12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

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ATP

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Butch5 said:
i don't believe the dead bodies in Isa 66:22-24, Jer 7:30-34 and Jer 31:38-40 are referring to the lake of fire bodies after the GWT.

against Christ, whose person they blasphemed, denying him to be God; whose office, as a Mediator and Saviour, they rejected; whose doctrines they contradicted; and whose ordinances they despised: these are not the carcasses of the camp of Gog and Magog, the Jews so call, as Kimchi interprets it; though it may have reference to the carcasses of Gog's army, the Turks, that will be slain in their attempt to recover Judea, Ezekiel 38:1 or else the carcasses of those that will be slain at the battle at Armageddon, Revelation 16:16 or the army of Gog and Magog, at the end of the thousand years, Revelation 20:8.

carcasses, &c.—(Isa 66:16), those slain by the Lord in the last great battle near Jerusalem (Zec 12:2-9; 14:2-4); type of the final destruction of all sinners.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord,.... And they were coming on apace; a little longer, and they would be come; for it was but a few years after this ere Jerusalem was besieged and taken by the army of the Chaldeans, and the slaughter made after mentioned:

Sennacherib's army, destroyed by an angel; and so Jarchi and Kimchi; which latter observes, that the word for "ashes" signifies "fat"; and so may describe the persons then destroyed, who were fat and lusty men: others think, more probably, that the valley of Tophet or Hinnom is here meant; so called, either from the persons that were burnt and sacrificed to Moloch; or from the carcasses of malefactors interred here; and from the ashes of the sacrifices which were brought from the temple, and laid here.

40. valley of … dead—Tophet, where the bodies of malefactors were cast (Isa 30:33), south of the city.

Isa 30:33 NIV Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Isa 30 Verses 31-33 - For the sudden and extraordinary end of the huge *Assyrian army, see Isaiah 37:33-36.

- ATP
 

logabe

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OzSpen said:
logabe,

Are you really asking: Are there degrees of punishment in hell [Gehenna]?
I wouldn't say degrees of hell, but I would say according to your works determines the longevity of your time
in the 2nd death. Where did I get that from? Luke 12:47-48 says,

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act
in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a
flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much,
much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will
ask all the more.

In other words, Paul said the Law is spiritual so we have to see this as not an actual beating, but a spiritual
one, such as trials that we go through in this present time. They are very uncomfortable when we are in the
midst of a fiery trial and it is as if we are being beat mentally and spiritually through our minds. My point is,
it takes longer for many stripes to be accomplished than for a few.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
ATP said:
You're making this more complex than it is. It has nothing to do with where they live or what sin they committed. Born again is born again, it is that simple.


Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying if I was in the jungle of Africa and have never heard
the word of God, it shouldn't be an excuse for not being begotten again. Many have died and have
never heard the word of God, so according to you, God will throw them into a fiery pit for a very
long time. That don't even make since.

As for as their sin, correct me if I am wrong, but if your child was hungry and you didn't have any
money to buy a loaf of bread so you stole it. God will judge you the same as a person that kills 15
people. I don't think so.

In Rom. 1:20, God is talking to people that knew him and turned their back on him. Rom. 1:21 says,

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God
or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their
foolish heart was darkened.

Paul was speaking of Judah and Israel in the days of the prophets where they began to worship other
gods and cause the people to go after strange gods. Jer. 2:5 says,

5 Thus saith the Lord, What iniquity have your fathers found in me,
that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and
are become vain?

So God turn them over to a reprobate to believe a lie, because of their rebellion against Him. The 1st
chapter of Romans has nothing to do with unbelievers, but God was warning the church of Rome what
could happen if the Roman Christians didn't heed to the word of God.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

ATP

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logabe said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying if I was in the jungle of Africa and have never heard
the word of God, it shouldn't be an excuse for not being begotten again. Many have died and have
never heard the word of God, so according to you, God will throw them into a fiery pit for a very
long time. That don't even make since.
That's exactly what I'm saying. The word of God is clear with this subject. Eccl 3:11 and Rom 1:20.

logabe said:
As for as their sin, correct me if I am wrong, but if your child was hungry and you didn't have any
money to buy a loaf of bread so you stole it. God will judge you the same as a person that kills 15
people. I don't think so.
Rom 8:1 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

logabe said:
In Rom. 1:20, God is talking to people that knew him and turned their back on him. Rom. 1:21 says,

21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God
or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their
foolish heart was darkened.

So God turn them over to a reprobate to believe a lie, because of their rebellion against Him. The 1st
chapter of Romans has nothing to do with unbelievers, but God was warning the church of Rome what
could happen if the Roman Christians didn't heed to the word of God.
Incorrect. The word reprobate only refers to nonbelievers. Rom 1:18-32 is about nonbelievers. Even the devil knows God Logabe.

The definition includes the word "wicked". - http://dictionary.re...e/reprobate?s=t

And as we all know, believers will not be thrown into the Lake of Fire..

