Final Authority and Final Canonization

makahiya117 · Jun 6, 2013

I wish to present my theory of final authority and final canonization,
not to doubtful disputation, envy, strive or contention
but in sincerity and love.

KJV Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,
but not to doubtful disputations.

KJV Philippians 1:15-17
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife . . .
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely . . .
17 But the other of love . . .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe
only the original manuscripts were given by inspiration of God.
There are no original manuscripts.
KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
not walking in craftiness,nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
but by manifestation of the truth commendingourselves
to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

#2. You cannot honestly say "the bible" or "all bibles"
are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian,
Latin, German, English, French, Spanish, etc. bibles
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#3. You cannot honestly say "the Greek N.T." or "all N.T. Greek texts"
are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#4. All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the 1611 KJV first edition.
The human finger prints (typographical errors, spelling errors,
missing words, etc.) further document the testaments and covenants
(records) between God and man. While the 1769 KJV Holy Bible
standardized spelling, corrected printer’s errors and is the select text today,
the text of the AV 1611 KJV first edition remains the principal canon authority
of Holy Scripture. There were no manuscript revisions of the 1611 KJV
until the 1881 RV (Revised Version), only spelling, measurements
and punctuation editions.
KJV For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:
but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

#5. God's words were given by inspiration of God.
KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:

#6. God predestined certain individuals to record the words of God.
KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
KJV Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.
KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

#7. God providentially preserved and canonized the words of scripture.
KJV The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace
of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
KJV Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

#8. Inspiration, predestination, providence and preservation
continued throughout final canonization (books and words)
and publication of scripture.
KJV For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me;
and they have received them, and have known surely that I came
out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
KJV Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

#9. The words of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
were divinely transmitted, infallible, infinite and eternal.
KJV Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God,
be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

#10. KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final authority
and final canonization (books and words). The dynamic Purified Text Theory
supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively
in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine,
billions of bibles and computational linguistics.

Angelina · Jun 7, 2013

Greetings makahiya117,
It's good to see a couple of KJVers here. Hows my friend bromatt?

Blessings!

Wormwood · Jun 8, 2013

1. You cannot honestly say that for 1600 years, people had no inspired NT.

2. You cannot honestly say that the English language holds the only inspired Bible version.

3. You cannot honestly say that the 200 year old Greek texts that were used to translate the KJV were more reliable than the thousands of Greek texts we have found that date as over a thousand years earlier.

4. You cannot honestly say that the Kings English of the 1600s provides a more accurate understanding of what the inspired authors wrote than the actual language in which they wrote.

I could write 100 more of these, but what's the point...

jiggyfly · Jun 8, 2013

The OP is indeed giving their honest opinion and makes it that much more ludicrous. :lol:

Sammy · Jun 8, 2013

I'm not sure what this topic is really about. Are you trying to say that only the King James Version of the Bible is authorized by God and that no others will do?

Personally I love the King James Version, but as with any of the Bibles, we know that there are errors in translation and copying. I know some people like to think that the Bible is a perfect record and some even go as far as to say it's written by the hand of God, but these are the very same people that pay a preacher to tell them what the scripture contains.
The KJV is good, but it is what it is... a version of many versions out there. I see no reason why King James and his workers would be any more enlightened than other scholars in figuring out languages.

The Bible, through all its translations and reconfigurations is sort of in a mess right now. It isn't going to take more scholars and archeologists finding older copies to fix it, it would take men who are like men who wrote the thing, mainly apostles or prophets with the spirit of God. Otherwise, we are stuck with the conflicting accounts of the resurrection, or Paul's conflicting stories, etc. But they do the job, they prove the reality of the gospel of Christ.

makahiya117 · Jun 11, 2013

Wormwood said:
1. You cannot honestly say that for 1600 years, people had no inspired NT.

2. You cannot honestly say that the English language holds the only inspired Bible version.

3. You cannot honestly say that the 200 year old Greek texts that were used to translate the KJV were more reliable than the thousands of Greek texts we have found that date as over a thousand years earlier.

4. You cannot honestly say that the Kings English of the 1600s provides a more accurate understanding of what the inspired authors wrote than the actual language in which they wrote.

