Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

PeterAndroz said:

Whateva 7t7, you're the expert & the others know nothing

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Peter,

Do you love truth?

Where all you want to know and believe is the Truth from God - regardless where it leads?

WPM said:

You did not answer my questions:

1. Are the wicked in a physical prison?
2. Are the wicked bound by metal chains?

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No they’re still being wicked and that’s the point. You’re version of Satan isn’t bound.

doctrox said:

and

In either case, I claimed nothing of the sort; your screed is simply more of your straw.

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Very unlikely. You have not really refute my position yet as you shall see.

doctrox said:

And as far as "in the clouds" goes, ya gotta luv "the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor. 11:3). We simply let scripture interpret scripture.

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The real question is... have you allow Scripture to interpret scripture regarding the cloud? I do not think so.

The cloud in scripture symbolizes God's Glory. e.g.:

Exodus 40:35

• "And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the Glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle".

Numbers 16:42

• "And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared."

1st Kings 8:11

• "So that the Priests could not stand to minister because of the Cloud, because the Glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord."

And many other such verses. The cloud signifies the Glory of God. This is a time of judgement upon this house when the priests will not be able to minister by reason of the Glory of God. Eg, in Revelation 11:12, when we read that the believers are told to come to kingdom of heaven by God, and they stand up from death in the streets and go into a cloud, it's signifying that they are in the Glory of God.

doctrox said:

1 Thes. 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All four are consistent with “meet and greet and return to base.“

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Verse 17 does not say that we will meet the Lord in the air and then “return to the base,” “return to Earth,” or go to some other specific place afterward. Nope. That is something you are adding to the text.

The verse plainly says that we will “meet the Lord in the air” and “so shall we ever be with the Lord.” That is the actual statement of Scripture. It does not specify a destination afterward.

You are taking what the verse actually says and then inserting your own theory about what supposedly happens next. That is not exegesis—it is imagination going beyond the text.

TribulationSigns said:

Very unlikely. You have not really refute my position yet as you shall see

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There's nothing to refute.

It's a no-brainer; all 22 verses where cloud appears --> Blue Letter Bible

doctrox said:

There's nothing to refute.

It's a no-brainer; all 22 verses where cloud appears --> Blue Letter Bible

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In symbolic book of Revelation chapter 11, you believe the Two Witnesses spew literal fire out of their mouths literally. The bodies of two individuals lie down on physical street of the city. And they went up into literal clouds.

Yeah, got it.

TribulationSigns said:

In symbolic book of Revelation chapter 11, you believe the Two Witnesses spew literal fire out of their mouths literally.

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You have a long row of bloviation to hoe, my friend, all the way to a bitter harvest.

TribulationSigns said:

Yeah, got it.

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doctrox said:

You have a long row of bloviation to hoe, my friend, all the way to a bitter harvest.

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Nah, the Lord judges and I am comfortable with that!

David in NJ said:

Exactly when was satan bound?

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First Advent.

IndianaRob said:

No they’re still being wicked and that’s the point. You’re version of Satan isn’t bound.

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And who said Satan is still not bad?

IndianaRob said:

What I want to see is how you've worked out Rev 20:1-3, where you've got a chain, a key, a pit, a seal, and a stated duration. If all five are figures, what's each one a figure of?

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In Revelation 20, we are looking at a vision about a dragon. Is this a literal dragon? Of course not. Satan is a spiritual being. It is a symbolic vision. The chain and key are also not literal and physical but symbolic.

• The dragon represents Satan.
• The angel is Christ.
• The chain represents restraint.
• The key represents authority.

John was given a symbolic picture of a dragon (yes a dragon) being placed into a prison with chains around him. Was this a literal dragon? No! Were these literal metal chain? Of course not. Was this a physical brick penitentiary? Of course not. This represented Satan being placed under spiritual restraint after the resurrection. The restraint related exclusively to the deception of the Gentiles. It allowed the Gospel to spread globally and Satan could not stop it. The Gentiles were blind, deceived and ignorant before the cross, since Christ’s victory and Satan's restraint the light has shone upon the Gentiles and countless have been set free.

Revelation 20 is simply showing an figurative picture of the victory Christ secured over Satan through His sinless life, vicarious death and glorious resurrection (the first resurrection). The symbolic dragon is thrown into a symbolic prison with symbolic chains upon him. You need to see that Satan is not a physical being, so a physical brick prison and metal chains won't cut it. This literal imagery represents deeper spiritual truth - namely that Satan is curtailed from deceiving the Gentiles as he did before the cross.

ewq1938 said:

And imprisoned...Amill almost never talks about that part because it isn't as easy to explain away. An angel comes from heaven to Earth with a key to a lock, binds and locks satan into a prison.