Rev 20:15 NIV Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary - http://biblehub.com/...ation/20-15.htm

After the events just foretold, the end will speedily come; and there is no mention of any thing else, before the appearing of Christ to judge the world. This will be the great day: the Judge, the Lord Jesus Christ, will then put on majesty and terror. The persons to be judged are the dead, small and great; young and old, low and high, poor and rich. None are so mean, but they have some talents to account for; and none so great, as to avoid having to account for them. Not only those alive at the coming of Christ, but all the dead. There is a book of remembrance both for good and bad: and the book of the sinner's conscience, though formerly secret, will then be opened. Every man will recollect all his past actions, though he had long forgotten many of them. Another book shall be opened, the book of the Scriptures, the rule of life; it represents the Lord's knowledge of his people, and his declaring their repentance, faith, and good works; showing the blessings of the new covenant. By their works men shall be justified or condemned; he will try their principles by their practices. Those justified and acquitted by the gospel, shall be justified and acquitted by the Judge, and shall enter into eternal life, having nothing more to fear from death, or hell, or wicked men; for these are all destroyed together. This is the second death; it is the final separation of sinners from God. Let it be our great concern to see whether our Bibles justify or condemn us now; for Christ will judge the secrets of all men according to the gospel. Who shall dwell with devouring flames?

The definition also includes the word "condemn". - http://dictionary.re...e/reprobate?s=t

And as we all know, believers are no longer condemned because they have been forgiven of past, present and future sins.

Rom 8:1 NIV Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

John 3:18 NIV Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

logabe said:
Paul was speaking of Judah and Israel in the days of the prophets where they began to worship other
gods and cause the people to go after strange gods. Jer. 2:5 says,

5 Thus saith the Lord, What iniquity have your fathers found in me,
that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and
are become vain?
You're comparing Jews in Israel in the OT to born again Christians after resurrection?? :eek:
 

OzSpen

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logabe said:
I wouldn't say degrees of hell, but I would say according to your works determines the longevity of your time
in the 2nd death. Where did I get that from? Luke 12:47-48 says,

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act
in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a
flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much,
much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will
ask all the more.

In other words, Paul said the Law is spiritual so we have to see this as not an actual beating, but a spiritual
one, such as trials that we go through in this present time. They are very uncomfortable when we are in the
midst of a fiery trial and it is as if we are being beat mentally and spiritually through our minds. My point is,
it takes longer for many stripes to be accomplished than for a few.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
Logabe,

I'm of the view that the Bible does teach that there are degrees of punishment in hell and you have touched on one set of verses:

1. Since God is “the righteous Judge” (2 Tim. 4:8), we would expect that sinners would be punished according to the extent of their sin. This is what the Bible affirms.

2. Matthew 10:14-15 states, “And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (ESV).

So it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who do not welcome and listen to the apostles. This is an amazing statement: it is going to be fairer for those who committed sexual immorality in Sodom & Gomorrah than for those who rejected the gospel. What is this saying about punishment in hell?

3. A similar affirmation of degrees of punishment can be found in Matthew 11:21-24,

“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you” (NIV).

4. Luke 12:47-48 (ESV) speaks of many blows and few blows: “And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more”.

The lesson is that where one has greater privileges, there will be greater responsibilities. J. C. Ryle warned: “The saddest road to hell is that which runs under the pulpit, past the Bible and through the midst of warnings and invitations.”
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
I'm just not convinced that the lake of fire is somewhere on earth. I believe it's in another dimension, similar to the third heaven.


What are your thoughts on post 179.
How do you make that work with Scripture? If it's not on earth then there must be two different places where the wicked are burned up.
ATP said:
i don't believe the dead bodies in Isa 66:22-24, Jer 7:30-34 and Jer 31:38-40 are referring to the lake of fire bodies after the GWT.

against Christ, whose person they blasphemed, denying him to be God; whose office, as a Mediator and Saviour, they rejected; whose doctrines they contradicted; and whose ordinances they despised: these are not the carcasses of the camp of Gog and Magog, the Jews so call, as Kimchi interprets it; though it may have reference to the carcasses of Gog's army, the Turks, that will be slain in their attempt to recover Judea, Ezekiel 38:1 or else the carcasses of those that will be slain at the battle at Armageddon, Revelation 16:16 or the army of Gog and Magog, at the end of the thousand years, Revelation 20:8.

carcasses, &c.—(Isa 66:16), those slain by the Lord in the last great battle near Jerusalem (Zec 12:2-9; 14:2-4); type of the final destruction of all sinners.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord,.... And they were coming on apace; a little longer, and they would be come; for it was but a few years after this ere Jerusalem was besieged and taken by the army of the Chaldeans, and the slaughter made after mentioned:
Sennacherib's army, destroyed by an angel; and so Jarchi and Kimchi; which latter observes, that the word for "ashes" signifies "fat"; and so may describe the persons then destroyed, who were fat and lusty men: others think, more probably, that the valley of Tophet or Hinnom is here meant; so called, either from the persons that were burnt and sacrificed to Moloch; or from the carcasses of malefactors interred here; and from the ashes of the sacrifices which were brought from the temple, and laid here.

40. valley of … dead—Tophet, where the bodies of malefactors were cast (Isa 30:33), south of the city.

Isa 30:33 NIV Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Isa 30 Verses 31-33 - For the sudden and extraordinary end of the huge *Assyrian army, see Isaiah 37:33-36.

- ATP
I agree that they are not the bodies of those in the great white throne judgment. That is at the end of the millennium. I do believe it is the same fire. If it's not then Jesus and John have the wicked going to two different places.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
I do believe it is the same fire. If it's not then Jesus and John have the wicked going to two different places.
Unless Jesus was simply using picture language in Isa 66:24. How can spiritual beings like the devil or the false prophet be burned to nothing. How can you annihilate "a spirit". I would submit that hell is simpy separation from God and not annihilation..(2 Thess 1:9 They will be punished with eternal destruction (olethros), forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.) And as we all know, the word "olethros" does not mean annihilation.