I could write 100 more of these, but what's the point...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[SIZE=14pt]1. All scripture is given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]for instruction in righteousness: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]2. You do not understand the Purified Text Theory.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV Psalms 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1. O.T. Hebrew Original Autographs 1500 B.C. - 389 B.C. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2. O.T. Aramaic Original Autographs, Daniel 2:4 - 7:28 607 B.C., [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3. N.T. Koine Greek Original Autographs 40 A.D. - 90 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4. Old Syrian Texts 100 A.D. - 200 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]5. Old Latin Texts 100 A.D. - 200 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]6. Reformation German Texts 1500 A.D. - 1560 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]7. Reformation English Texts 1382 A.D. - 1611 A.D. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]#3. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]only the original manuscripts were given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There are no original manuscripts.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]not walking in craftiness,nor handling the word of God deceitfully;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]but by manifestation of the truth commendingourselves[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]to every man's conscience in the sight of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]#4. You cannot honestly say "the bible" or "all bibles"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]are given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Latin, German, English, French, Spanish, etc. bibles[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]#5. You cannot honestly say "the Greek N.T." or "all N.T. Greek texts"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]are given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]6. The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final authority[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]and final canonization (books and words). The dynamic Purified Text Theory[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]billions of bibles and computational linguistics.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]7. State your theory of final canonization.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.[/SIZE]

Wormwood · Jun 11, 2013

makahiya117 said:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[SIZE=14pt]1. All scripture is given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]for instruction in righteousness: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]2. You do not understand the Purified Text Theory.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV Psalms 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]1. O.T. Hebrew Original Autographs 1500 B.C. - 389 B.C. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]2. O.T. Aramaic Original Autographs, Daniel 2:4 - 7:28 607 B.C., [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]3. N.T. Koine Greek Original Autographs 40 A.D. - 90 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]4. Old Syrian Texts 100 A.D. - 200 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]5. Old Latin Texts 100 A.D. - 200 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]6. Reformation German Texts 1500 A.D. - 1560 A.D. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]7. Reformation English Texts 1382 A.D. - 1611 A.D. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]#3. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]only the original manuscripts were given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There are no original manuscripts.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]not walking in craftiness,nor handling the word of God deceitfully;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]but by manifestation of the truth commendingourselves[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]to every man's conscience in the sight of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]#4. You cannot honestly say "the bible" or "all bibles"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]are given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Latin, German, English, French, Spanish, etc. bibles[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]#5. You cannot honestly say "the Greek N.T." or "all N.T. Greek texts"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]are given by inspiration of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]6. The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final authority[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]and final canonization (books and words). The dynamic Purified Text Theory[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]billions of bibles and computational linguistics.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]7. State your theory of final canonization.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.[/SIZE]

1. Yes, lets look at that text. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God." Thus, Scripture is not translated by inspiration of God, but is "given." Peter says that men wrote as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. This has to do with the author who was inspired in writing the text. Thus, our aim is to strive to understand as closely as possible what the original authors wrote.

2. You have a real knack for taking Scripture out of context. To suggest that Psalm 12 was written in mind of the KJV being produced thousands of years later is laughable. Moreover, anyone can create their own categories and lump them together in whatever number they want to try to form the number "7." You make it sound like archeologists found seven bundles of translations in the dirt throughout the years. This is not true. Moreover, even if it was true, this has nothing to do with the meaning of that verse in Psalm 12. This is pure silliness.

3. What does this bible verse have to do with your plea for the KJV as the only inspired text? Nothing. There were original manuscripts that were given by inspiration from God. We have so many early copies that are about 96% exact (and most of the difference deals with minor spelling and grammatical errors). Thus we have an extremely high degree of certainty as to what the original authors wrote. This argument is like me trying to say that your KJV is not inspired because it is a later reproduction and not the "original" copy that was first printed. We know what they wrote because the copies are the same...even a liberal textual critic would affirm that we have very little variance in our plethora of manuscripts, uncials and parchments.

