12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[ATP]

I didn't say anything about any "third heaven." The Bible does not define "third heaven."

2 Cor 12:2 NIV I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

3rd - Deut 10:14 NIV To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
3rd - 1 Kings 8:27 NIV "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
3rd - Psalm 78:23 NIV Yet he gave a command to the skies above and opened the doors of the heavens;
3rd - Psalm 115:16 NIV The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to mankind.
3rd - Psalm 148:4 NIV Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.
3rd - Isa 14:13-14 NIV You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
3rd - Ez 1:1 NIV In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
3rd - Mark 1:10 NIV Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
3rd - Luke 23:43 NIV Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
3rd - Acts 7:56 NIV "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
3rd - 2 Cor 12:2 NIV I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
3rd - 2 Cor 12:4 NIV was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
3rd - Gal 4:26 NIV But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
3rd - Heb 4:14 NIV Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.
3rd - Heb 7:26 NIV Such a high priest truly meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
3rd - Heb 8:1 NIV Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
3rd - Heb 12:22 NIV But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
3rd - Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
3rd - Rev 3:12 NIV The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Jesus used the illustration of Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham, all being dead in the body but, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and conversing with each other after their death. If it weren't an accurate description of reality, then it would be a meaningless teaching and Jesus would have been babbling.

Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.

Moses, after he had been dead for 1500 years, appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and conversing with Jesus. Either that's what took place or Matthew and Mark are making up stories.

It was a vision Jim. Do you understand what a vision is. It is a vision about the second coming of Christ.

We are in the future.

Well, technically you're in the present. Tomorrow is the future brother, and Rev 20 takes place in the future.

In Hebrews, we are told of the cloud of witnesses who surround us and yet have been dead for centuries and millennia. In order to do surround us they have to move and in order to be witnesses, they must be, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and watching and listening.

So who are the “cloud of witnesses,” and how is it they “surround” us? To understand this, we need to look at the previous chapter, as evidenced by the word therefore beginning chapter 12. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the rest of the Old Testament believers looked forward with faith to the coming of the Messiah. The author of Hebrews illustrates this eloquently in chapter 11 and then ends the chapter by telling us that the forefathers had faith to guide and direct them, but God had something better planned. Then he begins chapter 12 with a reference to these faithful men and women who paved the way for us. What the Old Testament believers looked forward to in faith—the Messiah—we look back to, having seen the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning His first coming.

We are surrounded by the saints of the past in a unique way. It’s not that the faithful who have gone before us are spectators to the race we run. Rather, it is a figurative representation and means that we ought to act as if they were in sight and cheering us on to the same victory in the life of faith that they obtained. We are to be inspired by the godly examples these saints set during their lives. These are those whose past lives of faith encourage others to live that way, too. That the cloud is referred to as “great” indicates that millions of believers have gone before us, each bearing witness to the life of faith we now live.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/cloud-of-witnesses.html#ixzz3Wh6FMisR

 

[JimParker]

2 Cor 12:2 NIV I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

3rd - Deut 10:14 NIV To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
3rd - 1 Kings 8:27 NIV "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
3rd - Psalm 78:23 NIV Yet he gave a command to the skies above and opened the doors of the heavens;
3rd - Psalm 115:16 NIV The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to mankind.
3rd - Psalm 148:4 NIV Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.
3rd - Isa 14:13-14 NIV You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
3rd - Ez 1:1 NIV In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
3rd - Mark 1:10 NIV Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
3rd - Luke 23:43 NIV Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
3rd - Acts 7:56 NIV "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
3rd - 2 Cor 12:2 NIV I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
3rd - 2 Cor 12:4 NIV was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
3rd - Gal 4:26 NIV But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
3rd - Heb 4:14 NIV Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.
3rd - Heb 7:26 NIV Such a high priest truly meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
3rd - Heb 8:1 NIV Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
3rd - Heb 12:22 NIV But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
3rd - Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
3rd - Rev 3:12 NIV The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.


Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.


It was a vision Jim. Do you understand what a vision is. It is a vision about the second coming of Christ.


Well, technically you're in the present. Tomorrow is the future brother, and Rev 20 takes place in the future.


So who are the “cloud of witnesses,” and how is it they “surround” us? To understand this, we need to look at the previous chapter, as evidenced by the word therefore beginning chapter 12. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the rest of the Old Testament believers looked forward with faith to the coming of the Messiah. The author of Hebrews illustrates this eloquently in chapter 11 and then ends the chapter by telling us that the forefathers had faith to guide and direct them, but God had something better planned. Then he begins chapter 12 with a reference to these faithful men and women who paved the way for us. What the Old Testament believers looked forward to in faith—the Messiah—we look back to, having seen the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning His first coming.

We are surrounded by the saints of the past in a unique way. It’s not that the faithful who have gone before us are spectators to the race we run. Rather, it is a figurative representation and means that we ought to act as if they were in sight and cheering us on to the same victory in the life of faith that they obtained. We are to be inspired by the godly examples these saints set during their lives. These are those whose past lives of faith encourage others to live that way, too. That the cloud is referred to as “great” indicates that millions of believers have gone before us, each bearing witness to the life of faith we now live.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/cloud-of-witnesses.html#ixzz3Wh6FMisR

To my "I didn't say anything about any "third heaven." The Bible does not define "third heaven." " you responded with a bushel of verses, none of which DEFINES the term "third heaven."

To my comment: Jesus used the illustration of Lazarus, the rich man and Abraham, all being dead in the body but, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and conversing with each other after their death. If it weren't an accurate description of reality, then it would be a meaningless teaching and Jesus would have been babbling.

You wrote several paragraphs, none of which responds to what I said.

Jesus describes the state of the dead as conscious, experiencing torment or rest, and communicating. Those are not experiences that people who are "asleep" have.

Moses, after he had been dead for 1500 years, appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration, in some manner, alive, awake, conscious and conversing with Jesus. Either that's what took place or Matthew and Mark are making up stories.

<<It was a vision Jim. Do you understand what a vision is. It is a vision about the second coming of Christ.>>

There is absolutely NOTHING in either passage that suggests they saw a "vision."

Mar 9:4 And there appeared to them Eli'jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.
Luke 9:30-31 And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Eli'jah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Even if it was a "vision", it was a vision of reality.

JimParker, on 07 Apr 2015 - 5:54 PM, said:

We are in the future.

<< Well, technically you're in the present. Tomorrow is the future brother, and Rev 20 takes place in the future.>>

Cute. With reference to the time of John's writing of Revelation, we are in the future.

<< We are surrounded by the saints of the past in a unique way. It’s not that the faithful who have gone before us are spectators to the race we run. Rather, it is a figurative representation >>

There is nothing in the passage to indicate that it is a "figurative representation.

But I note that you are very ready to take highly symbolic, apocalyptic visions and use them as if they were photographically accurate evidence to support your beliefs but, when you encounter plain statements which work to refute your beliefs, you call them "visions" and "figurative".

You are doing isogesis, not exegesis. You are inserting your beliefs into the scriptures and making scripture conform to them rather the making your beliefs conform to scripture.

And you have totally ignored almost 2000 years of the teaching of the church.

2 Cor 12:2 NIV I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

3rd - Deut 10:14 NIV To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.
3rd - 1 Kings 8:27 NIV "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
3rd - Psalm 78:23 NIV Yet he gave a command to the skies above and opened the doors of the heavens;
3rd - Psalm 115:16 NIV The highest heavens belong to the LORD, but the earth he has given to mankind.
3rd - Psalm 148:4 NIV Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.
3rd - Isa 14:13-14 NIV You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
3rd - Ez 1:1 NIV In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
3rd - Mark 1:10 NIV Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
3rd - Luke 23:43 NIV Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
3rd - Acts 7:56 NIV "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
3rd - 2 Cor 12:2 NIV I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
3rd - 2 Cor 12:4 NIV was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
3rd - Gal 4:26 NIV But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
3rd - Heb 4:14 NIV Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.
3rd - Heb 7:26 NIV Such a high priest truly meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
3rd - Heb 8:1 NIV Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
3rd - Heb 12:22 NIV But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
3rd - Rev 2:7 NIV Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
3rd - Rev 3:12 NIV The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.