Destruction (3639)(olethros from ollumi = to destroy. Derivative = apollumi = destroy utterly or fully and has to do with that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose) is a state of utter and hopeless ruin and the end of all that gives worth to human existence! Do not confuse with a state of annihilation (and non-existence so that there is no longer an actual personal perception) for olethros signifies an unavoidable, very real experience of distress and torment! The destruction Paul warns about is a time of unavoidable distress, disaster and ruin. This destruction will not be a loss of being but rather a loss of well-being. The idea of olethros is to suffer the loss of all that gives worth to existence.

Isa 66:24 Picture, figurative, image language...

Their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched (comp. Mark 9:44, 46, 48). It cannot be by chance that the evangelical prophet concludes his glorious prophecy with this terrible note of warning. Either he was divinely directed thus to terminate his teaching, or he felt the need that there was of his emphasizing all the many warnings dispersed throughout his "book" by a final, never-to-be-forgotten picture. The undying worm and the quenchless fire - images introduced by him - became appropriated thenceforth to the final condition of impenitent sinners (Jud. 16:17; Ecclus. 7:17), and were even adopted by our Lord himself in the same connection (Mark 9.). The incongruity of the two images shows that they are not to be understood literally; but both alike imply everlasting continuance, and are incompatible with either of the two modern heresies of universalism or annihilationism.

What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists. In any case there is a strange solemnity in this being the last word of the prophet’s book of revelation, even as there is a like awfulness in the picture of the final judgment, which appears in Matthew 25:46, at all but the close of our Lord’s public teaching. Cheyne quotes a singular rubric of the Jewish ritual, that when this chapter, or Ecclesiastes 12, or Malachi 3, was read in the synagogue, the last verse but one should be repeated after the last, so that mercy might appear as in the end triumphant after and over judgment.

Verse 24
This verse describes a terrible scene. It refers to the deep narrow valley called Hinnom. This valley is near to *Jerusalem, on the south side. (The *New Testament uses the *Greek word Gehenna for the *Hebrew word Hinnom – see Matthew 10:28). In the Hinnom Valley, two wicked kings of Israel burned their sons as a *sacrifice to false gods (Ahaz, see 2 Chronicles 28:3; Manasseh, see 2 Chronicles 33:6). And other people copied this wicked behaviour (see Jeremiah 7:32; 19:5-6; 32:35).
· Later, the inhabitants of *Jerusalem threw their rubbish into the Hinnom Valley. What worms did not eat, fire destroyed. The fire never went out. Soon, what happened became powerful picture language to describe Hell. Jesus uses this verse, to mean ‘to *destroy totally’ (see Mark 9:48). Isaiah 66:24 is describing those people who refuse to serve God. They refuse to obey God’s instructions. But God is the origin of life. So these people have removed themselves from the God who gave them life. The verse describes their punishment as the extreme opposite of life. They have brought about their own terrible punishment. And that punishment is death that lasts for all time. (See Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10.)

Isaiah 66:24. And they shall go forth — Namely, those who had joined themselves to the communion of the church spoken of in the preceding verses; and look upon the carcasses of the men that have sinned against me — Meaning chiefly the unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ and his gospel, including, however, all impenitent sinners, and especially all the enemies and persecutors of God’s truth and people. By looking upon their carcasses is meant beholding the dreadful vengeance taken on them. This is here represented in figurative language. The misery is described by an allusion to the frightful spectacle of a field of battle covered with the carcasses of the slain, which lie rotting upon the ground, full of worms, crawling about them, and feeding on them. It seems the Lord, by his prophet, first intends to set forth the dreadful temporal calamities that should come upon the Jews, in the destruction of their city and nation by the Romans; in which destruction, as has been intimated in the note on Isaiah 66:16, not less than between two and three millions, first and last, were cut off by the sword, famine, and pestilence. But when it is added, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, it is certain the punishment of the wicked in the world to come is chiefly intended. These words, it is well known, are applied by our Saviour, (Mark 9:44,) to express the everlasting punishment of the wicked in Gehenna, or hell, so called, in allusion to the valley of Hinnom, the place where the idolatrous Jews celebrated that horrible rite of making their children pass through the fire, that is, of burning them in sacrifice to Moloch; concerning which place see note Isaiah 30:33. “Our Saviour,” says Bishop Lowth, expressed the state of the blessed by sensible images; such as paradise, Abraham’s bosom, or, which is the same thing, a place to recline next to Abraham at table, in the kingdom of heaven; (see Matthew 8:11; John 13:23;) for we could not possibly have any conception of it, but by analogy from worldly objects: in like manner he expressed the place of torment under the image of Gehenna; and the punishment of the wicked by the worm, which there preyed on the carcasses, and the fire, which consumed the wretched victims. Marking, however, in the strongest manner, the difference between Gehenna and the invisible place of torment: namely, that in the former, the suffering is transient; the worm itself, that preys on the body, dies: whereas, in the figurative Gehenna, the instruments of punishment shall be everlasting, and the suffering without end; for there the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. “These emblematical images, expressing heaven and hell, were in use among the Jews before our Saviour’s time; and in using them, he complied with their notions. Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God, says the Jew to our Saviour, Luke 14:15. And, in regard to Gehenna, the Chaldee paraphrast renders everlasting, or continual burnings, by the Gehenna of everlasting fire. And before this time the son of Sirach (Sir 7:17) had said, The vengeance of the ungodly is fire and worms. So likewise the author of the book of Judith, ‘Wo to the nation rising up against my kindred, the Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment, putting fire and worms in their flesh:’ Jdt 16:17, manifestly referring to the same emblem.”
 

logabe

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OzSpen said:
Logabe,

“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you” (NIV).
So what does that tell us Oz?