4. None of your arguments actually support the KJV other than your laughable translation of Psalm 12. You are only trying to undermine other texts. This does not prove the KJV is the lone inspired text. However, your claims are overstated. There will obviously be some differences as a message is translated into different languages. They do not have different doctrines, although some translators try to connect some dots as sometimes the Greek text is vague. So, if you want to prove your claim you need to 1) show why the KJV is the only inspired text and 2) explain why God would choose to not allow his word to be inspired in any other language (since translating it would certainly involve some variance as one language cannot exactly match another...and apparently in your mind any variance means imperfection).

5. Im not saying all Greek texts are given by inspiration from God. I'm saying the original autographs of the NT were in Greek and the early copies we have are incredibly similar and give us a very high degree of certainty as to what the autographs contained. Thus, the Greek texts help us to not only more accurately know what Paul, John, Luke and others wrote, but communicate that message in the very same language that they communicated it in. So we can know not only what they wrote but what it would have sounded like in its original writing without all the variance that comes from moving it from one language to another.

6. There is no such thing as "The Record Theory." There is no Biblical scholar I have ever read or searched that speaks of such a theory. The only internet hits on such a theory is something you have splattered all over the internet in chat forums (but no scholarly publications). In every place you speak of "The Record Theory" you fail to ever mention what the theory actually contains. To me it sounds like a theory that has been formed to make this ridiculous crusade of yours sound like it has scholarly support.

7. My theory of final canonization is the same theory that the church has been using throughout its history. After all, it was the church in the 300s that officially formed the NT canon and apparently they figured they had reliable enough documents (that they spilled their blood over) to form such a canon. According to you, they were wasting their time. So if you're going to make this claim about the KJV, follow the direction of the verse you quoted and "prove all things." Don't just make claims and attach theories to it that have no verifiable substance.

PeterAV · Jun 11, 2013

Great post Makahya 117!
*******
Did you notice the fake argument against your post by Wormwood?
Here is one of his faked up STRAW MAN points to make it LOOK like he might have a point.
*******
"1. Yes, lets look at that text. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God." Thus, Scripture is not translated by inspiration of God,..."
*******
He forgot that the Bible itself contains translation. How about Moses talking with Pharoh, and in Daniel and the New Testament.. look at the New Testament quoting OT verses. He is assuming that a translation can't possibly be the pure words of God. Egg all over his face.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
Wormwood does not think so, though.

Selene · Jun 11, 2013

makahiya117 said:
I wish to present my theory of final authority and final canonization,
not to doubtful disputation, envy, strive or contention
but in sincerity and love.

KJV Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,
but not to doubtful disputations.

KJV Philippians 1:15-17
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife . . .
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely . . .
17 But the other of love . . .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1. You cannot honestly state you have scripture if you believe
only the original manuscripts were given by inspiration of God.
There are no original manuscripts.
KJV But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
not walking in craftiness,nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
but by manifestation of the truth commendingourselves
to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

#2. You cannot honestly say "the bible" or "all bibles"
are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian,
Latin, German, English, French, Spanish, etc. bibles
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#3. You cannot honestly say "the Greek N.T." or "all N.T. Greek texts"
are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.

#4. All KJV Holy Bibles are editions of the 1611 KJV first edition.
The human finger prints (typographical errors, spelling errors,
missing words, etc.) further document the testaments and covenants
(records) between God and man. While the 1769 KJV Holy Bible
standardized spelling, corrected printer’s errors and is the select text today,
the text of the AV 1611 KJV first edition remains the principal canon authority
of Holy Scripture. There were no manuscript revisions of the 1611 KJV
until the 1881 RV (Revised Version), only spelling, measurements
and punctuation editions.
KJV For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:
but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

#5. God's words were given by inspiration of God.
KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:

#6. God predestined certain individuals to record the words of God.
KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
KJV Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.
KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

#7. God providentially preserved and canonized the words of scripture.
KJV The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace
of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
KJV Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

#8. Inspiration, predestination, providence and preservation
continued throughout final canonization (books and words)
and publication of scripture.
KJV For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me;
and they have received them, and have known surely that I came
out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
KJV Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

#9. The words of the AV 1611 KJV Holy Bible
were divinely transmitted, infallible, infinite and eternal.
KJV Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God,
be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

#10. KJV Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
The Record Theory independently answers the questions of final authority
and final canonization (books and words). The dynamic Purified Text Theory
supports the Record Theory, demonstrated categorically and conclusively
in the manuscript evidence, bible canonization, bible doctrine,
billions of bibles and computational linguistics.