Hades is only used once in the Bible as hell fire, in Luke 16:19-31. The remainder of the Bible, Hades is the grave. I would submit that in that passage Jesus is alluding to something the Pharisees would have been familiar with. The Song of Moses was a description of how Israel would turn away from Him. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man I believe Jesus is speaking of the priesthood and their demise. Here is the passage I believe Jesus is alluding too. Hell in this passage of Deu 32 is Sheol. Because Sheol/Hades is the grave and Gehenna is the place of fire. I think the Pharisees would see the connection between Jesus' words and the Song of Moses...

Deut 32:18-22 YLT The Rock that begat thee thou forgettest, And neglectest God who formeth thee. 19And Jehovah seeth and despiseth — For the provocation of His sons and His daughters. 20And He saith: I hide My face from them, I see what [is] their latter end; For a froward generation [are] they, Sons in whom is no stedfastness. 21They have made Me zealous by ‘no-god,’ They made Me angry by their vanities; And I make them zealous by ‘no-people,’ By a foolish nation I make them angry. 22For a fire hath been kindled in Mine anger, And it burneth unto Sheol — the lowest, And consumeth earth and its increase, And setteth on fire foundations of mountains.

The Priesthood - I'm thinking that he used Hades instead of Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, so we would make the distinction between the priesthood in this life vs. the afterlife. If Luke used Gehenna or the Lake of Fire, then we would be certain he was referring to the afterlife, but he didn't. So we know he was simply telling a story about the demise of the priesthood and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Luke could of wrote it like this, but he didn't......

Example 1: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Gehenna, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Example 2: Verse 22-23 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In the Lake of Fire, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. Only one class in Israel was habitually clothed in purple and linen and fared sumptuously every day4 - the High Priestly class of Sadducees.


It was a vision Jim. Do you understand what a vision is. It is a vision about the second coming of Christ.


Well, technically you're in the present. Tomorrow is the future brother, and Rev 20 takes place in the future.


So who are the “cloud of witnesses,” and how is it they “surround” us? To understand this, we need to look at the previous chapter, as evidenced by the word therefore beginning chapter 12. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the rest of the Old Testament believers looked forward with faith to the coming of the Messiah. The author of Hebrews illustrates this eloquently in chapter 11 and then ends the chapter by telling us that the forefathers had faith to guide and direct them, but God had something better planned. Then he begins chapter 12 with a reference to these faithful men and women who paved the way for us. What the Old Testament believers looked forward to in faith—the Messiah—we look back to, having seen the fulfillment of all the prophecies concerning His first coming.

We are surrounded by the saints of the past in a unique way. It’s not that the faithful who have gone before us are spectators to the race we run. Rather, it is a figurative representation and means that we ought to act as if they were in sight and cheering us on to the same victory in the life of faith that they obtained. We are to be inspired by the godly examples these saints set during their lives. These are those whose past lives of faith encourage others to live that way, too. That the cloud is referred to as “great” indicates that millions of believers have gone before us, each bearing witness to the life of faith we now live.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/cloud-of-witnesses.html#ixzz3Wh6FMisR

You already posted that reply. :mellow:

 

[ATP]

To my "I didn't say anything about any "third heaven." The Bible does not define "third heaven." " you responded with a bushel of verses, none of which DEFINES the term "third heaven."

Actually, they do all refer to the third heaven. In fact, 2 Cor 12:2 specifically says third heaven.

