does not tempt.

James 1:13

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Ronald Nolette · Feb 27, 2024

DJT_47 said:
God does not tempt.

James 1:13

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

So who sent the messenger of Satan to Paul? It doesn't say to tempt him but to buffet him. But in your scenario as you call this infirmity his carnal desires, who sent the messenger to keep him humble??????

I agree that God does not tempt man, but if this infirmity is a heightened carnal desire as you say- it is temptation to sin. So who sent it to keep him humble. Teh devilcertainly wouldn't.

DJT_47 · Feb 27, 2024

Ronald Nolette said:
So who sent the messenger of Satan to Paul? It doesn't say to tempt him but to buffet him. But in your scenario as you call this infirmity his carnal desires, who sent the messenger to keep him humble??????

I agree that God does not tempt man, but if this infirmity is a heightened carnal desire as you say- it is temptation to sin. So who sent it to keep him humble. Teh devilcertainly wouldn't.

The devil tempts. God allows us to be tempted but the devil tempts. And I don't call it, the bible describes it in Paul's own words. The KJV, which I typically read from, and a few other translations, translate as "concupiscence", but most translations say covetousness as does the interlinear, or covetous desires.

Bob · Feb 27, 2024

DJT_47 said:
The devil tempts. God allows us to be tempted but the devil tempts. And I don't call it, the bible describes it in Paul's own words. The KJV, which I typically read from, and a few other translations, translate as "concupiscence", but most translations say covetousness as does the interlinear, or covetous desires.

Just a comment on the many replies that insist scripture “proves” the Apostle had to have had a physical ailment. Common sense should inform us that Paul would not have appealed to God to remove a physical thorn: that is not in keeping with Jewish theology or practice.

In contrast, help with spiritual thorns is precisely what Christianity is intended to manage. Whatever form it took with the Apostle, it must have been tortuous, and although he successfully resisted it time and time again, he would have preferred God would banish completely.

(I’ll leave it to you and others to debate the source of the thorn.)

Peace and blessings.

DJT_47 · Feb 27, 2024

Bob said:
Just a comment on the many replies that insist scripture “proves” the Apostle had to have had a physical ailment. Common sense should inform us that Paul would not have appealed to God to remove a physical thorn: that is not in keeping with Jewish theology or practice.

In contrast, help with spiritual thorns is precisely what Christianity is intended to manage. Whatever form it took with the Apostle, it must have been tortuous, and although he successfully resisted it time and time again, he would have preferred God would banish completely.

(I’ll leave it to you and others to debate the source of the thorn.)

Peace and blessings.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh?

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