And where did you think the KJV got it's translation from? What manuscripts did they use when all of the original manuscripts are lost and all you have are copies of copies of copies? What were the Christians using for 1600 years BEFORE the KJV was written and published?? As for those who wrote the KJV, what authority did they have and how do you know that their authority is true and genuine? Would you trust these very same people to have the authority to INTERPRET Scripture?? Or do you think your interpretation of scripture should be trusted more than those who wrote the KJV? And for your information, if you look at the very FIRST KJV Bible that was published, it actually had books in there that you now call "apocrypha." So, which KJV Bible do you trust.....the very FIRST one that was published, which included the apocrypha or the later version that took out the apocrypha....and why??

Wormwood · Jun 11, 2013

PeterAV said:
Great post Makahya 117!
*******
Did you notice the fake argument against your post by Wormwood?
Here is one of his faked up STRAW MAN points to make it LOOK like he might have a point.
*******
"1. Yes, lets look at that text. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God." Thus, Scripture is not translated by inspiration of God,..."
*******
He forgot that the Bible itself contains translation. How about Moses talking with Pharoh, and in Daniel and the New Testament.. look at the New Testament quoting OT verses. He is assuming that a translation can't possibly be the pure words of God. Egg all over his face.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
Wormwood does not think so, though.

Peter, you obviously do not get my point. My point is the opposite. I do believe that translations are God's word. However, they are God's word in as much as they reflect the original inspired authors message. Makahya is the one who is arguing that no Bibles are God's word except the KJV which itself is a translation of Erasmus' Greek text. Makahya is the one claiming that only one particular translation can be God's word...which by some strange rationale just happens to be his favorite in his own language, the KJV. The word of God is not given through divine translation, but by the inspiration of the original authors. I just happen to believe that most translations carry that same message and Spirit as they closely reflect the original. You probably would have picked this up if you had read all of my comments.

Robertson · Jun 13, 2013

Selene said:
What were the Christians using for 1600 years BEFORE the KJV was written and published??

I think this is an excellent point Selene. What were the Christians using? Up until they time of Constantine, there was no Bible. The apostles were obviously visiting the churches that they started and writing letters to them while they were away. They were sending missionary companions to teach and remind them of what the true doctrine of Christianity was. They tried to combat false teachings that were creeping in and to continue building faith, but there was no Bible. Not until the 4th century when Constantine organized a form of Christianity to fight and fund his wars was any attempt made to canonize the writings. So his men met in councils and debated which writings to put into this Bible and so we have what we have today from this. Mainly, a few of the writings of the apostles - certainly not ALL. Sadly, like you said, the Apocrypha is taken out of most Christian bibles because when people alter the gospel to fit their needs they then must remove parts that now would contradict their false beliefs.

mjrhealth · Jun 14, 2013

And some where in all the translations, God, Jesus and teh Holy Spirit got left out, replaced by words in a book and mens understanding, never willing to go to the one who is the truth Jesus, so they can have life, for they prefer the " dead letter" which cannot give one live.

In all His Love

Angelina · Jun 16, 2013

One of the pressing questions that I wanted to ask an IFB...Why they think that the KJV1611 is the final authority of God's word when their forefather's - the pilgrims and puritans, came to America with the Geneva bible? :huh:

"The Anglican Church’s King James Bible took decades to overcome the more popular Protestant Church’s Geneva Bible. One of the greatest ironies of history, is that many Protestant Christian churches today embrace the King James Bible exclusively as the “only” legitimate English language translation… yet it is not even a Protestant translation! It was printed to compete with the Protestant Geneva Bible, by authorities who throughout most of history were hostile to Protestants… and killed them. While many Protestants are quick to assign the full blame of persecution to the Roman Catholic Church, it should be noted that even after England broke from Roman Catholicism in the 1500’s, the Church of England (The Anglican Church) continued to persecute Protestants throughout the 1600’s. One famous example of this is John Bunyan, who while in prison for the crime of preaching the Gospel, wrote one of Christian history’s greatest books, Pilgrim’s Progress. Throughout the 1600’s, as the Puritans and the Pilgrims fled the religious persecution of England to cross the Atlantic and start a new free nation in America, they took with them their precious Geneva Bible, and rejected the King’s Bible. America was founded upon the Geneva Bible, not the King James Bible.

