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CadyandZoe

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Christians do boast in the hope they have in Christ by their faith in him. As the Christian continues to believe, his hope will not disappoint. As we remain faithful, we do experience the love of God in our hearts.
You have misconstrued what Paul said. You have reframed his position in terms of actions we take, when Paul was not speaking about actions we take but qualities we possess.
However, I gave you over two posts of quotes from Peter, Paul, James, and Jesus that teach us Christians that we are responsible to continue in the faith, to continue walking in the Spirit, to receive what we hope for, and not everyone will remain in “The Faith” as the quotes also very clearly teach. You never responded to those.
Right. There was no need to respond to them because they don't nullify the work of the Spirit in the hearts of human beings. Are Christians exhorted to live according to the teachings of Jesus, to believe in him, and to trust his word? Yes. Some do, some don't and some fall away. Peter, James and Paul teach us why some will never fall away.
“Fatalism” means that the destiny of human beings is controlled inexorably and ultimately by God,” which is what you have been saying all along, and of which I have quoted from you.
Yes, that is part of what fatalism means, but that is not all it means. Fatalism also says that it doesn't matter what we do because everything has already been decided. The Biblical view of determinism isn't fatalistic because it DOES matter what we do.
In other words, there is no room for change on our part, because God creates all our choices.
Why can't it be both?
 

CadyandZoe

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The Gospel is a command. We are commanded to believe.

Why? For a dog and pony show?

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 KJV
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Isn't Paul here urging others to receive the reconciliation? But not having been offered?

Much love!
Yes. I agree. Here is another passage that speaks in similar terms.

Romans 1:4-6.
. . . who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Here Paul talks about the "obedience of faith." He also refers to his readers as "the called of Jesus Christ" and as I have been preparing to answer these posts I have discovered that Paul uses the term "called" in a special way to indicate those whom God has set aside for salvation.

I want to be clear. When I say that salvation is not an "offer," I mean that it is not a quid pro quo (this for that) exchange. It isn't as if God is saying, "If you give me the faith I require of you, then I will bless you with Eternal Life." I don't want to lead anyone to conclude that salvation is nothing more than a tit-for-tat exchange between God and the penitent.

Paul writes, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Some have turned this into a formula, suggesting that a "one-time" confession will result in salvation. But many of us understand that the process of salvation is relational. As you say, we need to make peace with God; we need to reconcile with God.

Some might think that salvation is offered to those who can answer correctly on a true/false test. "Is Jesus Lord or not? True. "Is Jesus the savior?" True. "Is he a member of the Godhead?" True and so on. God will save anyone who gets a passing grade on the test.

But this seems to push repentance down the line or ignore it altogether. What is true about me personally? Am I, personally in need of forgiveness? Am I a sinner and am I willing to admit it? Am I evil? Do I carry a set of balanced scales? Do I expect forgiveness when I injure you, expecting justice when you injure me? Am I arrogant or humble? Do I care about the welfare of others?

Anyway, in my view, the most essential aspect of being at peace with God is having the proper inwardness.
 

CadyandZoe

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Jesus is the Elect Servant. All who are in Christ share what He has, including His election. We were chosen "in Him". We are not "in Him" until we are reborn.

Much love!
Yes, but Paul is going a step further. I agree with everything you just said, but in the Greek, Paul makes a further point. Not only are we "elect" because we are in him, but we are "in him" from the foundation of the world.

Some understand it this way. God chose those in him to be his elect. I chose whether or not to be in him. But that is not what Paul means. He is saying that not only did God chose to favor those "in him" he also chose who would be in him.
 

CadyandZoe

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Behold, the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world. Seems clear to me.

Much love!
The question is: Did John mean to say, "the earth, together with all of its countries, peoples, and natural features?" I don't think that is what John meant to say.

"He is speaking about a belief system that denies God's favor to Gentiles. In response, John wants to emphasize that Gentiles, as a group, are not excluded from God's grace in Jesus Christ. Jesus takes away the sins of both Jews and Gentiles, but it doesn't necessarily mean that every Jew or Gentile is included. That's not what John meant."
 

CadyandZoe

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I'm not sure what words you would need to read to define a passage as an "offer".

