12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[ATP]

People aren't spirits. Gen 2:7 tells us that God created the man from the dust of the ground. Man is dust. It says that God then breathed the breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. So, a living soul as it pertains to humans is a flesh man with the breath/spirit of life within Him. We know that this breath/spirit is from God because He breathed it into the man. Solomon tells us in Ecc. 3 that both man and animals all have "one" breath. We know from Gen 2:7 that that breath is God's. We also know from Ecc. that when a man dies the spirit returns to God and the man (flesh) returns to the dust.

In Ezekiel 37 we have a picture of the resurrection when God tells Israel that He will raise them up and bring them into the land. In that passage God states to Israel, 'I will put MY breath/spirit into you and you will live.' Man only has one spirit in him and we can see clearly that that spirit is God's. Thus I mus conclude that man is dust as the Scriptures say.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.(Eze 37:13-14 KJV)

But the devil and the false prophet are spirits. There is no flesh upon them, yet they will be annihilated in the lake of fire along with nonbelievers? How can it be.

Olethros is destruction.

2 Thess 1:9 NLT. Can we prove that olethros means annihilation.

but it seems to me that eternal torture for those who don't even know the truth is not just, and this passage would seem to support that.

Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I think the fire and brimstone forever punishment is terribly unpopular. Now that doesn't mean it isn't the case, the truth can sometimes be hard to swallow, but if even Christians have a hard time accepting it, maybe that is indicative that we are a little off in our interpretation. I will seek the truth that is given from the spirit on this one and let you know if I have any insights.

So what do you think, eternal torment or annihilation. - ATP

 

[Butch5]

But the devil and the false prophet are spirits. There is no flesh upon them, yet they will be annihilated in the lake of fire along with nonbelievers? How can it be.


2 Thess 1:9 NLT. Can we prove that olethros means annihilation.

ATP

Why couldn't it be? God created the devil and the false prophet, why can't He destroy them?

Why does olethros have to mean annihilation? If God takes back his spirit and the man returns to the dust isn't he destroyed?

 

[ATP]

Why couldn't it be? God created the devil and the false prophet, why can't He destroy them?

That's a good point, but I do believe Isa 66:24 is picture language to describe the LOF. You're argument doesn't confirm enough proof to think otherwise.

Why does olethros have to mean annihilation? If God takes back his spirit and the man returns to the dust isn't he destroyed?

Olethros does not mean annihilation is what I'm saying.

If God takes back his spirit and the man returns to the dust isn't he destroyed?

I would say no. Rev 20:5 NIV (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Notice it says they came back to life.

When Peter, John and James saw Moses speaking with Jesus at the transfiguration, was Moses was a dead man talking? No, he was not. He was not "in the body" (2Co 12:2) but he was definitely alive as were the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in the illustration which Jesus gave. (Luke 16:20-31)

Hi Jim. I would submit that Moses wasn't alive. Rather, it was simply a vision about the second coming of Jesus. Moses represents the dead in Christ, Elijah represents those caught up in rapture and Jesus represents himself glorified.

as were the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in the illustration which Jesus gave. (Luke 16:20-31)

Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.

 

[Butch5]

<< [SIZE=10pt]Jesus statement speaks of those who partake in the resurrection to life, they will live. >>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]How about this statement of Jesus: “[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]” (John 11:26)[/SIZE] Well? Do you believe it?

<<[SIZE=10pt] “For all live unto him” shows that Jesus is speaking from God’s perspective all live. He’s not saying all are literally alive. >>[/SIZE]

There is no such thing as "literally" alive but "actually" dead. Either you are alive or you are not alive. You cannot be both.

When Peter, John and James saw Moses speaking with Jesus at the transfiguration, was Moses was a dead man talking? No, he was not. He was not "in the body" (2Co 12:2) but he was definitely alive as were the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in the illustration which Jesus gave. (Luke 16:20-31)

Are the cloud of witnesses who surround us dead and nor conscious? They could not be witnesses if they cannot see and hear.

<<[SIZE=10pt]In Mathew Jesus said that event was a vision.>>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Citation please.[/SIZE]

<< [SIZE=10pt]Again, I’m not trying to change the meaning of the word at all. It doesn’t mean eternal either time.>>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]So when Jesus sends the blessed[/SIZE] into eternal life, it is not eternal? That makes no sense whatsoever.

What does the word "eternal" mean to you since it does not mean "eternal"?

What was Jesus talking about in John 3:16 when HE said, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aiōnios) life."

