Since the anti-Christ is described as an angel that rises out of this place called the "bottomless pit" (where Satan will also be imprisoned for one thousand years), we have to pin point where this "pit" will be opened. If you've seen any of my threads, you should already know my answer to this question, so I won't waste my time. With that said, there is a ton of bickering between Christians about the specific region or location the anti-Christ will actually come from. We have to pin point where the pit will actually be opened on earth first before we even begin to answer this question. So my question is simple, where on earth will the anti-Christ arrive? Is it Europe? North America? South America? Canada? Africa? Middle East? Asia? Just pick a continent and show some scripture that gives some implications. Personally, I'm almost 100% certain that he's not going to come out of the middle east, but instead will brutalize his way towards the middle east and Israel, as the prophet Daniel strongly implies in the 11th chapter.
From what region does the beast ascend out of the pit?
- Thread starter BlackManINC
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
[email protected]
Choir Loft
You want scripture? You got it!
Every single indicator in Biblical prophecy indicates that the enemies of Israel, including the big kahuna of evil itself, will focus on the neighbors of Israel. In historic terms, this means the Levant. Without going into a lengthy quotation of scripture (which probably wouldn't be accepted anyway), ALL those the Bible indicates that will be allies against Israel will be nations surrounding that tiny country.
The Bible does not indicate specifically what nation will give birth to the man of sin, but it DOES tell us which nation hosts his throne. It's the modern nation of Turkey.
"to the angel of the church in PERGAMUM write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this: 'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith, even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells."
- Revelation 2:12-13
As always, there will be those who disagree with this quote of scripture, which names an actual place and city, because the Bible doesn't match their preconceptions (or their favorite political interpretation). Turkey, by the way, is on the northern part of the crescent of the ancient Levant. It's people are descendants of those who will participate in some sort of treaty and/or betrayal of the Jews and God's Holy City.
If the reader desires truth, then what is read must be accepted as such. On the other hand, if fantasy and subjective opinion is preferred then why look at the Bible at all.
The problem is that Biblical truth is also supported by secular history. When the words were set down (those words quoted above that named the city and nation of evil), it was also common knowledge that the Gate to Hell was nearby. Yes, an actual place was indicated (see news.discovery.com or google 'Gate to Hell Found in Turkey').
While we of the modern era are more cynical about ancient beliefs, those of the time of Christ held these things in common knowledge. Whether they believed implicitly in them remains a matter of conjecture, but they were matters that were discussed and held as general knowledge. The Gate to Hell mentioned in the web story was actually a sulfurous cavern or pit. Until recent times, springs of sulfur and lithium were popular because they calmed the nerves and healed certain ailments. People traveled to these places for relief as well as religious inspiration (assuming they could stand the stink). If you do your homework, you'll discover that the aforementioned ruins of the town of Plutonium (derived from the god Pluto, guardian of the underworld) are not very far geographically from Pergamum (or Pergamun depending upon spelling choices of your Biblical translation).
The modern nation of Turkey is in a direct line of political descent from that of ancient Rome. A century prior to the fall of Rome, the Empire was split east and west for purposes of better administration and economic expediency. Rome was the capital of the west and Byzantium became capital of the eastern Roman Empire. Under Emperor Constantine, Byzantium was renamed Constantinople. It's the same city as modern Istanbul.
Rome fell in 465AD and began the period western historians call the Middle Ages. But the eastern capital Constantinople remained vigorous and militarily powerful for nearly a thousand years. Constantinople fell in 1453 under Muslim leader Mehmet II. The fall of the eastern capital of the ancient Roman Empire marks the historic END of the period of the Middle Ages. It also severed the Silk Road, the western terminus of overland trade with the nations of the east - India and China. In an effort to restore trade, the leaders of Europe attempted to sail AROUND the Muslim Empire in the Levant and less than fifty years after the fall of Constantinople discovered America (1492).
But history and the political influence of the city of Constantinople didn't end with Mehmet's conquest. The city became the capital of the Ottoman Empire and the caliphate of Muslim rule for nearly another five hundred years. The Ottomans declined gradually over that period of time and the empire officially came to an end following defeat during WWI. In 1923 the modern republic of Turkey was founded. Although the capital was moved to Ankara, the city of Istanbul remains a bastion of political activity in the Levant - especially in the twenty first century.
When the Bible suggests that the anti-Christ will arise out of some sort of revived Roman Empire, the student of history and eschatology would be well advised to consider that ISTANBUL, not Rome was the longest surviving political entity in the region. Moreover there are powerful elements in Turkey that are praying and working and moving toward a restored Ottoman Empire - a restored caliphate under the leadership of a man of ancient Muslim legend called al-Mahdi.