There is a lot of truth in what Jesus is saying in these scriptures, but most Christians look @ the negative
side and never see the powerful truth that Jesus is relating to us. Let me explain. Matt. 11:21 says,

21 they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Did you see that. These people were worse than Sodom. They were the scum of the earth and Jesus
said if they would have seen the mighty miracles that was done in Bethsaida, they would have repented
long ago. In other words, the day of judgment is coming and Tyre and Sidon will repent before Bethsaida
will.

The purpose of the G.W.T. is for people to repent "change their ways" by bowing their knees and confessing
that Jesus Christ is Lord. You can't come to God unless the Spirit draws you. God controls that by examining
your life that you live during your lifetime. Because Tyre and Sidon wasn't exposed to the glory that the Son of
God possessed they couldn't really understand what God was doing. So God's judgment will be a lot different
for them than for Bethsaida which supposedly knew God and had the means to know Him a lot better than Tyre
and Sidon did.

Oh... but I forgot... both of them are going to hell for eternity, so it doesn't matter whether they have a lesser
judgment, because they still will be separated from God without any hope of ever getting out. Wrong!!! Matt.
18:34-35 says,

34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers (jailer)
until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not
forgive his brother from your heart.”

There's a lot of truth in these scriptures, but Christians see the negative and not the truth of the matter. The
word "until" is a time word. Jesus is saying in this parable that He has forgave us and He expects us to forgive
just like He forgave us with unconditional Love. If you don't, He will put you in jail (judgment) and you want get
out until you have paid all that you owe.

In other words, God will put us in judgment until we have learned our lesson. Now that's not popular in the most
of the Christian circles, because most Christians think that once you go to judgment it is for eternity, but that's not
what Jesus said. I forgive those teachers that teach Christian people that type of garbage, but we see now what
Jesus had to say about judgment and it is left up to us to believe what He just said. We're kind of like Bethsaida
in that we have been exposed to the truth of this judgment matter and we understand that @ some point we will
be released from this training.

You see... God chastises those He Loves. Well, who does He Love? For God so loved the world and @ some point
in history He will chastise Tyre, Sidon, and Bethsaida and cause them to praise the name of the Lord. Rev. 5:13 says,


13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under
the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him

who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory
and dominion forever and ever.”

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

ATP

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logabe said:
The purpose of the G.W.T. is for people to repent "change their ways" by bowing their knees and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord.
That's not the purpose of the Great White Throne. After all we've discussed, we're back to square one?
 

JimParker

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Butch5 said:
Hi Jim,

How is one conscious when dead? Aren't the dead unconscious. Regarding the Greek word "aionios" I agree that it is absurd to use the word for an eternal existence in one part of the sentence and an instantaneous termination of existence in another. However, this argument assumes that the word "aionios" means eternal, I would submit that it doesn't. Both "olam" and "aionoin" are used of things that came to an end. Something that ends is not eternal. If you would like I can post passages of Scripture showing this. If "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, which it doens't, then Jesus teaching in Mathew 25 is not speaking of eternal punishment.

I'm quite aware that most Bible dictionaries will give eternal as the definition of "aionios," however, that doesn't make it so. Remember, Bible dictionaries are written by the same people who write commentaries and we know we can find commentaries to agree with just about any doctrine we want to believe.
<<How is one conscious when dead? Aren't the dead unconscious.>>

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

<< However, this argument assumes that the word "aionios" means eternal, I would submit that it doesn't. Both "olam" and "aionoin" are used of things that came to an end.>>

The word used in Mat 25:41 is "aionos" not "olam."

If you want to say that "aionios kolasis" (eternal punishment) comes to an end, then you must also say that "aionios zoe" (eternal life also comes to an end.

To attempt to make the same word mean two different things in the same sentence is nonsense. Jesus very plainly described the two options for mankind; eternal life or eternal punishment.

<<If "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, which it doens't>>

According to both Thayer and Vine, experts in the field, it does indeed mean "eternal." I can accept the conclusion of people who have made it their life's work to translate the scriptures or I can accept the conclusion of an ignorant, unschooled, babler like Ellen G. White.

I choose the former.
 

Bibliocentrist

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I can't read 9 pages! All i know is that i have still been suffering "Hell" here and now (even if not the total hell that supposed to be after death).
It is difficiult to tell from the bible whether "hell" or sleep after die [whether hell after die or during "life"], and whether lake of fire/2nd death or anihilation after resurrection, as there are many "contradicting" verses (eg Lazarus and the rich man). Just like the "rapture" it is safest not to assume anything and not risk.
Some people forever miss out on things in this "life" (eg no marriage in heaven). Josephus has a discourse on hell.
"Eternal life" is supposed to also be here and now not just the after die.

On one hand it wouldn't be fair for some to be in hell longer or short. On the other hand maybe hell is a place with levels to get equalisation for those who suffered more or less in life?


A pastor once did a sermon on Heaven. At the start he said "who wants to go to heaven" and everyone put up their hands. Then he pulled out a revolver.

if God is true then in the new heaven and new earth there will be traveling the stars/space like in sci fi.