Just out of curiosity, were did you study Koine Greek that you know better than every orthodox Bible translator and commentator?

<<Man is dust. It says that God then breathed the breath or spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. So, a living soul as it pertains to humans is a flesh man with the breath/spirit of life within Him.>>

So you are a 7th Day Adventist and believe all the babble that the ignorant, false prophetess Ellen White taught?

IS that what you are peddling? E.G.White's nonsense?

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

How about this statement of Jesus: “ [SIZE=10pt]And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?[/SIZE]” (John 11:26) Well? Do you believe it?

[SIZE=10pt]Yes Jim, I believe it. But, we need the rest of it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]25[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Joh 11:25-26 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Again, Jesus is speaking of the resurrection. Notice He says, “though he were dead, yet shall he live.” So, we have a guy who was dead and then he lives. He continues, “whosoever liveth” the guy who was dead and is now alive (resurrected) and “believeth in me shall never die” It’s the guy who has been resurrected and believes in Christ that will never die. Remember, all will be resurrected but only those who believe will never die. [/SIZE]

There is no such thing as "literally" alive but "actually" dead. Either you are alive or you are not alive. You cannot be both.

[SIZE=10pt]I agree. The point is that from God’s perspective all are live. God has the power to and will raise all from the dead. However, that doesn’t mean that the dead are alive now. [/SIZE]

When Peter, John and James saw Moses speaking with Jesus at the transfiguration, was Moses was a dead man talking? No, he was not. He was not "in the body" (2Co 12:2) but he was definitely alive as were the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham in the illustration which Jesus gave. (Luke 16:20-31)

[SIZE=10pt]Jim, Jesus states plainly that what happened on the mountain was a vision.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]If it was actually Moses and he wasn’t in a body, why do you suppose Peter wanted to make a tabernacle for him? A ghost wouldn’t need a tabernacle.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man has been addressed in this thread already. I submit that it is about the demise of the priesthood and not about the afterlife.[/SIZE]

Are the cloud of witnesses who surround us dead and nor conscious? They could not be witnesses if they cannot see and hear.

[SIZE=10pt]Jim, if these are ghosts, who are they witnessing to? I don’t know of people who have spoken to Moses or Abraham or Gideon, etc. In Hebrews 11 Paul describes what they did by faith that is the witness. Men of old who remained faithful.[/SIZE]

Citation please.

[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)[/SIZE]

So when Jesus sends the blessed into eternal life, it is not eternal? That makes no sense whatsoever. [SIZE=10pt]What does the word "eternal" mean to you since it does not mean "eternal"? [/SIZE] What was Jesus talking about in John 3:16 when HE said, “[SIZE=10pt]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting[/SIZE] (aiōnios) [SIZE=10pt]life.[/SIZE]"

[SIZE=10pt] Young’s Literal translation uses the term “age-during.” The word aionios is the adjective form of the word aion. Aion means an age. An age is just length of time that is not defined by the definition. It must be defined by other parameters. Scientists today use the word as in the bronze age or the iron age etc. The length of the age is defined by something outside of the definition, in this case the length of time these metals had priority. So, if something says “aionios” life there needs to be something to define that time.[/SIZE]

Just out of curiosity, were did you study Koine Greek that you know better than every orthodox Bible translator and commentator?

[SIZE=10pt]It’s not a study of Greek that shows aionios doesn’t mean eternal, it’s Scripture. There are ordinances of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, Owlam in the Hebrew and aion in Greek. However, Paul and Jesus both said that the law came to an end. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]KJV [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Leviticus 7:34[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev 7:34 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]According to this passage this ordinance of the Mosaic Law and Aaronic priesthood is an ordinance forever, however, Jesus said the Law and the prophets were until John. Paul said the Law had been done away with and the priesthood had changed. Christ in the high priest now. So, there’s no way that ordinance can be forever. There are more of those ordinances in Mosaic Law that in the English are said to be forever, yet can’t be.[/SIZE]

So you are a 7th Day Adventist and believe all the babble that the ignorant, false prophetess Ellen White taught? IS that what you are peddling? E.G.White's nonsense?p

[SIZE=10pt]No, I’m not 7th Day Adventist and I don’t know about E.G. White. I do however; know what the Scriptures say about this subject and where this idea, that man lives one after death, came from. It’s source is Greek Philosophy and has its roots with Plato. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]What I gave you was directly from the Scriptures in Gen 2. You won’t find a single passage of Scripture that says man “IS” a spirit. God said man is dust.[/SIZE]

That's a good point, but I do believe Isa 66:24 is picture language to describe the LOF. You're argument doesn't confirm enough proof to think otherwise.


