The messiah didn't come yet.

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Eliyahu613

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It is in the New Testament. Thus, you can't ever disprove J-man's flesh resurrection. We can say it was a good thing, and that your barkochbas/failed messiah didn't need this prophecy. You don't have any prediction that have come true after Rome's first war with Israel, or perhaps just Judah.
Bs"d

The NT is written after the death of JC. So those supposed NT prophecies are written after the fact. And that of course disqualifies them as prophecies. Prophecies are about thing to happen in the future, not in the past.

And we have very strong predictions coming true, even until this day. See here: Sign
 
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rockytopva

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Dear Sir:

Time to read the rules!

*** This forum is intended for a Christian audience. Those who are not of the Christian faith are welcome to sign up but will be relegated to the five bottom forums. Any derogatory remarks about God (including the Son and Holy Spirit) will be removed. The same goes for remarks about Christianity. Do not hold the Bible to be the Word of God? We are not interested, then.

If you are going to come here to belittle Christianity your membership will be revoked and it will be a nice knowing you! Hope things work out well for you on the great judgement day!
 

MonoBiblical

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Bs"d

The NT is written after the death of JC. So those supposed NT prophecies are written after the fact. And that of course disqualifies them as prophecies. Prophecies are about thing to happen in the future, not in the past.

And we have very strong predictions coming true, even until this day. See here: Sign
The prophecy claims to be from an old translation of an Aramaic-Hebrew original. You cannot prove it was written after the fact. You seem to think raising someone from the dead is demonic. And what about the Medieval Greek mosaic in Jerusalem?

This indicates that Modern Jews found a land and pretended or deluded themselves into thinking it was ancient Israel. No further prophecies are fulfilled or will be fulfilled. And I predict that with confidence.

And if you complain about "NT errors", what about the "rewritten" Pentateuch and the 2 missing Shavuot festivals? Those are serious blunders.
 
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Wrangler

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Agreed. @Bombastic is new and very academic. So, I thought he'd have a lot to say on the matter. Unfortunately, his bravado and bombast dissipates readily in the presence of those like you and me with good reasons not to agree with his brand of Calvinism. I wish him well in his pursuing other interests.
 

Eliyahu613

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No, that conclusion is not required by the text. It comes from reading the entire prophecy as if every part had to happen at the Messiah's first appearance. The Old Testament often combines events that are fulfilled at different times. Jesus Himself recognized this pattern.
Bs"d

So you admit that the most important part of this prophecy is not fulfilled.
For example, in Isaiah 61:1-2, Jesus read only the part about preaching good news and stopped before the words about "the day of vengeance of our God" because that part belongs to His future coming (Luke 4:16-21). So a single prophecy can contain both the first and second coming of the Messiah.

Micah 5 is another example.

The first part is unquestionably about the Messiah:

But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2, ASV)
And also that one is unquestionable not fulfilled.

And by the way, that part about "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.'" just doesn't exist:

Days of eternity
 

LoveYeshua

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So lovely it is when one points to THE CHRIST OF GOD ALL MIGHTY , JESUS THE MESSIAH .
And now i leave us with his own words .
FOR this cause came i into the world and for this reason was i born
TO TESTIFY OF THE TRUTH , all who are of THE TRUTH come to me .
IF they hear not the law , if they hear not the prophets , THEY will not be convinced though one rose FROM the dead .
EVEN abraham rejoiced to see HIS day , HE saw it and was g lad .
EVEN MOSES spoke of him as did the other prophets . Even the very law points to Christ .
But many cannot hear the law for the veil is upon their heart . And the blind cannot lead the blind
for both shall fall into the ditch .
JESUS spoke the TRUTH , the very words of the FATHER .
And HE gives life unto all who come unto HIM .
Not only does he speak truth , not only does he give life
HE IS THE TRUTH , HE IS THE LIFE , HE IS THE ONLY WAY UNTO THE FATHER .
HE is THE RESSURECITION . HE is the WORD of GOD and the Word was God .
This other fellow has about NO idea what he speaks of my friend nor what Spirit he is truly of at all .
But as for the sheep , THEY KNOW . THEY ARE THE BORN of GOD and not the flesh but of the SPIRIT .
I think he is trying to understand its why he is here....
 

LoveYeshua

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Bs"d

So you admit that the most important part of this prophecy is not fulfilled.