Protestants today are largely unaware of their own history, and unaware of the Geneva Bible (which is textually 95% the same as the King James Version, but 50 years older than the King James Version, and not influenced by the Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament that the King James translators admittedly took into consideration). Nevertheless, the King James Bible turned out to be an excellent and accurate translation, and it became the most printed book in the history of the world, and the only book with one billion copies in print. In fact, for over 250 years...until the appearance of the English Revised Version of 1881-1885...the King James Version reigned without much of a rival. One little-known fact, is that for the past 200 years, all King James Bibles published in America are actually the 1769 Baskerville spelling and wording revision of the 1611. The original “1611” preface is deceivingly included by the publishers, and no mention of the fact that it is really the 1769 version is to be found, because that might hurt sales. The only way to obtain a true, unaltered, 1611 version is to either purchase an original pre-1769 printing of the King James Bible, or a less costly facsimile reproduction of the original 1611 King James Bible."

http://www.greatsite...-bible-history/

Wormwood · Jun 16, 2013

mjrhealth said:
And some where in all the translations, God, Jesus and teh Holy Spirit got left out, replaced by words in a book and mens understanding, never willing to go to the one who is the truth Jesus, so they can have life, for they prefer the " dead letter" which cannot give one live.

In all His Love

Not sure what this has to do with the OP
Angelina,

Thats true. America's nations founders were not to fond of anything that had to do with King James or any other king. They wanted a government of the people.

Mungo · Jun 17, 2013

Robertson said:
I think this is an excellent point Selene. What were the Christians using? Up until they time of Constantine, there was no Bible. The apostles were obviously visiting the churches that they started and writing letters to them while they were away. They were sending missionary companions to teach and remind them of what the true doctrine of Christianity was. They tried to combat false teachings that were creeping in and to continue building faith, but there was no Bible. Not until the 4th century when Constantine organized a form of Christianity to fight and fund his wars was any attempt made to canonize the writings. So his men met in councils and debated which writings to put into this Bible and so we have what we have today from this. Mainly, a few of the writings of the apostles - certainly not ALL. Sadly, like you said, the Apocrypha is taken out of most Christian bibles because when people alter the gospel to fit their needs they then must remove parts that now would contradict their false beliefs.

There were disputes as to which books to use after Constantine. The Council of Niceae (325) questioned to canonicity of James, 2 Peter, 2John, 3John and Jude.

The list of NT books we have today was proposed by Athanasius in 367 and adopted by the Synod of Rome in 382 (Decree of Damasus), and confirmed by the Councils of Hippo (393), Carthage (397) and Carthage again in 419. It was nothing to do with Constantine.

marksman · Jun 18, 2013

A couple of thoughts which may be right or wrong depending on your perspective on things.

It doesn't matter which translation you use as you can read the word of God and still not understand it. For it in any version to have authority, we need the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of what we are reading.

The scriptures say that it is the Holy Spirit which will lead us into all truth. The reason why so many churches are in error, is due to the fact that the Holy Spirit is not welcome. Without him, you CANNOT know the truth.

You can read the King James or any version and still get it wrong. For example, where does it say anywhere in the New Testament that the church invited someone from another church to come and take over the leadership and be paid a salary for doing so?

The simple answer is zero. zilch but that doesn't stop the church doing that so it means they don't want to know the truth or that the Holy Spirit is absent from the church.

Wormwood · Jun 18, 2013

marksman said:
A couple of thoughts which may be right or wrong depending on your perspective on things.

It doesn't matter which translation you use as you can read the word of God and still not understand it. For it in any version to have authority, we need the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of what we are reading.

The scriptures say that it is the Holy Spirit which will lead us into all truth. The reason why so many churches are in error, is due to the fact that the Holy Spirit is not welcome. Without him, you CANNOT know the truth.

You can read the King James or any version and still get it wrong. For example, where does it say anywhere in the New Testament that the church invited someone from another church to come and take over the leadership and be paid a salary for doing so?