Olethros does not mean annihilation is what I'm saying.


I would say no. Rev 20:5 NIV (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Notice it says they came back to life.

Hi ATP,

I'm puzzles that you see Isaiah as figurative yet take the figurative book literally. I think there is enough proof if we understand that man if flesh and not spirit. If man is flesh then it would seem most certainly that the Lake of fire is on the earth. I submit that man doesn't leave the earth. You said you don't think the Lake of Fire is on earth. I don't recall any Scripture giving the location so why do you believe that?



Yes, they come back together. Ezekiel 37 gives an example of the resurrection and in it we see how God puts people back together and puts "HIS" breath back into them. If they're not destroyed there would be no need to put them back together.

 

[ATP]

I'm puzzles that you see Isaiah as figurative yet take the figurative book literally.

But the book of Matthew isn't figurative, yet Jesus used Gehenna to describe the LOF.

Day and night is eternal language in Rev 20:10. If you're not sure of the ages of the ages being eternal then day and night confirms it. John could of simply not used day and night, but that he did.

You said you don't think the Lake of Fire is on earth. I don't recall any Scripture giving the location so why do you believe that?

Similar to how we know Jesus is in the third heaven.
We can't see the third heaven, but we know it's there.
Correct. I don't believe there is scripture that specifies a LOF location.

Yes, they come back together. Ezekiel 37 gives an example of the resurrection and in it we see how God puts people back together and puts "HIS" breath back into them. If they're not destroyed there would be no need to put them back together.

So if God puts his breath back into nonbelievers at the GWT, then why would he take it out of them twice. He judges them at the GWT only to take His breath out again? :unsure:

 

[JimParker]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]Yes Jim, I believe it. But, we need the rest of it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]25[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Joh 11:25-26 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Again, Jesus is speaking of the resurrection. Notice He says, “though he were dead, yet shall he live.” So, we have a guy who was dead and then he lives. He continues, “whosoever liveth” the guy who was dead and is now alive (resurrected) and “believeth in me shall never die” It’s the guy who has been resurrected and believes in Christ that will never die. Remember, all will be resurrected but only those who believe will never die. [/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]I agree. The point is that from God’s perspective all are live. God has the power to and will raise all from the dead. However, that doesn’t mean that the dead are alive now. [/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]Jim, Jesus states plainly that what happened on the mountain was a vision.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]If it was actually Moses and he wasn’t in a body, why do you suppose Peter wanted to make a tabernacle for him? A ghost wouldn’t need a tabernacle.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man has been addressed in this thread already. I submit that it is about the demise of the priesthood and not about the afterlife.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]Jim, if these are ghosts, who are they witnessing to? I don’t know of people who have spoken to Moses or Abraham or Gideon, etc. In Hebrews 11 Paul describes what they did by faith that is the witness. Men of old who remained faithful.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)[/SIZE]







[SIZE=10pt] Young’s Literal translation uses the term “age-during.” The word aionios is the adjective form of the word aion. Aion means an age. An age is just length of time that is not defined by the definition. It must be defined by other parameters. Scientists today use the word as in the bronze age or the iron age etc. The length of the age is defined by something outside of the definition, in this case the length of time these metals had priority. So, if something says “aionios” life there needs to be something to define that time.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]It’s not a study of Greek that shows aionios doesn’t mean eternal, it’s Scripture. There are ordinances of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, Owlam in the Hebrew and aion in Greek. However, Paul and Jesus both said that the law came to an end. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]KJV [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Leviticus 7:34[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev 7:34 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]According to this passage this ordinance of the Mosaic Law and Aaronic priesthood is an ordinance forever, however, Jesus said the Law and the prophets were until John. Paul said the Law had been done away with and the priesthood had changed. Christ in the high priest now. So, there’s no way that ordinance can be forever. There are more of those ordinances in Mosaic Law that in the English are said to be forever, yet can’t be.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]No, I’m not 7th Day Adventist and I don’t know about E.G. White. I do however; know what the Scriptures say about this subject and where this idea, that man lives one after death, came from. It’s source is Greek Philosophy and has its roots with Plato. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]What I gave you was directly from the Scriptures in Gen 2. You won’t find a single passage of Scripture that says man “IS” a spirit. God said man is dust.[/SIZE]

Hi ATP,

I'm puzzles that you see Isaiah as figurative yet take the figurative book literally. I think there is enough proof if we understand that man if flesh and not spirit. If man is flesh then it would seem most certainly that the Lake of fire is on the earth. I submit that man doesn't leave the earth. You said you don't think the Lake of Fire is on earth. I don't recall any Scripture giving the location so why do you believe that?