Here is one place that speaks this way to me:

Matthew 11:28-30 KJV
28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Much love!
Yes! That's the passage I was looking for yesterday. Thanks for that. I note that Jesus' offer is not framed as a "quid pro quo" exchange. The only condition associated with this offer is a recognition of need.
 

marks

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I want to be clear. When I say that salvation is not an "offer," I mean that it is not a quid pro quo (this for that) exchange.
This is why I like the simplicity of "come to Me (you do this), and I will give you rest (I will do that).

Much love!
 

marks

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But many of us understand that the process of salvation is relational.
But as man as received Him, even believing in His name, to these God gave the right to be born again . . . (by anything we do) . . . born from God.

It's about receiving Jesus - He is risen, He is Lord, to use Paul's words - and then becoming God's child, spirit born from Spirit where before was only flesh. 100% agreed!

Much love!
 

CadyandZoe

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The novelist creates a story, but it's just that, a story, not an actual murder.

The novelist determined that a murder would happen in his story, and therefore the ficticious murder did in fact come from the writer. But it's not a real murder.

Your analogy isn't analogous, it's apples and oranges.
Well, it's intended to be apples and oranges. :)

The analogy was suggested to me by a friend of mine, who was looking for an ordinary, commonplace example of transcendence. He wondered whether their might be a way to understand it. What is it really like to be over, above, outside of our existence?

The analogy illustrates the concept of transcendence. God is to the author as reality is to a novel. Just as the author can write himself into the novel, God can write himself into reality -- known as theophanies. In the same way that nothing exists and nothing happens in a book apart from the author, nothing exists and nothing happens in reality apart from the transcendent creator. Just as the characters of a novel can't know the author directly; God's creatures can't know him directly. Both real people and characters need a mediator or a representative from God in order to interact with God.

As it pertains to an author and characters in a novel, the author is real and the characters and story are fictional. As it pertains to God and reality, the people and events are real, God is more real.


The writer is the sole originator of his character's actions, having imagined them, and recorded his imaginations. Were God to create someone's life so that they are a murder, God did that, and let's not play word games.

Much love!
I understand. Even so, I was making two points. First, just as an author is not culpable for the evil actions of his characters, God is not culpable for he evil actions of those he creates. Second, just as characters in a novel serve the story; people in reality serve the story God is creating. Predestination is not simply to set the destiny of a person; it also set's the narrative of the person's life.

In other words, if God predestines that a particular man shall be saved, he predestines the man going forward at church, accepting Jesus into his heart, and confessing that Jesus is Lord. He predestines that the man will believe and keep on believing even when it is inconvenient to do so. He predestines that the man will suffer hardship and persecution and remain a believer. And so on. Predestination is the entire story of a man's (or woman's) life.
 

CadyandZoe

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Either God chooses for us to sin, making Him the responsible party, or a person chooses to sin, making them the responsible party.
Why can't it be both?
It is unreasonable to assert that God causes the sin, but is not responsible for the sin He causes.

Much love!
Is it unreasonable to assert than an author of a book causes the sin, but is not responsible for the sin he caused?
 

marks

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Yes, but Paul is going a step further. I agree with everything you just said, but in the Greek, Paul makes a further point. Not only are we "elect" because we are in him, but we are "in him" from the foundation of the world.
Show the math, if you please. I don't believe that is correct. Are you asserting pre-existance?

Much love!
 

marks

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Why can't it be both?
Then you are still ascribing sin to God, which is an oxymoron.

Is it unreasonable to assert than an author of a book causes the sin, but is not responsible for the sin he caused?
In the analogy of writing a story? It's not the same. If the writer of a story writes of a character commiting sin, there is no actually person doing that act, it is only the expression of someone showing what they imagine, for the purpose of telling whatever story it is they have thought up.

But to answer your question according to the way you are asking . . . if you cause something, are you responsible? I think that's all over the Bible, yes, in fact.

Much love!
 

CadyandZoe

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God didn’t have to save anyone, but he chose to.
I agree, but you also maintain that the term "election" indicates God's choice to save those who repent and believe. That isn't a real, valid choice for God. It isn't as if he could have chosen to save those who didn't repent and believe.