"As Hillel the Elder had stated, whosoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whosoever that saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."

p.s. aion/aeon means age(s) in Greek. might be related to yom(e). so it might mean for ages, like eternity.

p.p.s. olam: in studying the meanings of the names in the table of nations in Genesis 10 i found that Elam may mean
{"age/eternity"/"to ascend/highlands" , olam "eternal/universal/hidden/youfful", olam "tall&massive column of universal events", olam/'wlm/'lm "forever, eternal", 'lm "hidden/hide/cover/bury/conceal", eilam/elem/almah "big" [ayl+am?]/'ylm/elam/['lm]/eylam "tall/massive"}
 

Butch5

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JimParker said:
<<How is one conscious when dead? Aren't the dead unconscious.>>

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

<< However, this argument assumes that the word "aionios" means eternal, I would submit that it doesn't. Both "olam" and "aionoin" are used of things that came to an end.>>

The word used in Mat 25:41 is "aionos" not "olam."

If you want to say that "aionios kolasis" (eternal punishment) comes to an end, then you must also say that "aionios zoe" (eternal life also comes to an end.

To attempt to make the same word mean two different things in the same sentence is nonsense. Jesus very plainly described the two options for mankind; eternal life or eternal punishment.

<<If "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, which it doens't>>

According to both Thayer and Vine, experts in the field, it does indeed mean "eternal." I can accept the conclusion of people who have made it their life's work to translate the scriptures or I can accept the conclusion of an ignorant, unschooled, babler like Ellen G. White.

I choose the former.
Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Jim,

This is talking about the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:37-38 KJV)


The word used in Mat 25:41 is "aionos" not "olam."

If you want to say that "aionios kolasis" (eternal punishment) comes to an end, then you must also say that "aionios zoe" (eternal life also comes to an end.

To attempt to make the same word mean two different things in the same sentence is nonsense. Jesus very plainly described the two options for mankind; eternal life or eternal punishment.
I'm not attempting to make the word "aionios" mean two different things. I'm suggesting that it doesn't mean eternal.



According to both Thayer and Vine, experts in the field, it does indeed mean "eternal." I can accept the conclusion of people who have made it their life's work to translate the scriptures or I can accept the conclusion of an ignorant, unschooled, babler like Ellen G. White.

I choose the former.

How about accepting the Scripture over all three of them. Jesus spoke of "aionios" punishment in Mathew 25 and that punishment was "aionios" fire.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mat 25:41-46 KJV)

Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrha are an example of "aionios" fire.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)

Now, one only has to look to the Middle East to see if those two cities are still burning today. Clearly they are not, thus "aionios" fire is not eternal fire. There are numerous places in the Scriptures where Owlam and aion are used of things that end. A thing that ends obviously is not eternal.
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
Unless Jesus was simply using picture language in Isa 66:24. How can spiritual beings like the devil or the false prophet be burned to nothing. How can you annihilate "a spirit". I would submit that hell is simpy separation from God and not annihilation..(2 Thess 1:9 They will be punished with eternal destruction (olethros), forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.) And as we all know, the word "olethros" does not mean annihilation.

Destruction (3639)(olethros from ollumi = to destroy. Derivative = apollumi = destroy utterly or fully and has to do with that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose) is a state of utter and hopeless ruin and the end of all that gives worth to human existence! Do not confuse with a state of annihilation (and non-existence so that there is no longer an actual personal perception) for olethros signifies an unavoidable, very real experience of distress and torment! The destruction Paul warns about is a time of unavoidable distress, disaster and ruin. This destruction will not be a loss of being but rather a loss of well-being. The idea of olethros is to suffer the loss of all that gives worth to existence.

Isa 66:24 Picture, figurative, image language...

Their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched (comp. Mark 9:44, 46, 48). It cannot be by chance that the evangelical prophet concludes his glorious prophecy with this terrible note of warning. Either he was divinely directed thus to terminate his teaching, or he felt the need that there was of his emphasizing all the many warnings dispersed throughout his "book" by a final, never-to-be-forgotten picture. The undying worm and the quenchless fire - images introduced by him - became appropriated thenceforth to the final condition of impenitent sinners (Jud. 16:17; Ecclus. 7:17), and were even adopted by our Lord himself in the same connection (Mark 9.). The incongruity of the two images shows that they are not to be understood literally; but both alike imply everlasting continuance, and are incompatible with either of the two modern heresies of universalism or annihilationism.

What he emphasises is the eternal antagonism between the righteousness of God and man’s unrighteousness, and this involves the punishment of the latter as long as it exists. In any case there is a strange solemnity in this being the last word of the prophet’s book of revelation, even as there is a like awfulness in the picture of the final judgment, which appears in Matthew 25:46, at all but the close of our Lord’s public teaching. Cheyne quotes a singular rubric of the Jewish ritual, that when this chapter, or Ecclesiastes 12, or Malachi 3, was read in the synagogue, the last verse but one should be repeated after the last, so that mercy might appear as in the end triumphant after and over judgment.