Yes, they come back together. Ezekiel 37 gives an example of the resurrection and in it we see how God puts people back together and puts "HIS" breath back into them. If they're not destroyed there would be no need to put them back together.

<<[SIZE=10pt]Jesus is speaking of the resurrection.>>[/SIZE]

"[SIZE=10pt]whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"[/SIZE]

That is NOT speaking of the resurrection. The resurrection has to do with the body only. And, no, the body is NOT the soul.

<<[SIZE=10pt]If it was actually Moses and he wasn’t in a body, why do you suppose Peter wanted to make a tabernacle for him?>>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](sigh) Please read the rest of the passage[/SIZE].

Mar 9:6 For he (Peter) did not know what to say, for they were exceedingly afraid.

In other words, Peter was babbling. Real Christians don't make doctrine out of what Peter said when he didn't know what he was talking about. That's what scoundrels and frauds do. I don't think that includes you.

<<[SIZE=10pt]It’s not a study of Greek that shows aionios doesn’t mean eternal, it’s Scripture.>.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Ok, so you haven't studied Greek.[/SIZE]

<<[SIZE=10pt]There are ordinances of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, Owlam in the Hebrew and aion in Greek. However, Paul and Jesus both said that the law came to an end. >>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Please don't make stuff up.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]What Jesus said was: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."[/SIZE] ([SIZE=10pt]Mat 5:18[/SIZE]) Since we are all still inhabiting the earth which is floating in the heavens, nothing has passed from the law. It's still a sin to oppress the widow and stranger. It's still a sin to oppress the poor. It's still a sin to be a drunkard. (Unless you attend a church that promotes those behaviors!)

<<[SIZE=10pt]Paul said the Law had been done away with and the priesthood had changed.>>[/SIZE]

We have a new covenant. That does not mean that the Old Covenant did not have laws, regulations, stipulations that are not still applicable today. It just means that we are no longer required to keep all of the law in order to prosper and live long in the land which God will give us.

The only things that have changed are the sacrificial or ceremonial regulations. The Arronic priesthood is essentially gone (though they are still functioning in Samaria) and the necessity for the sacrifice of animals is gone. But the laws which tell us that we are to act in mercy and love toward all of mankind still stand in Jesus command to love God and love our neighbors.

At any rate, you STILL cannot translate the same word, used in the same sentence, two different ways.

[SIZE=10pt]The church has never accepted the heresy that the wicked dead are annihilated. Your defense of that old heresy is just as wrong today as it was many centuries ago.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]<<You won’t find a single passage of Scripture that says man “IS” a spirit. God said man is dust.>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]I never suggested that man is a spirit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]God made man's body from the dust of the earth. But the scriptures repeatedly state that man HAS a spirit. (Unless you are going to recite the absurd SDA teaching that the spirit is a person's breath.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]Yes Jim, I believe it. But, we need the rest of it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]25[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Joh 11:25-26 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Again, Jesus is speaking of the resurrection. Notice He says, “though he were dead, yet shall he live.” So, we have a guy who was dead and then he lives. He continues, “whosoever liveth” the guy who was dead and is now alive (resurrected) and “believeth in me shall never die” It’s the guy who has been resurrected and believes in Christ that will never die. Remember, all will be resurrected but only those who believe will never die. [/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]I agree. The point is that from God’s perspective all are live. God has the power to and will raise all from the dead. However, that doesn’t mean that the dead are alive now. [/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]Jim, Jesus states plainly that what happened on the mountain was a vision.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]If it was actually Moses and he wasn’t in a body, why do you suppose Peter wanted to make a tabernacle for him? A ghost wouldn’t need a tabernacle.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man has been addressed in this thread already. I submit that it is about the demise of the priesthood and not about the afterlife.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]Jim, if these are ghosts, who are they witnessing to? I don’t know of people who have spoken to Moses or Abraham or Gideon, etc. In Hebrews 11 Paul describes what they did by faith that is the witness. Men of old who remained faithful.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:3-9 KJV)[/SIZE]