It is interesting to note that Muslim predictions of the end times are nearly identical with those of Christian predictions. Of note is that they are a mirror image, not a precise match. The focus of both is Israel and the return of Jesus (or Isa as he is called in the Qur'an).(1)
The bottom line to all this is that the powers and personalities of the End Times will not originate elsewhere and then travel to the Levant. They will arise out of that region and influence the entire world with their mischief. More information is available to the person who seeks it out.
It is important to note that some Biblical interpretations suggest a revived Roman Empire in the days of the Second coming of Christ. It ought to be seriously considered that a revived Ottoman Empire - a DIRECT descendent of Roman power - is today being supported and encouraged and hoped for.(2)
The political and spiritual power of the anti-Christ will not originate anywhere but the place from which the Bible says it will. Modern media points to a political arrangement EXACTLY as the Bible predicted. No special spiritual revelation is necessary. One only needs to read.
and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(1)
[SIZE=medium]"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt."[/SIZE]
—Qur'an (19:30-35)
It is my opinion that the person mentioned in Qur'an 19 will be a false Christ who will mislead many and oppose the saints. I submit the above quotation for educational purposes only. I do NOT subscribe to the Muslim interpretation of the person of Jesus, who will support al-Mahdi in his machinations against Israel.
(2) The president of Turkey is Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who has ambitions of restoring the caliphate and sitting on that throne. Watch Erdogan!
Every single indicator in Biblical prophecy indicates that the enemies of Israel, including the big kahuna of evil itself, will focus on the neighbors of Israel. In historic terms, this means the Levant. Without going into a lengthy quotation of scripture (which probably wouldn't be accepted anyway), ALL those the Bible indicates that will be allies against Israel will be nations surrounding that tiny country.
The Bible does not indicate specifically what nation will give birth to the man of sin, but it DOES tell us which nation hosts his throne. It's the modern nation of Turkey.
"to the angel of the church in PERGAMUM write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this: 'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith, even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells."
- Revelation 2:12-13
As always, there will be those who disagree with this quote of scripture, which names an actual place and city, because the Bible doesn't match their preconceptions (or their favorite political interpretation). Turkey, by the way, is on the northern part of the crescent of the ancient Levant. It's people are descendants of those who will participate in some sort of treaty and/or betrayal of the Jews and God's Holy City.
If the reader desires truth, then what is read must be accepted as such. On the other hand, if fantasy and subjective opinion is preferred then why look at the Bible at all.
The problem is that Biblical truth is also supported by secular history. When the words were set down (those words quoted above that named the city and nation of evil), it was also common knowledge that the Gate to Hell was nearby. Yes, an actual place was indicated (see news.discovery.com or google 'Gate to Hell Found in Turkey').
While we of the modern era are more cynical about ancient beliefs, those of the time of Christ held these things in common knowledge. Whether they believed implicitly in them remains a matter of conjecture, but they were matters that were discussed and held as general knowledge. The Gate to Hell mentioned in the web story was actually a sulfurous cavern or pit. Until recent times, springs of sulfur and lithium were popular because they calmed the nerves and healed certain ailments. People traveled to these places for relief as well as religious inspiration (assuming they could stand the stink). If you do your homework, you'll discover that the aforementioned ruins of the town of Plutonium (derived from the god Pluto, guardian of the underworld) are not very far geographically from Pergamum (or Pergamun depending upon spelling choices of your Biblical translation).
The modern nation of Turkey is in a direct line of political descent from that of ancient Rome. A century prior to the fall of Rome, the Empire was split east and west for purposes of better administration and economic expediency. Rome was the capital of the west and Byzantium became capital of the eastern Roman Empire. Under Emperor Constantine, Byzantium was renamed Constantinople. It's the same city as modern Istanbul.
Rome fell in 465AD and began the period western historians call the Middle Ages. But the eastern capital Constantinople remained vigorous and militarily powerful for nearly a thousand years. Constantinople fell in 1453 under Muslim leader Mehmet II. The fall of the eastern capital of the ancient Roman Empire marks the historic END of the period of the Middle Ages. It also severed the Silk Road, the western terminus of overland trade with the nations of the east - India and China. In an effort to restore trade, the leaders of Europe attempted to sail AROUND the Muslim Empire in the Levant and less than fifty years after the fall of Constantinople discovered America (1492).
