12 reasons why hell is not eternal conscious torment

[Butch5]

Everything's a fallacy, yeah I heard you.


I would submit that verse 23, 24 is about the millennium and not the New Earth. Also, why would John use "day and night" figuratively inside the city, but have it be literal when describing hell (outside) the city. Seems strange to me. What would the sun be used for if not for heat Rev 7:16? Isn't Acts 3:21 more about repentance and the fall of man than outer space?

What passage are you referring to when you say John uses the phrase figuratively? The passage in Acts 3 is part of a sermon, however, Peter is explaining when Christ would return and indicates that He won't return until the restoration of all things. It seems to me that all things will be restored before He returns. If that is the case then it would put the millennium after the restoration of all things which would mean that Isaiah 66:23 and 24 takes place after the restoration which would mean there is a moon. That's how I see it.

I'm having a little difficulty see your point about "day and night." You keep mentioning it so it must be important but I'm just not see it.

It is the POINT of this analogy Butch. Read v31. It has NOTHING to do with the priesthood. There are three distinct and separate teachings in Luke 16, and that is NOT one of them.

I think that's part of the problem Stan. Are you sure they are teachings and not condemnations? If they are teachings, why is Jesus teaching the Pharisees instead of His disciples.

I submit that there are not three different teachings but rather one continuous event from chapter 14 in which Jesus derides the Pharisees.

 

[ATP]

What passage are you referring to when you say John uses the phrase figuratively? The passage in Acts 3 is part of a sermon, however, Peter is explaining when Christ would return and indicates that He won't return until the restoration of all things. It seems to me that all things will be restored before He returns. If that is the case then it would put the millennium after the restoration of all things which would mean that Isaiah 66:23 and 24 takes place after the restoration which would mean there is a moon. That's how I see it.

I'm having a little difficulty see your point about "day and night." You keep mentioning it so it must be important but I'm just not see it.

Day and night figuratively, Rev 4:8 and Rev 7:15.
Why would John use day and night figuratively and then literally in Rev 20:10.
Also, what would the sun be used for if not for heat Rev 7:16.
I only see the restoration coming after the millennium.
Even after the millennium, Satan and evil will still be here.
I see the restoration coming after the Great White Throne, Rev 20-22 go in order.

 

[OzSpen]

Everything's a fallacy, yeah I heard you.

That's an absolutely false view. That is another dodge to avoid dealing with your use of a logical fallacy, which is fallacious reasoning.

 

[ATP]

That's an absolutely false view. That is another dodge to avoid dealing with your use of a logical fallacy, which is fallacious reasoning.

Maybe we should stop talking then, since you didn't respond to 1 Peter 3:18-22 and the other scriptures in post 231.

 

[StanJ]

That's an absolutely false view. That is another dodge to avoid dealing with your use of a logical fallacy, which is fallacious reasoning.

This is typical MO for some people Oz. Deflection, equivocation and obfuscation are standard fair for them.

 

[ATP]

This is typical MO for some people Oz. Deflection, equivocation and obfuscation are standard fair for them.

I would say it's a deflection for the one calling everything a fallacy. lol.

 

[brakelite]

@ATP, regarding

(YLT) 1 Peter 3:18 ¶ because also Christ once for sin did suffer — righteous for unrighteous — that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah — an ark being preparing — in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

I would like to add that it wasn't at the time between His death and the resurrection that those rebels were preached to. The Bible says that they were preached to 'in the spirit' (see italicized portion) and also, the time of that preaching was actually in the days of Noah (see v20). That preaching took place through Noah himself, being Spirit filled he was a 'preacher of righteousness'. Nor would he have been preaching to fallen angels, seeing they were at that time already bound in chains until the judgement that means they were locked into their dark ways and sinful belief systems of their rebellion...too late for them to repent. Noah preached to the people of his day.

 

[ATP]

That preaching took place through Noah himself, being Spirit filled he was a 'preacher of righteousness'.

I would disagree.
What it's saying is that Christ in the spiritual realm preached to fallen angels in Tartarus after resurrection.
The angels simply existed in the days of Noah 1 Peter 3:20 NIV.
Noah as a human being was unable to go down to the depths of Tartarus.
Christ is the one who went down to Tartarus.