Verse 24
This verse describes a terrible scene. It refers to the deep narrow valley called Hinnom. This valley is near to *Jerusalem, on the south side. (The *New Testament uses the *Greek word Gehenna for the *Hebrew word Hinnom – see Matthew 10:28). In the Hinnom Valley, two wicked kings of Israel burned their sons as a *sacrifice to false gods (Ahaz, see 2 Chronicles 28:3; Manasseh, see 2 Chronicles 33:6). And other people copied this wicked behaviour (see Jeremiah 7:32; 19:5-6; 32:35).
· Later, the inhabitants of *Jerusalem threw their rubbish into the Hinnom Valley. What worms did not eat, fire destroyed. The fire never went out. Soon, what happened became powerful picture language to describe Hell. Jesus uses this verse, to mean ‘to *destroy totally’ (see Mark 9:48). Isaiah 66:24 is describing those people who refuse to serve God. They refuse to obey God’s instructions. But God is the origin of life. So these people have removed themselves from the God who gave them life. The verse describes their punishment as the extreme opposite of life. They have brought about their own terrible punishment. And that punishment is death that lasts for all time. (See Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10.)

Isaiah 66:24. And they shall go forth — Namely, those who had joined themselves to the communion of the church spoken of in the preceding verses; and look upon the carcasses of the men that have sinned against me — Meaning chiefly the unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ and his gospel, including, however, all impenitent sinners, and especially all the enemies and persecutors of God’s truth and people. By looking upon their carcasses is meant beholding the dreadful vengeance taken on them. This is here represented in figurative language. The misery is described by an allusion to the frightful spectacle of a field of battle covered with the carcasses of the slain, which lie rotting upon the ground, full of worms, crawling about them, and feeding on them. It seems the Lord, by his prophet, first intends to set forth the dreadful temporal calamities that should come upon the Jews, in the destruction of their city and nation by the Romans; in which destruction, as has been intimated in the note on Isaiah 66:16, not less than between two and three millions, first and last, were cut off by the sword, famine, and pestilence. But when it is added, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, it is certain the punishment of the wicked in the world to come is chiefly intended. These words, it is well known, are applied by our Saviour, (Mark 9:44,) to express the everlasting punishment of the wicked in Gehenna, or hell, so called, in allusion to the valley of Hinnom, the place where the idolatrous Jews celebrated that horrible rite of making their children pass through the fire, that is, of burning them in sacrifice to Moloch; concerning which place see note Isaiah 30:33. “Our Saviour,” says Bishop Lowth, expressed the state of the blessed by sensible images; such as paradise, Abraham’s bosom, or, which is the same thing, a place to recline next to Abraham at table, in the kingdom of heaven; (see Matthew 8:11; John 13:23;) for we could not possibly have any conception of it, but by analogy from worldly objects: in like manner he expressed the place of torment under the image of Gehenna; and the punishment of the wicked by the worm, which there preyed on the carcasses, and the fire, which consumed the wretched victims. Marking, however, in the strongest manner, the difference between Gehenna and the invisible place of torment: namely, that in the former, the suffering is transient; the worm itself, that preys on the body, dies: whereas, in the figurative Gehenna, the instruments of punishment shall be everlasting, and the suffering without end; for there the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. “These emblematical images, expressing heaven and hell, were in use among the Jews before our Saviour’s time; and in using them, he complied with their notions. Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God, says the Jew to our Saviour, Luke 14:15. And, in regard to Gehenna, the Chaldee paraphrast renders everlasting, or continual burnings, by the Gehenna of everlasting fire. And before this time the son of Sirach (Sir 7:17) had said, The vengeance of the ungodly is fire and worms. So likewise the author of the book of Judith, ‘Wo to the nation rising up against my kindred, the Lord Almighty will take vengeance on them in the day of judgment, putting fire and worms in their flesh:’ Jdt 16:17, manifestly referring to the same emblem.”
ATP.

What makes make a commentator correct? It's just his opinion. It doesn't make sense to me that say that Gehenna, which is a literal place, is figurative and that the Lake of Fire from a book full of symbolism s and figurative language is real.

The only reason I see why one would say Isaiah 66 is figurative is if they have a preconceived doctrine that to protect which I would submit is the case with the commentator.

The whole annihilation argument is fallacious. a person doesn't have to be totally annihilated to not exist. However, even if annihilation was the case God certainly could annihilate people if He chose to. The fire that comes from God is not like normal fire.

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. (1Ki 18:36-38 KJV)

Stones don't burn but this fire consumed stone. Ashes are the remains of fire, yet this fire consumed the ashes. It consumed everything.
 

JimParker

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Butch5 said:
Jim,

This is talking about the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:37-38 KJV)


I'm not attempting to make the word "aionios" mean two different things. I'm suggesting that it doesn't mean eternal.





How about accepting the Scripture over all three of them. Jesus spoke of "aionios" punishment in Mathew 25 and that punishment was "aionios" fire.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mat 25:41-46 KJV)

Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrha are an example of "aionios" fire.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)

Now, one only has to look to the Middle East to see if those two cities are still burning today. Clearly they are not, thus "aionios" fire is not eternal fire. There are numerous places in the Scriptures where Owlam and aion are used of things that end. A thing that ends obviously is not eternal.
<< This is talking about the resurrection.>>

That is the context of Jesus comments. But, He said "God is the God Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the living, not of the dead." The clear inference is that Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are among the living. (Though, obviously, bot bodily.

Also, Moses, whom God told Joshuah was dead, appeared at the transfiguration in conversation with Jesus. Unconscious people do not carry on conversations.

Further, after naming a host of deceased heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, the author states, "Since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses..." They cannot be witnesses if they are not conscious.