The simple answer is zero. zilch but that doesn't stop the church doing that so it means they don't want to know the truth or that the Holy Spirit is absent from the church.

So when do we know when the Spirit is invited? When someone listens to you? Those who accept the teaching of the NT are accepting the Holy Spirit and His testimony about Jesus. Period. The ways people try to split up the Trinity is baffling to me. Someone accepts the truth about Jesus as taught in the Bible by the Apostles but not the Holy Spirit? Show me that in Scripture.

Yeah, the Apostle Paul, Timothy, Barnabus, Silas, Titus and others never went to other churches with an authoritative role did they? Paul didnt say that a worker was worth his wages did he? Oh wait...actually we do see that. Moreoever, not only do we see that, but we live in a vastly different age and culture. In the Gospel there is freedom to worship and develop leaders and teachers. To suggest that because a church invites a minister to come and supports that minister financially so they can give their full time to teaching and discipleship is a sign that they do not accept the Holy Spirit is utter nonsense.

If the Holy Spirit is absent, it would be in this highly accusative and condemning post regarding the majority of Christ's bride and leaders who commit to full time ministry through the gifts of the church. Doesnt look like a fruit of the Spirit to me.

makahiya117 · Jun 19, 2013

Angelina said:
One of the pressing questions that I wanted to ask an IFB...Why they think that the KJV1611 is the final authority of God's word when their forefather's - the pilgrims and puritans, came to America with the Geneva bible? :huh:

"The Anglican Church’s King James Bible took decades to overcome the more popular Protestant Church’s Geneva Bible. One of the greatest ironies of history, is that many Protestant Christian churches today embrace the King James Bible exclusively as the “only” legitimate English language translation… yet it is not even a Protestant translation! It was printed to compete with the Protestant Geneva Bible, by authorities who throughout most of history were hostile to Protestants… and killed them. While many Protestants are quick to assign the full blame of persecution to the Roman Catholic Church, it should be noted that even after England broke from Roman Catholicism in the 1500’s, the Church of England (The Anglican Church) continued to persecute Protestants throughout the 1600’s. One famous example of this is John Bunyan, who while in prison for the crime of preaching the Gospel, wrote one of Christian history’s greatest books, Pilgrim’s Progress. Throughout the 1600’s, as the Puritans and the Pilgrims fled the religious persecution of England to cross the Atlantic and start a new free nation in America, they took with them their precious Geneva Bible, and rejected the King’s Bible. America was founded upon the Geneva Bible, not the King James Bible.

Protestants today are largely unaware of their own history, and unaware of the Geneva Bible (which is textually 95% the same as the King James Version, but 50 years older than the King James Version, and not influenced by the Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament that the King James translators admittedly took into consideration). Nevertheless, the King James Bible turned out to be an excellent and accurate translation, and it became the most printed book in the history of the world, and the only book with one billion copies in print. In fact, for over 250 years...until the appearance of the English Revised Version of 1881-1885...the King James Version reigned without much of a rival. One little-known fact, is that for the past 200 years, all King James Bibles published in America are actually the 1769 Baskerville spelling and wording revision of the 1611. The original “1611” preface is deceivingly included by the publishers, and no mention of the fact that it is really the 1769 version is to be found, because that might hurt sales. The only way to obtain a true, unaltered, 1611 version is to either purchase an original pre-1769 printing of the King James Bible, or a less costly facsimile reproduction of the original 1611 King James Bible."

http://www.greatsite...-bible-history/

John Alden brought a KJV Bible to America on the Mayflower.

John Wheelright quoted from a KJV Bible in a 1636 sermon.

Noah Webster collated the spoken English language
and produced his famous dictionary. Language is word definition.

Webster's dictionary is a monumental contribution to the English language.
Webster's 1828 dictionary matched the KJV Holy Bibles.
The computational linguistics conclusively supports the Purified Text Theory
and the Record Theory. This simple historical fact clearly demonstrates
the obvious source of American language.

Angelina · Jun 19, 2013

I appreciate your reply but I am to hunt down these random names that I have never heard of before to find the answer? I was hoping for more... :unsure:

Thanks

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