2 Cor 12:2 NIV I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

Matt 17:1-13 NIV Even if it was a "vision", it was a vision of reality.

Correct, the reality of the second coming of Christ.

Transfigure Definition
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transfigure?s=t
verb (used with object), transfigured, transfiguring.
1. to change in outward form or appearance; transform.
2. to change so as to glorify or exalt.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

With reference to the time of John's writing of Revelation, we are in the future.

Rev 20 is about the future. Christianity 101.

There is nothing in the passage to indicate that it is a "figurative representation.

Heb 12:1 is figurative brother.

 

[Butch5]

I think certainly the fact that God exists yes is evident, but apart from that I think there is much about God that is not fully understood. The very fact that there are pages of forums dedicated to debating/ discussing interpretation I think is evidence of that. There are also plenty of people that are dedicated to a god, who have simply been misled, eternal torment to for that seems a bit harsh. If we recieve our moral compass from the spirit (obviously keeping in mind that we should look to God's word) that should at the very least give us pause.

As far as what I think, I want to look at more perspectives before I say anything for sure. Honestly up until yesterday my thoughts were more towards hell as being an eternal separation from God, primarily due to the fact that they are not forgiven and cannot stand in the face of God without being destroyed. Because I am saved I haven't put much thought into it, but after some conversations with non-believers recently on what a "loving God" would or wouldn't do, I think this question does need to be considered. At this point however I am leaning more toward annihilation.

I also do realize that I am leaning a lot on my thoughts and feelings which I am trying to get away from and look more toward scripture and logic, but as both sides seem to be using a lot of scripture I'm not entirely sure how to proceed, but thank you for engaging me in the conversation.

Hi Alsett,

That's a good point, which is one of the reasons I debate this subject. There are those who reject Christianity because of this doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment. I submit that the Bible teaches no such thing. There are few passages that have been poorly translated along with Greek Philosophical ideas that have crept into the faith that allow this doctrine to continue.

 

[StanJ]

Then why not deal with the scriptures that do teach it Butch? Asserting ALL the current Greek scholars have got it wrong, with no corroboration, is just that. Why would Jesus warn about a hell that didn't exist, or contrast Eternal Life, with Eternal Punishment if the latter wasn't true?
I know I've asked this before, but explain where you get annihilation from So I can refute it again.

 

[ATP]

Hi Alsett,

That's a good point, which is one of the reasons I debate this subject. There are those who reject Christianity because of this doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment. I submit that the Bible teaches no such thing. There are few passages that have been poorly translated along with Greek Philosophical ideas that have crept into the faith that allow this doctrine to continue.

John could of chose not to add "day and night" into Rev 20:10, but he did. Day and night is figurative language to describe ongoing event. Please go to post #285.

 

[Butch5]

Jim

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]
That is NOT speaking of the resurrection. The resurrection has to do with the body only. And, no, the body is NOT the soul.

[SIZE=10pt]Jim, it’s right there in the text.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]25[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Joh 11:25-26 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Jesus says He is the resurrection and the life. Noticed of the believer He says, “though he were dead. So, the believer is dead, yet, Jesus said, he shall live. Shall live is future tense. Though he was dead, he shall live.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

(sigh) Please read the rest of the passage

[SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Mar 9:6http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Mar 9.6[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]For he (Peter) did not know what to say, for they were exceedingly afraid[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]In other words, Peter was babbling. Real Christians don't make doctrine out of what Peter said when he didn't know what he was talking about. That's what scoundrels and frauds do. I don't think that includes you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]“In other words” doesn’t that indicate that the passage doesn’t actually say that? Just because He was afraid doesn’t mean he didn’t know what he was talking about. However, as I pointed out Jesus Himself said it was a vision. Jesus also said,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]27[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. (Luk 9:27 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Luke goes on to say,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]28[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. {sayings: or, things}[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 31 Who appeared in glor[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]y, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. (Luk 9:28-36 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Now consider what Peter said,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]16[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: (2Pe 1:16-19 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Here Peter is describing what happened on the Mount and said that it was the coming of the Lord. That hadn’t happened yet. However, when the Lord returns the dead will be resurrected, thus what they were seeing was a vision.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

Ok, so you haven't studied Greek.