But history and the political influence of the city of Constantinople didn't end with Mehmet's conquest. The city became the capital of the Ottoman Empire and the caliphate of Muslim rule for nearly another five hundred years. The Ottomans declined gradually over that period of time and the empire officially came to an end following defeat during WWI. In 1923 the modern republic of Turkey was founded. Although the capital was moved to Ankara, the city of Istanbul remains a bastion of political activity in the Levant - especially in the twenty first century.
When the Bible suggests that the anti-Christ will arise out of some sort of revived Roman Empire, the student of history and eschatology would be well advised to consider that ISTANBUL, not Rome was the longest surviving political entity in the region. Moreover there are powerful elements in Turkey that are praying and working and moving toward a restored Ottoman Empire - a restored caliphate under the leadership of a man of ancient Muslim legend called al-Mahdi.
It is interesting to note that Muslim predictions of the end times are nearly identical with those of Christian predictions. Of note is that they are a mirror image, not a precise match. The focus of both is Israel and the return of Jesus (or Isa as he is called in the Qur'an).(1)
The bottom line to all this is that the powers and personalities of the End Times will not originate elsewhere and then travel to the Levant. They will arise out of that region and influence the entire world with their mischief. More information is available to the person who seeks it out.
It is important to note that some Biblical interpretations suggest a revived Roman Empire in the days of the Second coming of Christ. It ought to be seriously considered that a revived Ottoman Empire - a DIRECT descendent of Roman power - is today being supported and encouraged and hoped for.(2)
The political and spiritual power of the anti-Christ will not originate anywhere but the place from which the Bible says it will. Modern media points to a political arrangement EXACTLY as the Bible predicted. No special spiritual revelation is necessary. One only needs to read.
and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(1)
[SIZE=medium]"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt."[/SIZE]
—Qur'an (19:30-35)
It is my opinion that the person mentioned in Qur'an 19 will be a false Christ who will mislead many and oppose the saints. I submit the above quotation for educational purposes only. I do NOT subscribe to the Muslim interpretation of the person of Jesus, who will support al-Mahdi in his machinations against Israel.
(2) The president of Turkey is Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who has ambitions of restoring the caliphate and sitting on that throne. Watch Erdogan!
The president of Turkey had shown no desire to re-establish the caliphate of the Ottomans.
Hearsay is to be taken with a grain of salt. This is just paranoia by fearful westerners.
Also the present form of Israel is a false one.
Hearsay is to be taken with a grain of salt. This is just paranoia by fearful westerners.
Also the present form of Israel is a false one.
I agree because Revelation 2 gives no indication that Turkey is the place that Apollyon rises. The message to the church in Turkey at that time was simple, to never compromise and hold fast and firm to the faith, even in the face of persecution. Satans seat cannot be pin pointed to a specific location. The text is saying that where ever false religion arises, Satan is among them. This is why the letter was put in Revelation, to serve as a lesson and a warning to the church that will be on earth in the last days.pom2014 said:
ezekiel
Member
- Aug 14, 2013
- 272
- 10
- 18
- Faith
- Country
- United States
Now when the star reaches perihelion on its orbit meaning the star are in the northwest then the Angels will be sent out of Heaven and will touch the planet that orbits the star.
2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
When the Lord hits that planet it we be like a bees nest they will swarm on earth like locust. One planet down another yet to be destroyed.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Moreover we may hear it maybe even see it one thing for sure the planet parts and people parts will fall on Earth.
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
They will make war we us. I know you may say, but the two wittnesses are not here ? They been here and you have not known.
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
When the Lord hits that planet it we be like a bees nest they will swarm on earth like locust. One planet down another yet to be destroyed.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Moreover we may hear it maybe even see it one thing for sure the planet parts and people parts will fall on Earth.
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
They will make war we us. I know you may say, but the two wittnesses are not here ? They been here and you have not known.
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
To the OP
This fallen angelic beast [Abaddon/Appolyon] is Satan's "antichrist" who will operate in the human little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]
He will promote the religion of Islam .... "Allah" is the pagan crescent moon "god" of the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians that Mohammed picked from a pantheon of pagan "gods"
Allah is an imaginary "god" that does not exist, but is a cover for Satan .... the adherents of Islam are worshiping the devil and do not know it
This fallen angelic beast [Abaddon/Appolyon] is Satan's "antichrist" who will operate in the human little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]
He will promote the religion of Islam .... "Allah" is the pagan crescent moon "god" of the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians that Mohammed picked from a pantheon of pagan "gods"
Allah is an imaginary "god" that does not exist, but is a cover for Satan .... the adherents of Islam are worshiping the devil and do not know it
Good to know you've got the inside information of the enemy.
