Ernest T. Bass said:
I agree with you on cessationism Ernest T. Bass.
(except for the late dating of Revelation)
Poppin
Faith Healing
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I agree with you on cessationism Ernest T. Bass.
(except for the late dating of Revelation)
Poppin
No, the word perfect means:Ernest T. Bass said:
I. brought to its end, finished
II. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
III. perfect
IV. that which is perfect
A.consummate human integrity and virtue
B.of men
i.full grown, adult, of full age, mature
There is no mention of the completion of the word of God in the definition of perfect. As I said, it is nothing more than an extra-biblical theory.
Which disproves your point entirely.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Paul is contrast that which is 'in part" to that which is "perfect" so perfect would mean whole, complete....wanting nothing, finishedUppsalaDragby said:
Eph 4 does prove my point.
Paul said that the manifestation of the Spirit to each one for the profit of all (1Cor.12:7). You are going to tell us that the gift of healing was profitable only for the confirming of the word? The person healed was merely lucky enough to have lived in that time frame? The rest of God's children are outa luck? Sorry, my friend. I will continue to pray in tongues as long as the ability remains in me. I have both seen and been used in several of the gifts of the Spirit. My testimony and that of millions of others...are invalid? Just because you don't have the same testimony? I am sorry that this subject puts this kind of division among God's people. But in my own case, when I was seeking proof of God's reality, I suppose I needed to see some supernatural evidence. I am glad that God was kind enough to show me some, and then to confirm my request for the Holy Spirit by allowing me to experience the gift of tongues. Not to mention that I can feel His presence within my body even to this day...34 years later. Let all things be done for the edification of the saints.Ernest T. Bass said:
So? Eventually we will all be changed and come "face to face" with our Lord and saviour. At that time we will be made perfect.Ernest T. Bass said:
Now did Paul predict anything that would bring unity and fullness of knowledge after his departure? No, he predicted the exact opposite:
"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:29-30)
The only positive thing that Paul predicted would occur beyond that was the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints.
Since we all obviously haven't reached unity, Eph 4 definitely disproves your point.
@ Tropical InsiderMadad21 said:
Hey, I'm sorry for any past experience you've had with doctors. It's just that when I see people die for no real reason it upsets me, and I wasn't sensitive to your personal past.
Is that what I said?snr5557 said:
Read what I said in the post carefully, why do you think I give you that scripture from James.
Its not just this thread but many others you have started, you take a cynical veiw of spiritual things because you lack wisdom.
The reason you lack wisdom is because you dont know scripture.
If you dont know scripture then you can not understand Christ or the things of God.
You are trying to argue against things of the spirit with a worldview.
Im not being nasty, I am being honest with you because I like you as a brother (or sister)
If you want to know some easy ways of studying your Bible even online just PM me and I dont mind giving you some handy tips to get things started. You may find your opinions changing as Christ talks to you through his word.
Your not going to get the answers you require from picking out the opinions you agree with on an open forum.
You never know you could be a great theologian.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
(Psalm 111:10)
Peace and grace
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Mk 16:20 "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."williemac said:
There is no tongue speaking today. The unintelligible utterances as done by some today is NOT miraculous nor is it as the known eartly tongues as spoken miraculously by the apostles in Acts 2.
Not directly,I thought that's what you were supporting. Those parents didn't want to take their children to the doctor because to them it was like doubting God. When you said that is was cynical of me to not believe in prayer (which I actually do, just along with medicine) I thought you believed what those other parents believed. If that's not true I'm sorry for misinterpreting.Madad21 said:
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Unity of the faith of Eph 4 has nothing to do with people's personal beliefs. "THE FAITH" is a reference to the NT system of faith as taught from Matthew to Revelation. Gal 1:23 Paul preached THE FAITH, that is, Paul preach that NT system of faith. Paul did NOT preach A faith but preached THE faith the ONE faith of Eph 4:5.UppsalaDragby said:
Once the church had access to all of God’s written Word, the means by which the Word was given (i.e., miraculous gifts) would be obsolete, useless, and therefore “put away” (13:11). Notice that in this illustration, Paul likened miracles to “childish things” (13:11). In other words, miracles were the spiritual equivalents of pacifiers that were necessary while the church was in a state of infancy. Now that the church has access to “all truth” (John 16:13), the use of tongue-speaking and other miraculous enhancements in the church today would be comparable to an adult man or woman sucking on a pacifier!