[SIZE=10pt]I didn’t say I hadn’t studied it. I said it wasn’t necessary to study Greek to know that aionios doesn’t mean eternal[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]<<There are ordinances of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, Owlam in the Hebrew and aion in Greek. However, Paul and Jesus both said that the law came to an end. >>[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

Please don't make stuff up.

[SIZE=10pt]What Jesus said was: [/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt](Mat 5:18http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Mat 5.18) Since we are all still inhabiting the earth which is floating in the heavens, nothing has passed from the law. It's still a sin to oppress the widow and stranger. It's still a sin to oppress the poor. It's still a sin to be a drunkard. (Unless you attend a church that promotes those behaviors!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Jim, He didn’t say the earth would pass when all was fulfilled, He said it wouldn’t pass until all was fulfilled. Jesus said,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]16[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luk 16:16 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Paul said,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]13[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:13-15 KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]11[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Heb 7:11-12 KJV)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The priesthood has been changed, thus the ordinances of the Aaronic priesthood cannot be forever.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

We have a new covenant. That does not mean that the Old Covenant did not have laws, regulations, stipulations that are not still applicable today. It just means that we are no longer required to keep all of the law in order to prosper and live long in the land which God will give us.

[SIZE=10pt]The only things that have changed are the sacrificial or ceremonial regulations. The Arronic priesthood is essentially gone (though they are still functioning in Samaria) and the necessity for the sacrifice of animals is gone. But the laws which tell us that we are to act in mercy and love toward all of mankind still stand in Jesus command to love God and love our neighbors.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]It’s those ordinances that are said to be forever. Clearly they are not[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

At any rate, you STILL cannot translate the same word, used in the same sentence, two different ways.

[SIZE=10pt]Again, Jim, I’m not trying to translate the same word in the sentence two different ways. I’m translating it the same was both times, however, I using a definition that fits with Scripture rather than one that doesn’t. I’m translating it “age-during.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

The church has never accepted the heresy that the wicked dead are annihilated. Your defense of that old heresy is just as wrong today as it was many centuries ago.

[SIZE=10pt]I don’t use the word Annihilation because many use it to set up a straw man argument. Instead I uise the terms Scripture does, perish or destroy. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Regarding the heresy statement, you’re more than welcome to prove the doctrine is heresy. Just remember, 500 years ago Protestant doctrine was heresy also. Just because a lot Christians accept a doctrine doesn’t make it right. There are a lot of Christians who accept doctrines that simply contradict the
Scriptures. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

I never suggested that man is a spirit.

[SIZE=10pt]God made man's body from the dust of the earth. But the scriptures repeatedly state that man HAS a spirit. (Unless you are going to recite the absurd SDA teaching that the spirit is a person's breath.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Wow, SDA doctrine? Are you aware that the word for breath and spirit is the same word, correct? It seems more like a Scriptural teaching.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

No it does not. But the Bible, in its entirety teaches that, in some manner, the dead are alive and conscious even as their bodies decay.

[SIZE=10pt]Ok, If that is what the entirety of the Bible teaches it should be no trouble to make that case. Could you do that?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

It is only the body that will require resurrection, not the spirit or soul. (And, yes, i realize that those terms are not specifically defined.)