And also that one is unquestionable not fulfilled.

And by the way, that part about "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.'" just doesn't exist:

Days of eternity
Not all prophecies ( about 1/3 of the bible we Christians have is prophecy) were fulfilled as you know very well, still many to go. some prophecies are conditional some others have a dual meaning some are completed over time but not all at once, the one in Micah we discussed is one of them.

Peace be with you.
 
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Matthias

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“The rabbis had a problem. Their Scriptures descibed two completely different Messiahs.

One: a suffering servant, despised, pierced, ‘led like a lamb to the slaughter,’ dying for the sins of the people. Isaiah 53.

The other: a conquering king, ruling the nations, reigning forever in glory. Daniel 7.

Theses two pictures wouldn’t fit together. So some rabbis invented a solution: there must be TWO Messiahs.

They called them ‘Messiah ben Joseph’ - the one who suffers and dies - and ‘ Messiah ben David’ - the one who conquers and reigns.

Two Messiah’s, because they couldn’t imagine how one person could both die in shame AND reign in glory.

You know what’s shocking?

There was never supposed to be two.

It’s one Messiah. Two comings.

He came first as the suffering servant, ben Joseph, pierced for our sins. He’s coming again as the conquering king, ben David, to reign forever.

The rabbis split Him in half because they couldn’t see the gap between the cross and the crown.

Jesus is both. The Lamb who was slain AND the Lion who returns.

One Messiah. He just refused to fit in one visit.”

(Shahriq Khan)

 

Matthias

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Bs"d

Dennis puts his finger on the sore spot. The point of contention is not so much whether or not JC was the messiah, but the fact that he is declared divine, and he is worshiped. Because that is idolatry.

Being wrong about the identity of the messiah is no big deal, I don't think you get whiplashes for it, but being wrong about who is God, that is a VERY big deal, that is the essence of our religions.
Worshiping the wrong God is idolatry, and that carries upon it the death penalty.

On the previous page somebody writes:



Christians worship JC, Jews worship the one and only true God Y-H-W-H.

When God starts giving the law on Mount Sinai, He begins with the ten commandments. The ten commandments begin with:
And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Exodus 20:1-2

And what does Christianity do? They introduce a new man-god, that nobody ever heard of before. And that is the God which Christianity worships.

And Judaism worships only Y-H-W-H, and nobody else. Because that is what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

And that is the whole big difference between Judaism and Christianity. We are worshiping a different God.

Look here who God is: Who is God?

People talk. You’re listening to people talk about Jesus. They say all kinds of things about him. I recommend tuning them down, if not out.

Jesus is a Jew. Tune him in, turn him up. Read Jesus and listen to what he has to say.

***

David is a king of Israel. Right? 1 Chronicles 29:20.
 

LoveYeshua

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Bs"d

Dennis puts his finger on the sore spot. The point of contention is not so much whether or not JC was the messiah, but the fact that he is declared divine, and he is worshiped. Because that is idolatry.

Being wrong about the identity of the messiah is no big deal, I don't think you get whiplashes for it, but being wrong about who is God, that is a VERY big deal, that is the essence of our religions.
Worshiping the wrong God is idolatry, and that carries upon it the death penalty.

On the previous page somebody writes:



Christians worship JC, Jews worship the one and only true God Y-H-W-H.

When God starts giving the law on Mount Sinai, He begins with the ten commandments. The ten commandments begin with:
And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Exodus 20:1-2

And what does Christianity do? They introduce a new man-god, that nobody ever heard of before. And that is the God which Christianity worships.

And Judaism worships only Y-H-W-H, and nobody else. Because that is what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

And that is the whole big difference between Judaism and Christianity. We are worshiping a different God.

Look here who God is: Who is God?
LIsten ita a lie that Christian worship the father, you see people with pictures, images of Jesus like the Catholic Church that I dont believe some unlearned people may do so but true believers do not

No true Christians de not worship Jesus But God, the Gospels that contains the words and Actions id Jesus, paint a more complete picture. Jesus consistently directed people to the Father, taught people to pray to the Father, called the Father "the only true God," and lived in complete submission to Him. He never told His disciples to pray to Him or make Him the object of their devotion apart from the Father.

Here are some of the clearest passages (ASV):

Pray ye then after this manner: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name......... (Matthew 6:9)

Jesus did not teach, "Pray to Me." He taught His disciples to pray to the Father!