Instead, the term "election" indicates the creation of particular individuals for the purpose of mercy or wrath. God chose to Love Jacob and Hate Esau.
The Scriptures teach us, God loves mankind, giving His Son to die for us (John 3:16) not willing that any should perish (Romans 2:4-5); and so, it is God’s gracious intent and good pleasure to have mercy on all sinners (Romans 11:32) through the preaching of Gospel; so that, those believing in His Son may be saved.
You are discussing the topic of God's salvation in general terms. However, the idea of Election focuses on specific individuals whom God has chosen to save. The Bible refers to these individuals as "his holy ones," "his consecrated ones," "those whom he sanctified," and so on. Not everyone receives the born-again experience, as it is God who chooses whom to grant new life. The decision is not ours to make, but rather God's.
The Scriptures teach us that God graciously saves those who believe – the same faith Abraham had:
Yes, and he also picks who will believe.
 

marks

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First, just as an author is not culpable for the evil actions of his characters, God is not culpable for he evil actions of those he creates.
Again, separating cause from responsibility. It's a non-starter.

Gotta run!

Much love!
 

setst777

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As God’s word says below.

We have been Born Again ,not of perishable seed, which means what please someone?

"Perishable seed" is the physical sinful nature, the corruptible flesh and values a sinner lives for in this world, which leads to death.

We who believe in Lord Jesus through the preaching of the Word of God are the Children of Promise, born again by the Spirit to a living hope, an eternal inheritance that God promises those who love him.

But of imperishable seed, which means what please?

By faith in God through the preaching of His Word (Romans 10:15-17), obeying the truth (1 Peter 1:22), we are the Children of Promise whom the Spirit indwells (imperishable seed) as the pledge of an inheritance yet to come (Ephesians 1:13-14).

James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Through the Living and enduring word of God....which is His Living Spirit

Do you mean that the word of God is His Living Spirit? If so, I reply as follows:

The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit, not the Spirit himself (Hebrews 6:17). God's Word, if believed, leads us to faith in Christ Jesus (Romans 10:17). By this faith, we receive the Spirit (John 7:37-39).

, there is no other way that we can receive the Spiritual rebirth, except through His “Living “ word...as His word says below.

Hebrews 4:12
Audio Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

New Living Translation
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

English Standard Version
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Berean Standard Bible
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Berean Literal Bible
For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even as far as the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrows, and able to judge thethoughts and intentions of the heart.



1 Peter 1:23
Audio Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

New Living Translation
For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.

English Standard Version
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Berean Standard Bible
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Berean Literal Bible
having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God,

The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit, not the Spirit himself (Hebrews 6:17).

1 Peter 1:20-25
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
24 For, “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.” And {{{this is the word that was preached to you}}}.

Ephesians 5:25-26
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word
 

setst777

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Paul argues that we boast in a proven faith because we know that it will endure and our hope will not disappoint. (Romans 5:1-5) And Peter argues that those of us who have been born again to a living hope will be glorified at the return of Jesus Christ. James argues the same thing, telling his readers that those with a proven faith will be granted the crown of life.

No Scripture states that we boast in our faith. Paul wrote that we boast in "the hope of the glory of God."

Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained our access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

No Scripture teaches that born again Christians will remain faithful; in fact, as I have shown you before, Paul admonishes the Elect to remain faithful to inherit the promises.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

James teaches us of the Believers responsibility to remain faithful to inherit the Crown of Life.

James 1:12-16 (James instructing the Church) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him... 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

Lord Jesus teaches His disciples to always be careful, so they may be found worthy to stand before Him.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 36 Therefore, be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Revelation 3:11 (WEB) 11 Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Paul reminds his readers that salvation depends on the activity of the Spirit and our being given a new spirit in Romans 8

Romans 8:9-11
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

The essential characteristic of those whom God will grant eternal life is the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit will raise from the dead all those who have been given the spirit of Christ. This is a true statement. None of those who have been given the spirit of Christ will be lost. Period.

The guarantees that Spirit indwelt Christians have is dependent on them to remain diligent to walk by the Spirit who lives in them.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) [Written for Christians] 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, {{we}} have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) [Written for Christians] 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us,
{{{{who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.}}}}

Paul taught us that the indwelling Spirit will only give Eternal Life to the Christians who sows to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

The Spirit indwelt believers are admonished to live sanctified lives onto God, and that the Spirit indwelt believer who rejects this is rejecting God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Nonetheless, the term "foreknow" doesn't mean "look ahead in time." It means, "have a prior relationship with."

To know, is to have experiential knowledge, or at least knowledge of something.