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Not true. What is the issue.

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners?

Did this indicate they were immobile? Did this mean they could not kill, steal and destroy?

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison?

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house?

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Were these chains literally iron?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house?

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil?

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

David in NJ said:

JESUS Defeated Satan and his angels and all evil spirits.

HE did not chain up Satan as yet - that will occur at His Second Coming = as Promised

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If the Fall was the greatest tragedy that hit mankind, the cross was the greatest blessing. It confronted and overcame everything that was arrayed against us.

Revelation 20 shows Christ gain an incredible victory over every enemy of righteousness:

Justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan – the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) – the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) – the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for sinners.

This meant that none of these had any power over God’s people.

Satan has been totally defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t have to defeat the enemy, Jesus has already done that. All we need to do is use our God given authority and enforce that victory wherever we go.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

amigo de christo said:

Depends on what one means by christain . c ause from what i can clearly see
satan sure has a lot of those who cliam to be christain
under the sway of his power and of what he now calls GOD , c alls love and calls unity for peace .
But oh yes the true christains who by faith in Christ do resist him , OH HE gonna cause perseuctions
to come their way. and reader DO beware and be alert .
Cause many of those who already cast us out and soon will be co helpers to our round up ,
OH THEY GONNA think they christain , they gonna beleive the solution of anti christ for peace
and they gonna think the true sheep who did n ot conform to the all inclusive god
Are haters and dangerous and even potential terrorists . JUST letting you know
WHAT the sold out ecumeincal churches who heed this inclusiv e god
ARE doing and preparing their own with all the false relgions , TO COME AGAINST the true sheep in the time to come .
The greatest hour of tribulation IS NOT behind us , BUDDY ITS ABOUT TO SLAM DOWN against the SAINTS OF GOD and OF CHRIST .

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@amigo de christo

David in NJ said:

#1 - When does your mortal existence end and your NEW existence in a resurrected glorified body BEGIN?

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Perhaps if they read corinthians chapter fifteen they would have understood the answer to the question you have asked .
FOR PAUL says THE WHEN . THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written
death is swallowed up in victory .
Even new bodies await us my friend . For now we have been awoke from the dead and walk by the Spirit in newness of LIFE .
but then , but then , even then we will have NEW glorified bodies .
Changed in an instant , changed at THE LAST TRUMPET , at the end of our faith , at the day OF JESUS CHRIST .
WHEN Indeed the last enemy shall be destroyed and death swallowed up .
For now we DO have LIFE in CHRIST JESUS , but still walk in corruptible flesh
BUT THEN , EVEN THEN we shall have even new bodies .
And even at the moment of our sleep , if so be we die before HIS return
WE , the sheep of HIS pasture , SHALL NEVER DIE for JESUS has ALREADY OVERCOME Death for us .
TO the trenches one and to the trenches all . For in this life YE shall have perseuction and tribulation
But in the world to come FOREVER with the LORD where the sun will not smite thee , no tribulations anymore my friend ,
And we all simply praise and rejoice forever in new bodies with THE LORD who had saved and kept us .

David in NJ said:

Peter,

Do you love truth?

Where all you want to know and believe is the Truth from God - regardless where it leads?

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And how does one know they have the love of the Truth within them .
THEY WOULD have LOVED THE TRUTH and NOT A LIE .
How come so many now love a big ol broad path LIE that has absolutey made VOID
the dire need to EVEN have to BELIEVE ON JESUS as now it seems they have EVERY religoin on the path TO GOD
in its own way . THAT AINT THE TR UTH . JESUS IS THE TRUTH and SO IS HIS GOSPEL of YE MUST beleive in HIM .
And how come i see so many that have been embracing not THE JESUS , NOT HIS words
but rather another jesus that seems FINE and dandy WITH SINS . THAT sure dont SOUND LIKE truth TO ME david .
So how can one easily TEST to see
if the love they have IS OF GOD and THUS IS FOR TRUTH .
OPEN BIBLE . See if its those words if spirit and of life THAT JESUS spoke that is what is upon our hearts .
OR has it been the words of men all along that have twisted and even made void THOSE words .
IF it be the latter , THEN A LIE has been loved all along .
And that IS NOT the reason JESUS came into the world .
HE was not born nor did he come into the world to TESTIFY OF A LIE and LIES
but another jesus sure will .
JESUS came and for this cause was he born . TO TESTIFY OF THE TRUTH
and all who are of the TRUTH come to HIM . And every WORD of GOD IS TRUTH .