<<Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)>>

Indeed it is! And that does nothing to correct your erroneous interpretation of the word "eternal" in Mat 25:41 where you want to make it mean one thing at the beginning of the sentence and a totally different thing a few words later.

<<Now, one only has to look to the Middle East to see if those two cities are still burning today.>>

Yes, the word can be used for a temporary situation.

That is linguistically impossible at Mat 25:41.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
ATP.

What makes make a commentator correct? It's just his opinion. It doesn't make sense to me that say that Gehenna, which is a literal place, is figurative and that the Lake of Fire from a book full of symbolism s and figurative language is real.

The only reason I see why one would say Isaiah 66 is figurative is if they have a preconceived doctrine that to protect which I would submit is the case with the commentator.

Aren't you a commentator in your own way though. Just a thought.

Butch5 said:
The whole annihilation argument is fallacious. a person doesn't have to be totally annihilated to not exist. However, even if annihilation was the case God certainly could annihilate people if He chose to. The fire that comes from God is not like normal fire.

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. (1Ki 18:36-38 KJV)

Stones don't burn but this fire consumed stone. Ashes are the remains of fire, yet this fire consumed the ashes. It consumed everything.
Yeah, but a spirit doesn't have a material substance. You also put aside 2 Thess 1:9 NLT.
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
Aren't you a commentator in your own way though. Just a thought.


Yeah, but a spirit doesn't have a material substance. You also put aside 2 Thess 1:9 NLT.
Yes, in a sense we are all commentators. That's why everything we say has to be checked against Scripture. If what we say doesn't align with Scripture it's obviously incorrect.

What does a spirit not being material substance have to do with the fire? People aren't spirits, they are flesh.

How have put aside 2 Thess 1:9? It speaks of aionios destruction.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
What does a spirit not being material substance have to do with the fire? People aren't spirits, they are flesh.
People aren't spirits? What do you mean.

Butch5 said:
How have put aside 2 Thess 1:9? It speaks of aionios destruction.
It speaks of olethros destruction.
 

Butch5

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JimParker said:
<< This is talking about the resurrection.>>

That is the context of Jesus comments. But, He said "God is the God Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the living, not of the dead." The clear inference is that Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are among the living. (Though, obviously, bot bodily.

Also, Moses, whom God told Joshuah was dead, appeared at the transfiguration in conversation with Jesus. Unconscious people do not carry on conversations.

Further, after naming a host of deceased heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, the author states, "Since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses..." They cannot be witnesses if they are not conscious.

<<Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)>>

Indeed it is! And that does nothing to correct your erroneous interpretation of the word "eternal" in Mat 25:41 where you want to make it mean one thing at the beginning of the sentence and a totally different thing a few words later.

<<Now, one only has to look to the Middle East to see if those two cities are still burning today.>>

Yes, the word can be used for a temporary situation.

That is linguistically impossible at Mat 25:41.
[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]
That is the context of Jesus comments. But, He said "God is the God Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the living, not of the dead." The clear inference is that Jesus is saying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are among the living. (Though, obviously, bot bodily.
[SIZE=10pt]Jim, this assumes they are alive, it doesn’t prove it. Jesus statement speaks of those who partake in the resurrection to life, they will live. The living and the dead a classes of people, it doesn’t necessarily speak to their current physical condition. Jesus uses this language elsewhere.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]21[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Mat 8:21-22 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Here Jesus refers to people who are obviously alive, as “the dead.” He’s not speaking to their physical state as literally dead people can’t bury each other.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Also, Jesus said,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:37-38 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]“For all live unto him” shows that Jesus is speaking from God’s perspective all live. He’s not saying all are literally alive.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]
Also, Moses, whom God told Joshuah was dead, appeared at the transfiguration in conversation with Jesus. Unconscious people do not carry on conversations.
[SIZE=10pt]In Mathew Jesus said that event was a vision.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]
Further, after naming a host of deceased heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, the author states, "Since we are surrounded by such a cloud of witnesses..." They cannot be witnesses if they are not conscious.
[SIZE=10pt]They also couldn’t be a literal witness unless they came back and spoke to people. Their life is a witness. Just as the Bible is a witness to the events of the first century which are contained in it.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]
Indeed it is! And that does nothing to correct your erroneous interpretation of the word "eternal" in Mat 25:41
where you want to make it mean one thing at the beginning of the sentence and a totally different thing a few words later.

[SIZE=10pt]Again, I’m not trying to change the meaning of the word at all. It doesn’t mean eternal either time.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]
Yes, the word can be used for a temporary situation.
[SIZE=10pt]That is linguistically impossible at Mat 25:41http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Mat 25.41.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Since the word is used of things that end it cannot mean eternal, therefore it is “linguistically impossible” to say that it means eternal in Mathew 25.[/SIZE]
ATP said:
People aren't spirits? What do you mean.


It speaks of olethros destruction.
People aren't spirits. Gen 2:7 tells us that God created the man from the dust of the ground. Man is dust. It says that God then breathed the breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. So, a living soul as it pertains to humans is a flesh man with the breath/spirit of life within Him. We know that this breath/spirit is from God because He breathed it into the man. Solomon tells us in Ecc. 3 that both man and animals all have "one" breath. We know from Gen 2:7 that that breath is God's. We also know from Ecc. that when a man dies the spirit returns to God and the man (flesh) returns to the dust.