Paul then explained his point by making a contrast between the initial necessity of miracles to reveal and confirm God’s Word, and the idea of looking through a clouded mirror (see Workman, 1983, p. 8). Once the entire contents of the New Testament had been revealed, the miraculous gifts no longer would be necessary. Having all of God’s revealed Word would enable one to be face to face with that Word rather than “looking through a clouded mirror,” i.e., having partial access. Paul wrote (13:11): “Now I know in part [i.e., my knowledge of God’s revelation is incomplete and partial due to limited access via the miraculous element—DM], but then [i.e., when all of God’s Word is revealed—DM] shall I know fully even as also I was fully known [i.e., I shall be made to know or taught thoroughly (which is the figure of speech known as heterosis of the verb in which the intransitive is put for the transitive—see Bullinger, 1898, p. 512)—DM].” By Dave Miller, Ph.D
http://apologeticspress.com/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1399
Miraculous signs are equivalent to scaffolding. Scaffolding is used to construct a building but once the building is perfected/completed/finished the scaffolding is taken away. Likewise signs were used in "constructing" the NT and once it was perfected/completed/finished the signs were taken away as Paul said in 1 Cor 13.
Furthermore, John wrote "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." Jn 20:30,31
It is an important point that John wrote those signs down for us today to read. The verb phrase "are written" is perfect tense denoting an act done in the past with a continuing effect. In other words, those signs John wrote down still have a continuing effect to induce a belief in people today as they did 2000+ years ago when they were actually performed. Therefore since 1) John wrote those signs down, and 2) those signs can continue to induce a belief in people that read them, then 3) there is no reason for those signs to be repeated today. This is why no one today can raise the dead, walk on water, feed a multitude with just a basket of food, etc. So if one today wants to believe in miracles, he can believe those performed by Jesus that John wrote down. For one to say we need miraculous sins today goes against the very reason John wrote then down.
It's one thing to listen to a lot of fake tongues and as a result think all gifts have ceased. I would easly be able to follow that notion.
However, to assume that Jesus Christ that saves, does not also heal is completely irrational. Why would anyone believe such a thing? It's just an opinion, and not a very good one either. The concept is just not supported by scripture.
"Healing ministries" can be confusing - ignore them. You don't go a healing ministry, you go to the Lord by faith in prayer.
My daughter for example developed pain in both legs one day as a child, couldn't walk without pain, and both legs started to grow in a slightly deformed way. My wife was a very new believer at that time, so we went to the doctors instead. They all said they know how to call that disease, but could'nt actually do something about it. My wife gave up, the women by themselves all prayed together in that spirit of brokeness where you do not hope anymore on any worldly solution.
Next day we were all in shock, because my daughter was completely healed. Praise the Lord! And the pain nor the symptons and deformations ever came back until today. Once you see mighty works of God like this, it basically ends your ability to view all of it in any abstract theological way. We do not serve a powerless God.
However, to assume that Jesus Christ that saves, does not also heal is completely irrational. Why would anyone believe such a thing? It's just an opinion, and not a very good one either. The concept is just not supported by scripture.
"Healing ministries" can be confusing - ignore them. You don't go a healing ministry, you go to the Lord by faith in prayer.
My daughter for example developed pain in both legs one day as a child, couldn't walk without pain, and both legs started to grow in a slightly deformed way. My wife was a very new believer at that time, so we went to the doctors instead. They all said they know how to call that disease, but could'nt actually do something about it. My wife gave up, the women by themselves all prayed together in that spirit of brokeness where you do not hope anymore on any worldly solution.
Next day we were all in shock, because my daughter was completely healed. Praise the Lord! And the pain nor the symptons and deformations ever came back until today. Once you see mighty works of God like this, it basically ends your ability to view all of it in any abstract theological way. We do not serve a powerless God.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The bible explains miraculous signs were for a certain time and purpose and that time and purpose has long passed. Not only does the bible say they have ceased there is no physical, objective proof they still exist today. With 24 hour news services, the internet, cell phones that take videos surely someone could post a video of a person walking on water, raising the dead, the hungry in the world feed with just a basket of food...but there's nothing. If one were raised from the dead it would be all over the tv news services, newspapers, the internet, everywhere...but there's nothing.Tropical Islander said:
Folks, one isn't showing a lack of faith by seeking the help of a physician.
Modern-day medicine (including surgery) is another of God's gifts to Mankind.
The fact that God can provide miraculous healing doesn't mean that He will always choose to provide miraculous healing.
Faith and modern-day medicine are not opposites. They can work together.
What the OP of this thread addresses is the practice of some adults of putting the LORD their God to the test by refusing to seek available medical treatment.
Modern-day medicine (including surgery) is another of God's gifts to Mankind.
The fact that God can provide miraculous healing doesn't mean that He will always choose to provide miraculous healing.
Faith and modern-day medicine are not opposites. They can work together.
What the OP of this thread addresses is the practice of some adults of putting the LORD their God to the test by refusing to seek available medical treatment.