1 Peter 3:18-19 NIV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

 

[OzSpen]

Maybe we should stop talking then, since you didn't respond to 1 Peter 3:18-22 and the other scriptures in post 231.

Why can't you admit to the logical fallacy that you used?

 

[ATP]

Why can't you admit to the logical fallacy that you used?

Which fallacy are you speaking of Oz. What is your belief in who Jesus Christ is. - ATP

 

[Butch5]

Day and night figuratively, Rev 4:8 and Rev 7:15.
Why would John use day and night figuratively and then literally in Rev 20:10.
Also, what would the sun be used for if not for heat Rev 7:16.
I only see the restoration coming after the millennium.
Even after the millennium, Satan and evil will still be here.
I see the restoration coming after the Great White Throne, Rev 20-22 go in order.

Why do you think 4:8 and 7:15 are figurative while 29:10 is literal? It seems to me that 'day and night' indicate a continuous event. It's like we would say, he jogs 24/7. If something is done night and day it doesn't stop.

Rev. 7:16 says the sun shall not light on them anymore nor any heat. It seems to me that the passage is just saying the sun won't shine on them anymore.

The way I see it the restoration has to come first.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:19-21 KJV)

This passage says to me that Christ will be in Heaven until the time of restoration.

 

[ATP]

The way I see it the restoration has to come first.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:19-21 KJV)

This passage says to me that Christ will be in Heaven until the time of restoration.

I'm just trying to picture this in my head. When we walk out of the city, there will suddenly be a day and night on the rest of the New Earth?

Hmm...

Psalm 89:35-37
Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
and I will not lie to David—
36that his line will continue forever
and his throne endure before me like the sun;
37it will be established forever like the moon,
the faithful witness in the sky.”

Psalm 148:1-6
1Praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights above.
2Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3Praise him, sun and moon;
praise him, all you shining stars.
4Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.
5Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for at his command they were created,
6and he established them for ever and ever—
he issued a decree that will never pass away.

Eccl 3:14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

 

[Butch5]

I'm just trying to picture this in my head. When we walk out of the city, there will suddenly be a day and night on the rest of the New Earth?

Hmm...

Psalm 89:35-37
Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
and I will not lie to David—
36that his line will continue forever
and his throne endure before me like the sun;
37it will be established forever like the moon,
the faithful witness in the sky.”

Psalm 148:1-6
1Praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights above.
2Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3Praise him, sun and moon;
praise him, all you shining stars.
4Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.
5Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for at his command they were created,
6and he established them for ever and ever—
he issued a decree that will never pass away.

Eccl 3:14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

I think there will be day and night everywhere, it's just that the glory of God will be so bright it will out shine the sun and it will not stop so the city will never be dark.

 

[ATP]

I think there will be day and night everywhere, it's just that the glory of God will be so bright it will out shine the sun and it will not stop so the city will never be dark.

Ok, now that we've established a sun, moon and stars on the New Earth, where were we in our discussion. What were we trying to prove here. Sorry if we got off topic.

 

[Butch5]

Ok, now that we've established a sun, moon and stars on the New Earth, where were we in our discussion. What were we trying to prove here. Sorry if we got off topic.

I'm not even sure anymore. I'm in several discussions and sometimes it's hard to keep them all straight.

 

[logabe]

I'm just trying to picture this in my head. When we walk out of the city, there will suddenly be a day and night on the rest of the New Earth?

Hmm...

Psalm 89:35-37
Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
and I will not lie to David—
36that his line will continue forever
and his throne endure before me like the sun;
37it will be established forever like the moon,
the faithful witness in the sky.”

Psalm 148:1-6
1Praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights above.
2Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3Praise him, sun and moon;
praise him, all you shining stars.
4Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.
5Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for at his command they were created,
6and he established them for ever and ever—
he issued a decree that will never pass away.

Eccl 3:14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

Day and night is a metaphor that helps us understand in the spirit. In this age our spiritual man (day) has
to battle our carnal man (night). Our spirit man can see or understand the word of God, because he is of
the day, but our flesh man can't see or understand the word of God, because he walks in the night or
darkness and he can't see or understand the word of God.