[SIZE=10pt]If you don't want to know that, it's OK by me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Enjoy. (Just don't expect to be taken seriously.)[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]The Scriptures say that Christ was resurrected correct? What was resurrected?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Both the Masoretic text and the Septuagint tell us that it was His soul that died for sins.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]LXX[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]12[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Therefore he shall inherit many, and he shall divide the spoils of the mighty; because his soul was delivered to death: and <1> he was numbered among the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and was delivered because of their iniquities. (Isa 53:12 LXE)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Masoretic text,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]10[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. (Isa 53:10 NKJ)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]We know Christ’s body was on the cross, yet Scripture says that it was His soul that was given for sins. Abstractly soul means life. This fits nicely with the Scriptures, Christ laid down His life for our sins. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]To say the soul is something like a ghost that lives on after death doesn’t fit the Scriptures.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Your argument is based on the premise that there is some part of man that can life one after death. I believe this is a false premise. Can you make a case to show from Scripture that your premise is valid?[/SIZE]

Then why not deal with the scriptures that do teach it Butch? Asserting ALL the current Greek scholars have got it wrong, with no corroboration, is just that. Why would Jesus warn about a hell that didn't exist, or contrast Eternal Life, with Eternal Punishment if the latter wasn't true?
I know I've asked this before, but explain where you get annihilation from So I can refute it again.

Actually, I don't use the word annihilationism because many use it to set up a straw man argument. I use the words of Scripture, perish and destroy.

Stan, I've already given several examples showing why aionios cannot mean eternal eternal. One example is from Jude.

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 NKJ)

Jude says that Sodom and Gommorha are an example of aionios fire. It's quite easy to see that those two cities are not burning today. So, aionios fire is not eternal.

Jesus didn't contrast eternal life with eternal punishment, He contrasted "aionios" life with "aionios" punishment.

 

[ATP]

Jesus didn't contrast eternal life with eternal punishment, He contrasted "aionios" life with "aionios" punishment.

Yet, he used day and night in Rev 20:10.

 

[StanJ]

Actually, I don't use the word annihilationism because many use it to set up a straw man argument. I use the words of Scripture, perish and destroy.

Stan, I've already given several examples showing why aionios cannot mean eternal eternal. One example is from Jude.

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 NKJ)

Jude says that Sodom and Gommorha are an example of aionios fire. It's quite easy to see that those two cities are not burning today. So, aionios fire is not eternal.

Jesus didn't contrast eternal life with eternal punishment, He contrasted "aionios" life with "aionios" punishment.

Well lets try to NOT do that on either side, but as ECT is also used as such we can agree to not do so. What scriptures are you using to convey perish and destroy?

As far as S & G is concerned, Jude is referring to what did happen as a spiritual analogy of what will happen to wicked people. Gen 19 records it was destroyed that day and that Abraham saw the leftover smoke. In the spiritual realm however Jude is showing us that by writing "in a SIMILAR way". Not the exact way.
The destruction Jude refers to is diametrically opposed to Eternal Life. The destruction is NOT having Eternal Life. There are very few if any actual Greek scholars/translators who render it long-lasting. The word used in Jude 1:7 is the EXACT same one as used in Heb 13:20, so unless you don't believe the NC is eternal, then you don't have much choice in accepting the same connotation for both verses. If you don't then we have a whole different discussion to initiate.

As Matthew 25:46 uses the same Greek word for both punishment and life, we have to accept that it means the same for either function and as accepting Jesus as our savior is clearly depicted as resulting in Eternal Life, I'm pretty confident in which way the rendering should go.

 

[Butch5]

Well lets try to NOT do that on either side, but as ECT is also used as such we can agree to not do so. What scriptures are you using to convey perish and destroy?

As far as S & G is concerned, Jude is referring to what did happen as a spiritual analogy of what will happen to wicked people. Gen 19 records it was destroyed that day and that Abraham saw the leftover smoke. In the spiritual realm however Jude is showing us that by writing "in a SIMILAR way". Not the exact way.
The destruction Jude refers to is diametrically opposed to Eternal Life. The destruction is NOT having Eternal Life. There are very few if any actual Greek scholars/translators who render it long-lasting. The word used in Jude 1:7 is the EXACT same one as used in Heb 13:20, so unless you don't believe the NC is eternal, then you don't have much choice in accepting the same connotation for both verses. If you don't then we have a whole different discussion to initiate.