I'm not a "charismatic" but your understanding here is even less biblical. All scriptures are for today, or they wouldn't be included at all.Ernest T. Bass said:
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Hope you are able to perceive that there is a common theme to all 3 scriptures? It's all written "to them" that believe.
Ernest, if you are going to defend "the faith" then you need to do a much better job than that. You are simply making assertions without providing scriptural support for the assertions themselves (providing verses is not enough). For example, where does scripture itself claim that "faith is a reference to the NT system"? And what makes you think you can concoct your own defintions for what the Bible already has defined? Faith, according to Hebrews 11, is "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" and clearly involves people - what they believed and what they did. Unity of the faith is being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose, and, most obviously, not having the kind of denominational mindset that the Corinthians were guilty of as Paul described it in 1 Cor 1:10.Ernest T. Bass said:
Your argument is also self-defeating. You point out that in Eph 4 Paul was making an appeal to the members of these churches to pursue unity, while at the same time claiming that it would only come after scripture was canonized. Paul believed at the time he wrote to the Corinthians that adhering to scripture was sufficient to prevent divisive thinking:
"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" (1 Cor 4:6-7)
Today, the Christians chuch is riddled with divisions. Just as Paul predicted, destructive heresies infiltrated the church, replacing the gifts of the spirit, which were given to the church to establish unity, for doctrines based on human effort. Cessationism is a perfect example of this in that it rejects the gifts, not through the use of sound doctrine, but by "going beyond what is written".
So according to you childish and worldly behaviour disappeared from the church after the book of Revelation was complete? Is that it?
Ernest, I'm sorry, but I neither read nor use extra-biblical references. I am non-denominational and have taken as much care as possible to stick to scripture and aviod the doctrines of men, so if you want to make a point here then please confine your arguments to scripture.
That is another nice theory, but the gifts of the spirit were never described as "scaffolding", not in 1 Cor 13, nor anywhere else in scripture. The only perfecter of faith mentioned in scripture is Christ himself, you know, the one we will eventually see face to face. Nowhere does Paul or any of the other NT authors predict perfection through canonization. As I have pointed out several times now, this is an extra-biblcal theory that goes beyond what is written.
I say to you the same thing that I say to SDAs and other people who cannot confine their assertions to scripture, but need to add things that are not there. I base my core beliefs on what is scripture as it stands. why can't you?
Why resort to self-defeating logic rather than using scripture itself? If simply writing about the signs was enough to do the trick then why wasn't the gospel of John written before Paul wasted time encouraging the church to employ the gifts of the spirit? If it was sufficient to induce belief then why were the other books even included? You see, you are just tying yourself into theological knots that don't even make sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRoAcfzytCAErnest T. Bass said:
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
"The faith" is a common phrase found in the bible talking about the faith of the NT, that ONE faith, Eph 4:5.UppsalaDragby said:
Paul said unity of THE faith and NOT unity of your various personal faiths. Again, Paul went about preaching THE FAITH and NOT preaching people's various faiths. Jude said to contend for THE FAITH not contend for A faith or contend for your personal faiths.
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith" You have yet to prove Paul is talking about personal faithS.
1 Cor 13:10,11 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
Context shows the 'childish thing' is a reference to those signs used to bring about the complete/perfect revealed word of God. You have not proven otherwise and Paul said nothing about 'worldly behavior' here as you try and change the context. The context is about the piece by piece revelation of the word of God done by signs and that when the revealed word of God was complete/perfect those signs would cease as they would have served their purpose and no longer needed.
1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
When Paul penned this Corinthian epistle God's word had not been perfected/completed thereby they were seeing through a glass darkly. But once it was perfected/completely revealed tehn God's word can be seen clearly, face to face. Again, you have provided no proof or evidence to the contrary.
You posted "I say to you the same thing that I say to SDAs and other people who cannot confine their assertions to scripture"
Yet it has not gone unnoticed that it is YOU who has not provided one scripture to refute anything I have said. Just saying "Ernest T Bass is wrong" is not proof of anything. I have provided you with scripture yet you reject them for they go against your personal beliefs.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
If Paul here is not talking about the cessation of miraculous gifts when the word of God was "perfected" and not just in part, then explain and PROVE to us what Paul is talking about.
Your video proves nothing, only unsubstantiated claims. What proof is there the man was dead? It is not unusual for people to be resuscitated after heart attacks, drownings, etc. Did Jesus use shock paddles to raise Lazarus from the dead? Instead of shocking and resuscitating an unconscious person, why don't the good doctor go to a cemetery and raise one who actually is dead and embalmed?
There is no cure for death. ...."And as it is appointed unto men once to die" Will the "dead" man in the video die twice?