[SIZE=10pt] Young’s Literal translation uses the term “age-during.” The word aionios is the adjective form of the word aion. Aion means an age. An age is just length of time that is not defined by the definition. It must be defined by other parameters. Scientists today use the word as in the bronze age or the iron age etc. The length of the age is defined by something outside of the definition, in this case the length of time these metals had priority. So, if something says “aionios” life there needs to be something to define that time.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]It’s not a study of Greek that shows aionios doesn’t mean eternal, it’s Scripture. There are ordinances of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, Owlam in the Hebrew and aion in Greek. However, Paul and Jesus both said that the law came to an end. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]KJV [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Leviticus 7:34[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev 7:34 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]According to this passage this ordinance of the Mosaic Law and Aaronic priesthood is an ordinance forever, however, Jesus said the Law and the prophets were until John. Paul said the Law had been done away with and the priesthood had changed. Christ in the high priest now. So, there’s no way that ordinance can be forever. There are more of those ordinances in Mosaic Law that in the English are said to be forever, yet can’t be.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=10pt]No, I’m not 7th Day Adventist and I don’t know about E.G. White. I do however; know what the Scriptures say about this subject and where this idea, that man lives one after death, came from. It’s source is Greek Philosophy and has its roots with Plato. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]What I gave you was directly from the Scriptures in Gen 2. You won’t find a single passage of Scripture that says man “IS” a spirit. God said man is dust.[/SIZE]

Hi ATP,

I'm puzzles that you see Isaiah as figurative yet take the figurative book literally. I think there is enough proof if we understand that man if flesh and not spirit. If man is flesh then it would seem most certainly that the Lake of fire is on the earth. I submit that man doesn't leave the earth. You said you don't think the Lake of Fire is on earth. I don't recall any Scripture giving the location so why do you believe that?



Yes, they come back together. Ezekiel 37 gives an example of the resurrection and in it we see how God puts people back together and puts "HIS" breath back into them. If they're not destroyed there would be no need to put them back together.

[SIZE=10pt]<< However, that doesn’t mean that the dead are alive now. [/SIZE]>>

No it does not. But the Bible, in its entirety teaches that, in some manner, the dead are alive and conscious even as their bodies decay.

It is only the body that will require resurrection, not the spirit or soul. (And, yes, i realize that those terms are not specifically defined.)

If you don't want to know that, it's OK by me.

Enjoy. (Just don't expect to be taken seriously.)

 

[ATP]

No it does not. But the Bible, in its entirety teaches that, in some manner, the dead are alive and conscious even as their bodies decay.

It is only the body that will require resurrection, not the spirit or soul. (And, yes, i realize that those terms are not specifically defined.)

If you don't want to know that, it's OK by me.

Enjoy. (Just don't expect to be taken seriously.)

How does that work though. How do we walk and talk in the third heaven as "breath".?

 

[JimParker]

How does that work though. How do we walk and talk in the third heaven as "breath".?

<<How do we walk and talk in the third heaven as "breath".?>>

What are you talking about???? :wacko: Please explain.

 

[ATP]

<<How do we walk and talk in the third heaven as "breath".?>>

What are you talking about???? :wacko: Please explain.

You believe when we die our spirits go to live with the Lord between death and the first resurrection, correct?

 

[JimParker]

You believe when we die our spirits go to live with the Lord between death and the first resurrection, correct?

<<You believe when we die our spirits go to live with the Lord between death and the first resurrection, correct?>>

No.

Please answer my question.

What do you mean by "How do we walk and talk in the third heaven as "breath"?"

 

[ATP]

<<You believe when we die our spirits go to live with the Lord between death and the first resurrection, correct?>>

No.

Please answer my question.

What do you mean by "How do we walk and talk in the third heaven as "breath"?"

To sum it up, our spirit is considered the breath of God breathed into us Gen 2:7.
He gives it to us Gen 2:7, then takes it back when we die Eccl 12:7, then gives it to us again at the first resurrection Rev 20:4.
Only at the first resurrection is when we're able to walk and talk again and live with God.
I would submit that we are unable to see God until we obtain our glorified bodies at the first resurrection Ex 33:20.

 

[Alsett]

But the devil and the false prophet are spirits. There is no flesh upon them, yet they will be annihilated in the lake of fire along with nonbelievers? How can it be.



2 Thess 1:9 NLT. Can we prove that olethros means annihilation.

Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.



So what do you think, eternal torment or annihilation. - ATP

I think certainly the fact that God exists yes is evident, but apart from that I think there is much about God that is not fully understood. The very fact that there are pages of forums dedicated to debating/ discussing interpretation I think is evidence of that. There are also plenty of people that are dedicated to a god, who have simply been misled, eternal torment to for that seems a bit harsh. If we recieve our moral compass from the spirit (obviously keeping in mind that we should look to God's word) that should at the very least give us pause.