Jesus is the Light of the World in this Pentecostal Age, but when we put on the Sun of Righteous, we will
not need Him for light because we will be a part of that Light and we will know all things when we put on
the Sun of Righteousness, which is, our immortal body. In other words, we need Jesus to preserve us in
this Age because of our mortality that causes us to sin, but we want have to worry about that when we
receive our reward of immortality when the Sun of Righteousness comes with healing in His wings. Malachi
4:2 says,

2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with
healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from
the stall.

God will heal our mortality and cause us to walk in righteousness before Him. Then He will use us to teach
the people of the earth the ways of the Lord and they will be refined in the fire of the word that they may
offer up an offering in righteousness (Malachi 3:3).

In closing Isa. 58:10-11 gives us a really good understanding of day and night.

10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul;
then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:
11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought,
and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a
spring of water, whose waters fail not.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

I'm not even sure anymore. I'm in several discussions and sometimes it's hard to keep them all straight.

I'm just not convinced that the lake of fire is somewhere on earth. I believe it's in another dimension, similar to the third heaven.

Day and night is a metaphor that helps us understand in the spirit.

What are your thoughts on post 179.

 

[logabe]

Good afternoon to you. When you meet God at the Great White Throne and you are not born again, your destination is the lake of fire. You must be born again and accept Christ before you die on this earth.

John 3:7 NIV You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

Rev 20:15 NIV Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

- ATP

When you meet God @ the G.W.T. and you haven't been begotten again, you will be thrown into
the Lake of Fire. I agree, but let me explain.

The G.W.T. judgment comes after the Age of Tabernacles, which last a thousand years (Rev. 20: 4-
6. The only people that will be raised in the 1st Resurrection is the Overcomers. Rev. 2:11 says,

11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the
churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second
death.’

That gives us a little understanding of the Lake of Fire, which is, the 2nd Death. The next questions is,
what happens to the Christians that don't Overcome? Well, they will be saved from the Lake of Fire, but
they will lose their reward, which is, the Crown of Life (Rev. 2:10) & (1st Cor. 3:15).

The next question is, what is the Crown of Life? We need to go back to Rev. 20:4, and it will tell us
exactly what the definition of the Crown of Life is.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given
to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received
the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and
reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So not only were they immortal (alive to never die), but they also were given authority to reign
as Kings under the Headship of Jesus Christ for the whole thousand years in the Tabernacle Age.
That's how the phrase comes about, "the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords". During the
Tabernacles Age we will receive power and take the Kingdom and possess it from Age to Age to
Age. Dan. 7:18 says,

18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and
possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

The next question is, who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire or the second death as John calls it?
The ones that had opportunity to accept the Blood of Jesus as their atonement in their lifetime. If
a person has lived in a country such as the United States where they can freely worship God without
major persecution, but still refuse to act upon the call of God, I think he/she might be a candidate for
the Lake of Fire, but God will be their judge.

On the other hand, a person that has lived in a country that doesn't allow Jesus Christ as their God
and will kill Christians such as in the middle east, they will be judged differently, because they didn't
have the opportunity to hear the Word of God as we do, and God will judge them according to their
situation. We seem to forget that God is a just God, but He is also a forgiving God and that's where
we as Christians fall short.

In order to be an Overcomer, we have to be some super spiritual Christians that never sins and always
does everything right. WRONG!!! An Overcomer is simply a FORGIVER!!! While we were yet in sin,
God died for us. In other words, He forgave us while we were yet His enemies, and we have to do the
same to our enemies in order to be an Overcomer. Forgive them, for they know not what they do!!!

The last question is, what is the second death? To understand what the Lake of Fire is, we first must
understand what the 1st death is. The first death is what we received when Adam ate the fruit that God
had commanded him not to eat, lest he die. Paul tells us all have sinned and come short of the glory of
God. He also tells us that the wages of sin is DEATH or mortality and we received that wage @ birth. In
other words, we had nothing to do with our mortality, but we are paying for a sin we didn't commit. Rom.
5:12 says,

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and
death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

So Paul is telling us we sin because of Adam's sin, and David says we come out of our mothers womb
speaking lies (Ps. 58:3), which means we couldn't help ourselves, because it was in our nature to sin in
the very beginning of our lives. So what is the solution to this very complicated scenario? Rom. 5:18-19
says,

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation
to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted
justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made
sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be
made righteous.