I have already proven that Paul is talking about personal faith here by giving you the biblical definition of the word and referring to the verses that follow. How else do you think unity in the faith can be achieved? As I pointed out Paul made an appeal to unity long before the NT was canonized so your argument fails. Why haven't you addressed this?Ernest T. Bass said:
Again, nowhere does scripture itself indicate that perfection comes with the completion of scripture nor that their knowledge was insufficient. On the contrary:
"For in him you have been enriched in every way — with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Cor 14:5-8)
Obviously Paul expected the spiritual gifts to be active until the day of the Lord.
I don't need to prove anything, you do. You are the one making the claim that the gifts were only to be in use until the Book of Revelation was written, something that neither Jesus nor any of the apostles taught. You take a few verses and claim that the "context" is telling us this is so, when the context doesn't even mention scripture. So why would I have to prove or disprove things that you say on your own authority?
You are making a huge assumption here. Where does God's word say that it was in an "imperfect" state? Where does it say that the gifts were given simply because the NT wasn't complete? Nothing that cessationists claim makes any sense. If tongues were a sign for "unbelievers" then what happened to that sign after canonization? What difference would canonization make for unbelievers? Please explain what you think was in the Book of Revelation that you think replaced the need for spiritual gifts.
Again, you haven't provided one single verse anywhere that supports your claims. So what exactly am I supposed to "refute"?
I have never claimed that Paul wasn't talking about the cessation of miraculous gifts, but I notice that you keep on insisting that the perfect that would come is the word of God, which, again, the verses you quote say nothing about, so there is nothing to prove.
I never said that it proves anything. I was simply respoding to your claim that "If one were raised from the dead it would be all over the tv news services, newspapers, the internet, everywhere...but there's nothing."
That actually does prove something, just as does obstinately changing your story after the fact rather than simply admit that you were wrong. Now it seems one has to provide a video showing someone coming out of their grave!
Did Lazarus die twice?
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You have not demonstrated Paul was talking about people's personal faith. When Paul preached the faith was he preaching the various faiths of individuals? No. He was preaching the ONE faith as taught in the NT, Eph 4:5 says "ONE faith". The NT teaches ONE FAITH not a multitude of faithS and when the NT was completely revealed then there was a oneness, wholeness, completeness of that ONE faith.UppsalaDragby said:
In 1 Cor 1:10 there was division for they were not all following that one faith. Paul was trying to get rid of the division and get the back to the one faith of the NT, the one faith in Christ.
Paul told the Corinthians to speak the same thing. Paul said in Rom 12:16 be of the same mind. Paul told the Philippians "that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind." Phl 2:2. Paul then tells them " let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing." Phl 3:16
Note the first century Christians, no matter where they were located, where to have the same mind, have a "like precious faith" as Peter said. Specifically Paul told them to "walk by the same rule" The Greek word for 'rule' is kanon meaning a rod, a standard by which things are measured. They were to follow that canon of NT scripture that had been given them by inspiration, i.e., they were to follow THE FAITH the ONE faith as the NT teaches and were not free to have their own personal, contradicting faiths. That canon of faith they were to walk by was completed when all of God's word was revealed.
"Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught" They were to be in THE FAITH which they were taught, as taught by the NT. There were not taught a faith or many faiths but "the faith" as found in the NT canon. "The" is a definite article, denoting one particular, specific faith.
Finally Jude said "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" THE FAITH which was once delivered. THE FAITH refers to the NT canon that was once delivered to them. So in Eph 4 "unity of the faith" is speaking of that entire canon of NT scripture that was once delivered. There will never be unity in what all men personally believe but there is a unity, oneness, wholeness, completeness of that NT canon of faith by which Christians are to walk.
Perfect in 1 Cor 13 KJV does not mean sinless perfection, but means to be completed, made whole, finished. Perfect is contrasted in the context to that which is "in part". In the context, what was "in part" was the NT canon, it was not yet completed when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians. They did not have the full, perfected, whole, finished word of God revealed to them yet, they were looking through a glass darkly as Paul said.
So God's word was "in part" meaning it was not perfected, not completed, not finished at this time. It was not imperfect in the sense of having errors or faults.
So 1 Cor 13 and Eph 4 still stand for you have misused, misunderstood the word "perfect" in 1 Cor 13 and do not understand what is meant by "the faith" in Eph 4. Again, Jude did not say contend for your own personal faith or contend for a faith but contend for the faith, the NT system of faith as taught in the canon of scripture by which they were to walk.
The video did not prove a miracle took place, so we still are where we were at before with there being no objective, scientifically proven case of anyone today being raised from the dead. And the Hebrew writer was not wrong. Men are appointed once to die. Men is used to speak generically of mankind. Naturally men do die once which is what the Hebrew writer speaks of, it is not referring to the supernatural. People today naturally die once for there is no supernatural, miraculous raising from the dead taking place. Jesus walking on water back then does not mean men today can defy laws of gravity supernaturally.
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