As far as what I think, I want to look at more perspectives before I say anything for sure. Honestly up until yesterday my thoughts were more towards hell as being an eternal separation from God, primarily due to the fact that they are not forgiven and cannot stand in the face of God without being destroyed. Because I am saved I haven't put much thought into it, but after some conversations with non-believers recently on what a "loving God" would or wouldn't do, I think this question does need to be considered. At this point however I am leaning more toward annihilation.

I also do realize that I am leaning a lot on my thoughts and feelings which I am trying to get away from and look more toward scripture and logic, but as both sides seem to be using a lot of scripture I'm not entirely sure how to proceed, but thank you for engaging me in the conversation.

 

[ATP]

At this point however I am leaning more toward annihilation.

Thank you for your response, and good afternoon to you.

Ok, so what scripture(s) best fits the annihilation belief.

- ATP

 

[JimParker]

To sum it up, our spirit is considered the breath of God breathed into us Gen 2:7.
He gives it to us Gen 2:7, then takes it back when we die Eccl 12:7, then gives it to us again at the first resurrection Rev 20:4.
Only at the first resurrection is when we're able to walk and talk again and live with God.
I would submit that we are unable to see God until we obtain our glorified bodies at the first resurrection Ex 33:20.

<<our spirit is considered the breath of God breathed into us Gen 2:7.>>

Considered by whom? Certainly not by orthodox Christians.

What do you do with Gen 1:2? "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Did God's "breath" hover over the waters? That doesn't make any sense.

Num 11:25 "Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again."

Can the breath "rest upon" a person? Of course not.

2Sa 23:2 “The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue."

Does inanimate breath speak? No it does not. sentient beings speak.

Isa 11:2 "The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD"

Does breath give anyone wisdom, understanding, counsel, might or the knowledge and fear of the Lord? C Does it make any sense that the unpardonable sin is to blaspheme God's "breath"?

In the Genesis 2:7 description of the forming of man from the earth, the statement that God breathed is an anthropomorphism. God is not a human being or any other kind of mammal, He does not breathe.

Also, the spirit of a (wo)man does things that mere breath cannot do, like rejoice.

And the Spirit of God teaches, can be grieved, leads, etc. Those are not things that "breath" does.

That particular teaching of E.G.White is a great example of how ridiculous her teaching was.

<<Only at the first resurrection is when we're able to walk and talk again and live with God.I would submit that we are unable to see God until we obtain our glorified bodies at the first resurrection Ex 33:20.>>

Really?

Gen 16:13 She (Hagar) gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”

Num 14:14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, LORD, are with these people and that you, LORD, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.

Everyone who saw Jesus, saw God. People who saw Him didn't drop dead.

Steven:

Act 7:55-56 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Yes Steven died, but, not because He saw the Lord, because he had been stoned to death.

And, technically, the first resurrection occurs at baptism.

Rom 6:3-4 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that,
just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[ATP]

<<our spirit is considered the breath of God breathed into us Gen 2:7.>>

Considered by whom? Certainly not by orthodox Christians.

What do you do with Gen 1:2? "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Did God's "breath" hover over the waters? That doesn't make any sense.

Considered by Hebrew and Greek translations. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew word for Spirit in Gen 1:2 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.

Num 11:25 "Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again."

Can the breath "rest upon" a person? Of course not.

The Hebrew word for Spirit in Num 11:25 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.

2Sa 23:2 “The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue."

Does inanimate breath speak? No it does not. sentient beings speak.

The Hebrew word for Spirit in 2 Sam 23:2 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.

Isa 11:2 "The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD"

Does breath give anyone wisdom, understanding, counsel, might or the knowledge and fear of the Lord? C Does it make any sense that the unpardonable sin is to blaspheme God's "breath"?

The Hebrew word for Spirit in Isa 11:2 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.

<<Only at the first resurrection is when we're able to walk and talk again and live with God.I would submit that we are unable to see God until we obtain our glorified bodies at the first resurrection Ex 33:20.>>

Really?

Gen 16:13 She (Hagar) gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”

Num 14:14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, LORD, are with these people and that you, LORD, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.

Everyone who saw Jesus, saw God. People who saw Him didn't drop dead.

Steven:

Act 7:55-56 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Yes Steven died, but, not because He saw the Lord, because he had been stoned to death.

And, technically, the first resurrection occurs at baptism.