Ah... there's the problem... Paul couldn't possibly be talking about saving everyone that was made sinners,
could he? We can all believe that the many is everyone when it comes to being sinners. We don't have a
problem with believing that, because we know all has sinned and come short of the glory of God. We quote
that all of the time, but what I don't hear is the second part of that scripture that says that same "many"
will be made righteous! Are we missing something or maybe Paul really didn't mean what he was saying.

I'll let you decide that for yourself, but I believe that God was the One that established the Lake of Fire to
make the rest of the MANY righteous. Let me explain. The second death is a period of time that God uses
to complete His Work of restoration. After the Tabernacles Age is completed, then comes the second harvest
or resurrection, where the people will be judged @ the G.W.T. Some will be Overcomers that came out of the
Tabernacle Age as forgivers, and others will come out that lived in our present time that didn't learn to forgive,
so they will have a short correction period, but they will not be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The last group of
the harvest will be the unbelievers, which will be thrown into the Lake of Fire to pay for their sins that they
committed in their lifetime. They will be judged according to their works, because they didn't allow Jesus to
atone their sins in the first death, so they must go into the 2nd death with mortality.

What will happen once they are there? I believe some will be there for a very long time, because they will be
judged by the Law. Some will have to spend several lifetimes in the Lake of Fire if they have murdered several
people. In other words, if they have killed 3 people in their life unjustly, they will have to spend 3 lifetimes to
pay for that crime. Where did you get that from? An eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and death for death. They
will be judged by the Law, because they didn't allow Jesus, the perfect sacrifice to atone for their sins.

The Law has to be satisfied and the only one that could satisfy the Law was Jesus, because He never sinned and
the wages of sin is death, but a sinless man died for the world and when the world believes on the perfect sacrifice,
that man/women is forgiven, which means the Law is satisfied with the result.

In the very end, God will forgive All and will have a Jubilee that will set all men and women free. The Lake of Fire
will be unnecessary, because all will become righteous in that process that God created so He could save all mankind.
When God has made all of His enemies friends, then will come to the saying, DEATH HAS BEEN SWALLOWED UP.

No more death, no more 2nd death, death has been destroyed by LIFE. I'm going to leave you with this in 1st Cor. 15:
26,

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

How is that going to happen? By God giving His creation life.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[ATP]

The next question is, who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire or the second death as John calls it?
The ones that had opportunity to accept the Blood of Jesus as their atonement in their lifetime. If
a person has lived in a country such as the United States where they can freely worship God without
major persecution, but still refuse to act upon the call of God, I think he/she might be a candidate for
the Lake of Fire, but God will be their judge.

On the other hand, a person that has lived in a country that doesn't allow Jesus Christ as their God
and will kill Christians such as in the middle east, they will be judged differently, because they didn't
have the opportunity to hear the Word of God as we do, and God will judge them according to their
situation. We seem to forget that God is a just God, but He is also a forgiving God and that's where
we as Christians fall short.

You're making this more complex than it is. It has nothing to do with where they live or what sin they committed. Born again is born again, it is that simple.

they will be judged differently, because they didn't have the opportunity to hear the Word of God as we do, and God will judge them according to their situation.

Eccl 3:11 NIV He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Rom 1:20 NIV For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[OzSpen]

The next question is, who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire or the second death as John calls it?
The ones that had opportunity to accept the Blood of Jesus as their atonement in their lifetime. If
a person has lived in a country such as the United States where they can freely worship God without
major persecution, but still refuse to act upon the call of God, I think he/she might be a candidate for
the Lake of Fire, but God will be their judge.

On the other hand, a person that has lived in a country that doesn't allow Jesus Christ as their God
and will kill Christians such as in the middle east, they will be judged differently, because they didn't
have the opportunity to hear the Word of God as we do, and God will judge them according to their
situation. We seem to forget that God is a just God, but He is also a forgiving God and that's where
we as Christians fall short.

logabe,

Are you really asking: Are there degrees of punishment in hell [Gehenna]?