As Matthew 25:46 uses the same Greek word for both punishment and life, we have to accept that it means the same for either function and as accepting Jesus as our savior is clearly depicted as resulting in Eternal Life, I'm pretty confident in which way the rendering should go.

For which Scriptures would convey perish or destroyed, I would submit the the Scriptures. As I said, with e exception of few poorly translated passages the teaching of Scripture is that the wicked perish.

Regarding Sodom and Gommorha, Jude said it "IS" and example, he didn't say "in a similar way." Likewise he said nothing of a spiritual analogy. Unless you can show something from Scripture showing this I'll have to assume it's just speculation.

Regarding the Mathew 25, I submit the word aionios does not mean eternal. Aionios means an age. The length of any age must be determined by factors outside of the definition of age or aion. If I ask 10 people, "what is you age" surely they wouldn't all say, eternity, I have existed for all eternity. As soon as a exact length of time is given as definition for age it can no longer mean a different length of time. So, if aion(ios) is defined as eternal then it can no longer mean a fixed period of time. However, it is used all through the Scriptures of a fixed period of time. That is why we have the poor translation that say the ordinances of the Mosaic Law and Aaronic Priesthood are for ever when Jesus and Paul both said they ended.

The Scriptures were originally written in a Hebraic language and aion was used to translate Olam into Greek in the LXX. So, if we really want to get at what is being portrayed we need to understand what OLam means as that is what was originally written. All of these NT promises of eternal life originate in the OT. So, aion is translating the concept of Olam. A literal definition is what is at or beyond the horizon. When related to time it suggests a time that is far off.

So, in Mathew 25 aion is used of both life and punishment, however, that doesn't mean that in both cases aion (age) is the same length of time.

There is also an argument made by some that rather than denoting the length of duration of actually punishment aion is referring to finality of the punishment. For instance, if the punishment is destruction, then that destruction is eternal. Once on is destroyed they will "NEVER" exist again as opposed to the currnet death where all will be raised from the dead.

I don't argue this argument because I don't think aion means eternal, however, for those who do, this is a perfectly logical and Scriptural argument.

Yet, he used day and night in Rev 20:10.

But day and night doesn't mean eternal. One could suffer day and night for 5 years and another could live in bliss day and night for 10 years. I don't see where this affects the definition of aion

 

[ATP]

But day and night doesn't mean eternal. One could suffer day and night for 5 years and another could live in bliss day and night for 10 years. I don't see where this affects the definition of aion

I would submit that day and night in Rev 20:10 does mean eternal.
It's figurative language to describe an ongoing process.
Rev 4:9-10 uses "ages of the ages" and also describes the after life, similar to Rev 20:10.

Rev 4:8 NIV Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

Rev 4:9-10 NIV Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever.

Rev 7:15-16 NIV Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.

 

[Butch5]

I would submit that day and night in Rev 20:10 does mean eternal.
It's figurative language to describe an ongoing process.
Rev 4:9-10 uses "ages of the ages" and also describes the after life, similar to Rev 20:10.

Rev 4:8 NIV Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

Rev 4:9-10 NIV Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever.

Rev 7:15-16 NIV Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.

None of these passages say the day and night is eternal. Rev. 4:8 says they never stop says, never stop until when? The passage doesn't say they "will" never stop it says they never stop. They may or may not at some point but this passage isn't determining that.

Rev.4:9-10 is speaking of God living forever. Rev 7"15-16 speaks of those who will live forever.

The phrase day and night just means continuous, it doesn't mean it will never stop.

 

[ATP]

None of these passages say the day and night is eternal. Rev. 4:8 says they never stop says, never stop until when? The passage doesn't say they "will" never stop it says they never stop. They may or may not at some point but this passage isn't determining that.