Rom 6:3-4 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that,
just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Gen 16:13 - Is refering to God's omniscience, and Hagar seeing God in a vision. Visions were normal back then.

Num 14:14 - Face to face is figurative language that speaks of coming face to face spiritually with the Lord. The Hebrew word for face, scripture uses "ayin" which means eye. I would submit this passage refers to God's omnipresence. He also revealed himself through a cloud.

Acts 7:55-56 - Stephen simply had a vision of heaven, being filled with the HS.
Between death and the first resurrection scripture says we sleep in Jesus. Acts 7:60 NIV, 1 Thess 4:14 NIV.

Rom 6:3-4 - Technically yes, but I'm referring to the resurrection in the afterlife.

- ATP

 

[JimParker]

Considered by Hebrew and Greek translations. The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew word for Spirit in Gen 1:2 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.


The Hebrew word for Spirit in Num 11:25 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.


The Hebrew word for Spirit in 2 Sam 23:2 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.


The Hebrew word for Spirit in Isa 11:2 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.


Gen 16:13 - Is refering to God's omniscience, and Hagar seeing God in a vision. Visions were normal back then.

Num 14:14 - Face to face is figurative language that speaks of coming face to face spiritually with the Lord. The Hebrew word for face, scripture uses "ayin" which means eye. I would submit this passage refers to God's omnipresence. He also revealed himself through a cloud.

Acts 7:55-56 - Stephen simply had a vision of heaven, being filled with the HS.
Between death and the first resurrection scripture says we sleep in Jesus. Acts 7:60 NIV, 1 Thess 4:14 NIV.

Rom 6:3-4 - Technically yes, but I'm referring to the resurrection in the afterlife.

- ATP

<<Considered by Hebrew and Greek translations.>>

What "Hebrew and Greek translations" other than 7th Day Adventist and Jehovah's witnesses? Do they have names?

<<The Hebrew word for Spirit in Gen 1:2 is ruach, meaning breath, wind, spirit.>>

And, in translation, you have to choose the word that MAKES SENSE.

No one's "breath" can rejoice. (Luke 1:47)
It makes no sense to say "I was in the "breath" on the Lord's Day". Rev 1:10
It makes no sense to say:

Gen 6:3 "My breath shall not abide in man for ever,.."
Gen 49:6 "... O my breath, be not joined to their company;
Job 6:4 "For the arrows of the Almighty are in me; my breath drinks their poison;"
Psa 77:6 "I commune with my heart in the night; I meditate and search my breath"
Isa 26:9 "My soul yearns for thee in the night, my breath within me earnestly seeks thee."
Dan 2:3 "And the king said to them, "I had a dream, and my breath is troubled to know the dream."
Zec 6:8 "Then he cried to me, "Behold, those who go toward the north country have set my breath at rest in the north country."

And God is not a human being. He doesn't have "breath" so. to say that God literally has breath or that man's spirit is God's non-existent breath is nonsense.

<<Acts 7:55-56 - Stephen simply had a vision of heaven,>>

That is not what the text says.

Act 7:55=56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

<<Rom 6:3-4 - Technically yes, but I'm referring to the resurrection in the afterlife.>>

"Technically ... but"???? But what??? Either it is or it ain't.

Exactly what is "the resurrection in the afterlife"?

 

[ATP]

<<Considered by Hebrew and Greek translations.>>

What "Hebrew and Greek translations" other than 7th Day Adventist and Jehovah's witnesses? Do they have names?

Jim. You do understand the Holy Bible,
all 66 books were written in Hebrew and Greek right.
Gen 1:2 - http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm

Exactly what is "the resurrection in the afterlife"?

1 Thess 4:13-18 NIV Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Rev 20:4-6 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[JimParker]

Jim. You do understand the Holy Bible,
all 66 books were written in Hebrew and Greek right.
Gen 1:2 - http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm


1 Thess 4:13-18 NIV Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Rev 20:4-6 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

<<all 66 books were written in Hebrew and Greek right.>>

Only 66? Mine has more than that. Just like the KJV of 1611.

Hebrew, Aramaic or Chaldean, (Hebrew had been lost during the Exile. That's why they needed the Greek translation, the Spetuagint) and Koine Greek. (Not classic Greek, the Greek of the market place)

<<http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm>>

Point??

Just because "breath" is ONE of the possible translations of the word, that doesn't mean it fits everywhere. It still has to make sense.

"My breath rejoices in the Lord" (Luke 1:47) does not make sense.