In Ezekiel 37 we have a picture of the resurrection when God tells Israel that He will raise them up and bring them into the land. In that passage God states to Israel, 'I will put MY breath/spirit into you and you will live.' Man only has one spirit in him and we can see clearly that that spirit is God's. Thus I mus conclude that man is dust as the Scriptures say.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.(Eze 37:13-14 KJV)


Olethros is destruction.
 

JimParker

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Mar 31, 2015
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Butch5 said:
[SIZE=10pt]Jim, this assumes they are alive, it doesn’t prove it. Jesus statement speaks of those who partake in the resurrection to life, they will live. The living and the dead a classes of people, it doesn’t necessarily speak to their current physical condition. Jesus uses this language elsewhere.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]21[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Mat 8:21-22 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Here Jesus refers to people who are obviously alive, as “the dead.” He’s not speaking to their physical state as literally dead people can’t bury each other.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Also, Jesus said,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:37-38 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]“For all live unto him” shows that Jesus is speaking from God’s perspective all live. He’s not saying all are literally alive.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]In Mathew Jesus said that event was a vision.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]They also couldn’t be a literal witness unless they came back and spoke to people. Their life is a witness. Just as the Bible is a witness to the events of the first century which are contained in it.[/SIZE]




where you want to make it mean one thing at the beginning of the sentence and a totally different thing a few words later.

[SIZE=10pt]Again, I’m not trying to change the meaning of the word at all. It doesn’t mean eternal either time.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]That is linguistically impossible at Mat 25:41http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Mat 25.41.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Since the word is used of things that end it cannot mean eternal, therefore it is “linguistically impossible” to say that it means eternal in Mathew 25.[/SIZE]


People aren't spirits. Gen 2:7 tells us that God created the man from the dust of the ground. Man is dust. It says that God then breathed the breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. So, a living soul as it pertains to humans is a flesh man with the breath/spirit of life within Him. We know that this breath/spirit is from God because He breathed it into the man. Solomon tells us in Ecc. 3 that both man and animals all have "one" breath. We know from Gen 2:7 that that breath is God's. We also know from Ecc. that when a man dies the spirit returns to God and the man (flesh) returns to the dust.

In Ezekiel 37 we have a picture of the resurrection when God tells Israel that He will raise them up and bring them into the land. In that passage God states to Israel, 'I will put MY breath/spirit into you and you will live.' Man only has one spirit in him and we can see clearly that that spirit is God's. Thus I mus conclude that man is dust as the Scriptures say.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.(Eze 37:13-14 KJV)


Olethros is destruction.
<< [SIZE=10pt]Jesus statement speaks of those who partake in the resurrection to life, they will live. >>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]How about this statement of Jesus: “[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]” (John 11:26)[/SIZE] Well? Do you believe it?

<<[SIZE=10pt] “For all live unto him” shows that Jesus is speaking from God’s perspective all live. He’s not saying all are literally alive. >>[/SIZE]

There is no such thing as "literally" alive but "actually" dead. Either you are alive or you are not alive. You cannot be both.

When Peter, John and James saw Moses speaking with Jesus at the transfiguration, was Moses was a dead man talking? No, he was not. He was not "in the body" (2Co 12:2) but he was definitely alive as were the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in the illustration which Jesus gave. (Luke 16:20-31)

Are the cloud of witnesses who surround us dead and nor conscious? They could not be witnesses if they cannot see and hear.

<<[SIZE=10pt]In Mathew Jesus said that event was a vision.>>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Citation please.[/SIZE]

<< [SIZE=10pt]Again, I’m not trying to change the meaning of the word at all. It doesn’t mean eternal either time.>>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]So when Jesus sends the blessed[/SIZE] into eternal life, it is not eternal? That makes no sense whatsoever.

What does the word "eternal" mean to you since it does not mean "eternal"?

What was Jesus talking about in John 3:16 when HE said, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aiōnios) life."

Just out of curiosity, were did you study Koine Greek that you know better than every orthodox Bible translator and commentator?

<<Man is dust. It says that God then breathed the breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. So, a living soul as it pertains to humans is a flesh man with the breath/spirit of life within Him.>>

So you are a 7th Day Adventist and believe all the babble that the ignorant, false prophetess Ellen White taught?

IS that what you are peddling? E.G.White's nonsense?
 

Alsett

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Jan 21, 2015
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First off I want to thank Classic Rider for starting off this topic, and for those who have replied with thoughtful comments. I haven't been able to read through all the comments as there are a ton, but hopefully I can read through as many as possible. I would like to make a couple comments on things that I did see, I lost the exact quotes because I went through too many pages but....
1) For the person who thinks that eternally destroying the soul of a person is "evil", I certainly can't imagine that eternal pain would be better than not existing, though as I have not experienced either I guess it is impossible to say for sure. Furthermore, a large majority of non-Christians think that is what happens after life, and in the case of Buddhism is the goal, you cease to exist. So in the case of what Classic Rider is describing, they are punished based on the gravity of their sins and then given exactly what they want. How is that "evil"?
2) This comment is just as much of a question as a comment, but based on Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law". Please tell me if I am taking this out of context, but it seems to me that eternal torture for those who don't even know the truth is not just, and this passage would seem to support that.

I think the fire and brimstone forever punishment is terribly unpopular. Now that doesn't mean it isn't the case, the truth can sometimes be hard to swallow, but if even Christians have a hard time accepting it, maybe that is indicative that we are a little off in our interpretation. I will seek the truth that is given from the spirit on this one and let you know if I have any insights.