Rev 4:8 is about the throne in heaven. The throne in heaven will be eternal.

The phrase day and night just means continuous, it doesn't mean it will never stop.

But it does in those passages.

 

[Butch5]

Rev 4:8 is about the throne in heaven. The throne in heaven will be eternal.


But it does in those passages.

The meaning of the phrase is not determined by whether the throne is eternal or not. The passage just says what they do currently, it doesn't say it will continue for eternity.

The other two speak of God or people living forever.

 

[ATP]

The meaning of the phrase is not determined by whether the throne is eternal or not.

If day and night is not eternal language, then what is it used for. Heaven Rev 4:8 and the New Jerusalem Rev 7:15-16 is eternal brother.

Luke 20:35-36 NIV But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

If day and night is not eternal language, then what is it used for. Heaven Rev 4:8 and the New Jerusalem Rev 7:15-16 is eternal brother.

Luke 20:35-36 NIV But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

These things don't mean that day and night is eternal. For instance, all humans breathe day and night. Every human's heart beats day and night. These things while continuous will end.

 

[ATP]

These things don't mean that day and night is eternal. For instance, all humans breathe day and night. Every human's heart beats day and night. These things while continuous will end.

So why did he use it to describe eternal places.

Day and night means all the time..https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=969&noj=1&site=webhp&q=what+does+day+and+night+mean&oq=what+does+day+and+night+mean&gs_l=serp.3..0j0i22i30l9.2966.8569.0.9066.32.25.1.2.2.0.258.3290.0j14j5.19.0.msedr...0...1c.1.64.serp..10.22.3298.c2MUypcZ46w

 

[Butch5]

So why did he use it to describe eternal places.

Day and night means all the time..https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=969&noj=1&site=webhp&q=what+does+day+and+night+mean&oq=what+does+day+and+night+mean&gs_l=serp.3..0j0i22i30l9.2966.8569.0.9066.32.25.1.2.2.0.258.3290.0j14j5.19.0.msedr...0...1c.1.64.serp..10.22.3298.c2MUypcZ46w

Things can be continuous either in eternity or not eternity. Consider this analogy, there is a wicked man and Jesus. Both Jesus and the wicked man breath day and night. Jesus has already been resurrected so His breathing will continue for eternity. The wicked man, however, has not been resurrected and will die, so, his breathing day and night will end and not be eternal. While day night denotes a continuous breathing, whether that breathing is eternal or not is determined by other factors, in this case that Jesus has already been resurrect and the wicked man hasn't.

 

[ATP]

Things can be continuous either in eternity or not eternity. Consider this analogy, there is a wicked man and Jesus. Both Jesus and the wicked man breath day and night. Jesus has already been resurrected so His breathing will continue for eternity. The wicked man, however, has not been resurrected and will die, so, his breathing day and night will end and not be eternal. While day night denotes a continuous breathing, whether that breathing is eternal or not is determined by other factors, in this case that Jesus has already been resurrect and the wicked man hasn't.

But Rev 4:8 and Rev 7:15-16 are not talking about wicked men. It's referring to angelic beings and saints.

 

[StanJ]

For which Scriptures would convey perish or destroyed, I would submit the Scriptures. As I said, with e exception of few poorly translated passages the teaching of Scripture is that the wicked perish.

Come on Butch, that is avoidance and to be productive you have to support your view with ACTUAL scripture, not just allude to the Bible generally.

In 2 Peter 3:9, the Greek ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi) is in regards to physical animation, NOT spirit. Spirits on their own can't repent, only animated or living human beings can.

Regarding Sodom and Gommorha, Jude said it "IS" and example, he didn't say "in a similar way." Likewise he said nothing of a spiritual analogy. Unless you can show something from Scripture showing this I'll have to assume it's just speculation.

I guess it depends what English version you use and IF you also studied the Greek. The point is, that S & D didn't undergo eternal fire as Jude says unbelievers will.

as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. NKJV