To foreknow, is to have experiential knowledge ahead of time.

Not the way I mean "cause."

Your use of the word "cause" expresses very clearly what you mean.

------

CadyandZoe said: has caused us to be born again

CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.

God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

------


The Spirit indwells to give life only those who believe (John 7:37-39) through the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 10:17).

God elects to indwell and give life by His Spirit to those who believe.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.
 
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setst777

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You have misconstrued what Paul said. You have reframed his position in terms of actions we take, when Paul was not speaking about actions we take but qualities we possess.

Right. There was no need to respond to them because they don't nullify the work of the Spirit in the hearts of human beings. Are Christians exhorted to live according to the teachings of Jesus, to believe in him, and to trust his word? Yes. Some do, some don't and some fall away. Peter, James and Paul teach us why some will never fall away.

Yes, that is part of what fatalism means, but that is not all it means. Fatalism also says that it doesn't matter what we do because everything has already been decided. The Biblical view of determinism isn't fatalistic because it DOES matter what we do.

Why can't it be both?

The many Scriptures that I quoted to you were written to born again Christians, with frequent pronouns such as, "we," "us," "our," showing us that the warnings given includes the Apostolic Writers who wrote them; so, your entire argument is a rejection of God and His Word.
 
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setst777

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I agree, but you also maintain that the term "election" indicates God's choice to save those who repent and believe. That isn't a real, valid choice for God. It isn't as if he could have chosen to save those who didn't repent and believe.

Instead, the term "election" indicates the creation of particular individuals for the purpose of mercy or wrath. God chose to Love Jacob and Hate Esau.

You are discussing the topic of God's salvation in general terms. However, the idea of Election focuses on specific individuals whom God has chosen to save. The Bible refers to these individuals as "his holy ones," "his consecrated ones," "those whom he sanctified," and so on. Not everyone receives the born-again experience, as it is God who chooses whom to grant new life. The decision is not ours to make, but rather God's.

Yes, and he also picks who will believe.

The Spirit only indwells to give life those who believe first (John 7:37-39). You got it all backwards.

Before, you kept insisting that God does not pick or choose anyone, now you say God picks who will believe.

CadyandZoe said:
On the contrary, God is not a selector, he is a creator. God makes a priori decisions to harden or bless.
 
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amigo de christo

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Talking from my own personal experience...I was unable to believe the gospel, that was until God brought me to believe in Jesus, then he gifted me faith and he made Born Again...I initially believed in Jesus...but, no way could I believe ,have faith in Jesus, without the Spirit testifying with my spirit Gods truth...I have the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart, who indwells me permanently.....and the Holy Spirit is the only one who can bring me to understanding Gods word in the Spirit.

That is my opinion/ testimony and belief.
Rather odd that was quite similiar to mine . Oh i had heard the gospel at the age of four
at eight , at fourteen .
I did believe to a point it was true . But my heart was far far from him . and my desire
was for self and the pleasures of the flesh .
Now i did lip the gospel a few times during them lost days .
I even told an athiest , while i was in the marine corps , that if the failed to believe on JESUS the CHRIST
he would end up in hell .
LITTLE did i know had we died that night i would have had the far greater punishment .
I was lipping it , but man i was loving up that sin and heck i never prayed or anything .
For years it was like that . Me living for sin and pleasures .
Then one day on the thirtieth of may TWO THOUSAND and SIX
a stirring began , I Was changed and had a totally new desire . and man right into the bible iwent .
BIG difference between lip only and BEING BORN AGAIN . BIG DIFFERENCE .
GOD DID That . I DIDNT lead me to GOD , to the true CHRIST , HE DID
and a whole new heart with new desires that had the love of GOD shed upon it .
Talk about grace . For ye are saved by grace .........................
Well its time for me to go and praise and thank the LORD again for all that HE has done and continues to do .
LIFT those hands rita . IT BE LORD PRAISING and THANKING TIME IN THE BUILDING .
 

marks

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God is to the author as reality is to a novel.
The man in a novel is not a real person, and therefore does not act. He performs no actions, being merely a verbal representation of the mind and imaginations of the author. Therefore, if sin is being committed, it is being committing by the writer, due to the fact that the character is not even real.

Not to mention, the Bible is specific, that God does not sin, nor does He tempt man to sin.

Much love!
 
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