"Father, into thy hands I commit my breath!" (Luke 23:46) does not make sense.

"The LORD is near to the brokenhearted, and saves the crushed in breath." (Psa 34:18) does not make sense.

"My breath is broken," (Job 17:1) does not make sense.

My soul yearns for thee in the night, my breath within me earnestly seeks thee." ( Isa 26:9) does not make sense.

Do you need more examples?


<<They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.>>

Ah, the "1000 year reign of Christ."

Q: When will or did that begin?

A: Mat 28:18 "...Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

That statement says the reign of Christ began before Jesus' ascension. At that point in time, after His resurrection and before His ascension, all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Jesus. Having all authority is the essence of reining.

Are the visions in the Apocalypse of Jesus Christ to be taken literally? Mostly not. "A thousand years" could easily and legitimately be understood as meaning "a long time." So far, all authority in heaven and earth has been in Jesus' hands for about 2000 years.

 

[ATP]

<<all 66 books were written in Hebrew and Greek right.>>

Only 66? Mine has more than that. Just like the KJV of 1611.

Hebrew, Aramaic or Chaldean, (Hebrew had been lost during the Exile. That's why they needed the Greek translation, the Spetuagint) and Koine Greek. (Not classic Greek, the Greek of the market place)

<<http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm>>

Point??

Just because "breath" is ONE of the possible translations of the word, that doesn't mean it fits everywhere. It still has to make sense.

"My breath rejoices in the Lord" (Luke 1:47) does not make sense.
"Father, into thy hands I commit my breath!" (Luke 23:46) does not make sense.

"The LORD is near to the brokenhearted, and saves the crushed in breath." (Psa 34:18) does not make sense.
"My breath is broken," (Job 17:1) does not make sense.
My soul yearns for thee in the night, my breath within me earnestly seeks thee." ( Isa 26:9) does not make sense.

Do you need more examples?

You're missing the point bro.

There is no scripture in the bible that says when we die we are conscious in the third heaven. None.

What it does say is that we sleep in Jesus until the first resurrection.

<<They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.>>

Ah, the "1000 year reign of Christ."

Q: When will or did that begin?

A: Mat 28:18 "...Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

That statement says the reign of Christ began before Jesus' ascension. At that point in time, after His resurrection and before His ascension, all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Jesus. Having all authority is the essence of reining.

Are the visions in the Apocalypse of Jesus Christ to be taken literally? Mostly not. "A thousand years" could easily and legitimately be understood as meaning "a long time." So far, all authority in heaven and earth has been in Jesus' hands for about 2000 years.

Uhh no Jim. Rev 20 is about the future.

 

[JimParker]

You're missing the point bro.

There is no scripture in the bible that says when we die we are conscious in the third heaven. None.

What it does say is that we sleep in Jesus until the first resurrection.


Uhh no Jim. Rev 20 is about the future.

<<There is no scripture in the bible that says when we die we are conscious in the third heaven. None.>>

I didn't say anything about any "third heaven." The Bible does not define "third heaven."

Jesus used the illustration of Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham, all being dead in the body but, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and conversing with each other after their death. If it weren't an accurate description of reality, then it would be a meaningless teaching and Jesus would have been babbling.

Moses, after he had been dead for 1500 years, appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and conversing with Jesus. Either that's what took place or Matthew and Mark are making up stories.

In Hebrews, we are told of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and yet have been dead for centuries and millennia. In order to do surround us they have to move and in order to be witnesses, they must be, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and watching and listening.

Al those examples are in the scriptures.

Why do you say that are not?

And why don't you believe what they tell you?

<<Rev 20 is about the future.>>

We are in the future.

Everything after John finished writing Revelation was in the future.

Revelation had as much to do with the conflict of the Church with the Roman Empire as it did about the future. Even the number of the beast, 666, was the number of Nero's name. ("Neron" in Greek)

It is apocalyptic literature. It's not a videotape of exactly what will happen in the future. I suggest you get a copy of The Dawn of the Apocalyptic by Paul Hansen and read it a couple of times. (It takes me a few readings to get it all) And then be very skeptical of any doctrine, "firmly" grounded in God's word as revealed in the Apocalypse or Daniel's or Ezekiel's. apocalyptic writings. It is very likely to be wrong.

It is also very likely to be a clever distraction from Satan. It's none of our business when Jesus is coming and the signs of the end times have been coming and going for centuries. The important part for us, according to the Jesus fellow, (not someone important like John Darby or Ellen White [sarcasm]) is that we be found doing the good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should do them. (Eph 2:10)