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. (Matthew 6:6) Again, Jesus directs all prayer to the Father.

And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.(John 17:3)

Here Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from the Father. The Father is the only true God, and Jesus is the One whom the Father sent.

A certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, even God. (Luke 18:18-19)
Rather than drawing attention to Himself, Jesus points the man back to God.

The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing. (John 5:19)

Jesus says His works come from the Father.

I can of myself do nothing. (John 5:30)

Again, Jesus points to His dependence on the Father.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 6:38)

His purpose was to obey the Father's will. and He asks us to do the same.

My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me. (John 7:16) Even His teaching is presented as coming from the Father.

My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28) Jesus openly acknowledges the Father's greater authority.

Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good. (Matthew 19:17)

Again, He directs attention to God.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

The focus is not merely calling Jesus "Lord," but doing the Father's will. If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. (John 14:15) Jesus asks for obedience to His teaching, which He repeatedly says comes from the Father.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me... (John 14:21)

Love for Jesus is shown by obedience, not by replacing the Father as the object of worship.

Jesus Himself worshiped the Father: Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matthew 4:10)

Jesus quotes the Torah, affirming that worship belongs to God alone!

He also prayed to the Father: Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luke 22:42)

If Jesus were teaching people to worship Him as the Father, it would make little sense for Him to pray in this way.

After His resurrection He still distinguished between Himself and God: I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (John 20:17) Jesus calls the Father my God.

The disciples followed this pattern after Jesus ascended.

When they asked how to pray, Jesus had already taught them to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9). In the book of Acts they continued praying to God the Father:

And they lifted up their voice to God with one accord... (Acts 4:24)

Peter also directed glory to God through Jesus: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus. (Acts 3:13)

Notice that Peter calls Jesus God's Servant, and all glory goes to the God of Israel.

This is summed up well in Jesus' own words: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Jesus presents Himself as the way to the Father, not as a replacement for the Father. His mission was always to bring people into a right relationship with the God of Israel, whom He called the only true God (John 17:3).
 

LoveYeshua

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@Eliyahu613 I forgot a few things this is a continuation of post 275;

Another important point is that Jesus never presented Himself as speaking on His own authority or seeking glory for Himself. He repeatedly said that everything He taught came from the Father.

No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. (John 15:15)

Jesus did not claim that His message originated with Himself. He faithfully delivered what He had received from the Father.

My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me. (John 7:16)

For I have not spoken from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. (John 12:49)

The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing. (John 5:19)

I can of myself do nothing. (John 5:30)

If Jesus had wanted people to make Him the ultimate object of worship, these would have been the perfect places to say so. Instead, He continually pointed people to the Father. His purpose was to reveal the Father, teach the Father's words, do the Father's will, and lead people back to the Father.

This is why Jesus taught: Pray ye then after this manner: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Matthew 6:9)

And He also declared: And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.(John 17:3)

Jesus is the Messiah, the Son whom the Father sent into the world. We honor the Son by believing Him, obeying His words, and following Him, because He is the One who leads us to the Father. As Jesus Himself said:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
 
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LoveYeshua

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Bs"d


And by the way, that part about "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.'" just doesn't exist:

Days of eternity
I have examined the Hebrew text(s) you are correct that מִימֵי עוֹלָם (mimei olam) often means "from the days of old" or "from ancient times" elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible. The examples from Micah 7:14, Isaiah 63:11, Amos 9:11, and Malachi 3:4 accurately show that this expression frequently refers to the distant past rather than eternity.

However, the conclusion that Micah 5:2 has therefore been deliberately mistranslated is not supported by the Hebrew evidence. The noun עוֹלָם (olam) has a well-established semantic range that includes both remote antiquity and everlasting duration, and Hebrew lexicons recognize both meanings. Context, rather than the word alone, determines which nuance is intended.

A careful, literal translation of Micah 5:2 is:

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for Me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from ancient times, from the days of olam.

An interpretive translation may render the final phrase as from ancient days or from everlasting, and either choice falls within the accepted meaning of olam. Therefore, it cannot be demonstrated from the Hebrew text alone that translations using everlasting or eternity are corrupt or intentionally altered to support Christian doctrine. The Hebrew itself allows more than one legitimate rendering, and translators must make a contextual judgment.
 
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