David in NJ said:

Peter,

Do you love truth?

Where all you want to know and believe is the Truth from God - regardless where it leads?

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The TRUTH is of GOD and Leads only TO CHRIST JESUS who is the TRUTH the way and the LIFE .
A lie , well that is of the devil and that leads only to THE BROAD INCLUSIVE ALL ACcEPTING ROAD
which the end of that IS perdition .
THERE is only TWO ways . ONE keeps the person IN DEATH and they will face the second death at their end
FOR if they reject THE ONLY WAY to GOD and HOW to be saved , and or try and follow a sin accepting jesus
The end of such WILL surely be the second death .
THERE are only two ways . ONE BE OF THE DARKNESS
the OTHER IS THE LIGHT O GOD CHRIST JESUS .
AND GOD has shined HIS LIGHT of the GLORIOUS GOSPEL unto the world
and yet many have loved the darkness and will not come to the LIGHT lest their deeds be Exposed .
THE TRUTH COMETH ONLY OF GOD who IS THE TRUTH and IS given unto
THOSE WHO BY THE SON DO COME TO HIM . there is no way a lie can lead one to THE TRUTH
ONLY THE TRUTH can do that .
NO lie IS of GOD . but let us beware that another one can come playing as though HE be GOD
and he will put the LIGHT for darkness and darkness for light . He lies . GOD does NOT LIE .
its bible time in the house .

WPM said:

First Advent.

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At what point in the First Advent?

amigo de christo said:

Perhaps if they read corinthians chapter fifteen they would have understood the answer to the question you have asked .
FOR PAUL says THE WHEN . THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written
death is swallowed up in victory .
Even new bodies await us my friend . For now we have been awoke from the dead and walk by the Spirit in newness of LIFE .
but then , but then , even then we will have NEW glorified bodies .
Changed in an instant , changed at THE LAST TRUMPET , at the end of our faith , at the day OF JESUS CHRIST .
WHEN Indeed the last enemy shall be destroyed and death swallowed up .
For now we DO have LIFE in CHRIST JESUS , but still walk in corruptible flesh
BUT THEN , EVEN THEN we shall have even new bodies .
And even at the moment of our sleep , if so be we die before HIS return
WE , the sheep of HIS pasture , SHALL NEVER DIE for JESUS has ALREADY OVERCOME Death for us .
TO the trenches one and to the trenches all . For in this life YE shall have perseuction and tribulation
But in the world to come FOREVER with the LORD where the sun will not smite thee , no tribulations anymore my friend ,
And we all simply praise and rejoice forever in new bodies with THE LORD who had saved and kept us .

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The Holy Scriptures are Harmonious

A person must be willing to have faith in "every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God" to HEAR the MELODY

amigo de christo said:

The TRUTH is of GOD and Leads only TO CHRIST JESUS who is the TRUTH the way and the LIFE .
A lie , well that is of the devil and that leads only to THE BROAD INCLUSIVE ALL ACcEPTING ROAD
which the end of that IS perdition .
THERE is only TWO ways . ONE keeps the person IN DEATH and they will face the second death at their end
FOR if they reject THE ONLY WAY to GOD and HOW to be saved , and or try and follow a sin accepting jesus
The end of such WILL surely be the second death .
THERE are only two ways . ONE BE OF THE DARKNESS
the OTHER IS THE LIGHT O GOD CHRIST JESUS .
AND GOD has shined HIS LIGHT of the GLORIOUS GOSPEL unto the world
and yet many have loved the darkness and will not come to the LIGHT lest their deeds be Exposed .
THE TRUTH COMETH ONLY OF GOD who IS THE TRUTH and IS given unto
THOSE WHO BY THE SON DO COME TO HIM . there is no way a lie can lead one to THE TRUTH
ONLY THE TRUTH can do that .
NO lie IS of GOD . but let us beware that another one can come playing as though HE be GOD
and he will put the LIGHT for darkness and darkness for light . He lies . GOD does NOT LIE .
its bible time in the house .

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Delicious Bread of the WORD that we need to HEAR - thank you