You know before the current manufacturer hysteria by the US, simply to keep the gullible masses in fear and control them, it was the Roman church that the enemy would use. Before that the Jews, a favourite scape goat.
Good to know that you've sorted that all out, until the next perceived threat comes along.
It'll probably be the buddists next as the Chinese will be the next logical bogeyman.
Machiavelli how we love you.
You know before the current manufacturer hysteria by the US, simply to keep the gullible masses in fear and control them, it was the Roman church that the enemy would use. Before that the Jews, a favourite scape goat.
Good to know that you've sorted that all out, until the next perceived threat comes along.
It'll probably be the buddists next as the Chinese will be the next logical bogeyman.
Machiavelli how we love you.
It is the very word of the Lord and His Bible prophets that have it all "sorted out" .... all of it
And by the way the buddists and the Chinese are not in the scope .... not there
So what is your story pom?
And by the way the buddists and the Chinese are not in the scope .... not there
So what is your story pom?
I've heard so many people say that or this or another. All have been motivated by the current climate of fear.
Now man points the finger at muslims because well they are scary again. No one back in the nineties,.eighties or seventies picked them. They picked the Roman church. Some still do.
Why I even remember fundamentalists said bar codes and computers were the work of Satan. Now these people all have websites and some use bar codes in their resale shops.
Every one changes their so called revelation over time.
So if it keeps changing what does that say?
It says humans don't really know what to make of prophecy. Which is fine with me. What will be will be ill let God take care of it.
I'll just keep going about my life and leave the wild speculation to those with a huge amount of time on their hands. The more they guess and get it wrong the more it plays into the enemies hand.
I try to warn against such speculation but humans love to guess what will be on the table before the menu is even printed.
Now man points the finger at muslims because well they are scary again. No one back in the nineties,.eighties or seventies picked them. They picked the Roman church. Some still do.
Why I even remember fundamentalists said bar codes and computers were the work of Satan. Now these people all have websites and some use bar codes in their resale shops.
Every one changes their so called revelation over time.
So if it keeps changing what does that say?
It says humans don't really know what to make of prophecy. Which is fine with me. What will be will be ill let God take care of it.
I'll just keep going about my life and leave the wild speculation to those with a huge amount of time on their hands. The more they guess and get it wrong the more it plays into the enemies hand.
I try to warn against such speculation but humans love to guess what will be on the table before the menu is even printed.
There is no wild speculation with me, when I make a claim, I back it up with scripture. Identifying the Antichrist isn't as clear cut as people make it out to be. He won't claim to be one or the other, because the Bible says quite plainly that the Antichrist will make a covenant with many, not just with the Jews as some have falsely claimed will occur. Why does it say he will make a covenant with many? Well its simple, its because the Antichrist will claim to be many things to virtually every creed in existence. To the Jews, he'll be the Jewish messiah, to the new age cult, he'll be the ascended master, to the atheist, he'll be the apex of the evolutionary tree of life, the missing link in the theory of evolution, to the Gnostic's, he'll be the Monad in the flesh, to the ancient alien cult, he'll be the ancient astronaut from another planet, to the Hindus, he'll be the kalki in the flesh. Apollyon will be many things to many people, and the world will fall head over heels in love with this cockroach.pom2014 said:
Well again I'll just leave it to God.
Won't happen in my lifetime so I won't lose sleep over where, when and who.
That'll be for the future, and I'll not worry about the future it'll take care of itself.
Won't happen in my lifetime so I won't lose sleep over where, when and who.
That'll be for the future, and I'll not worry about the future it'll take care of itself.
How old are you anyway? 90? If you are within that age range than I can understand, since I don't see much of this happening for another thirty to forty years anyway. However, Daniel says that before the Antichrist arrives, four diverse beasts rises out of the sea. What Daniel seems to be describing to me is that at some point before his arrival, all of the nations will unite under four different supranational or regional governments. The best example of something like this today would be the European Union. When you see this occur on a global scale, then the Antichrist won't be far behind who will merge all four beasts under his authority.pom2014 said:
Won't happen in thirty to forty years either.
We have no climate for the entrance of such a world leader.
I could see it being closer IF we had a world government, but we don't.
I could see it IF we had a true Israel, but we don't.
Again I'll let the future handle itself. Today already has enough issues to deal with.
We have no climate for the entrance of such a world leader.
I could see it being closer IF we had a world government, but we don't.
I could see it IF we had a true Israel, but we don't.
Again I'll let the future handle itself. Today already has enough issues to deal with.
Pom, the only "true Israel" spoken of in prophecy is the one God's gonna bring in on the clouds, so this is in no way an indication for how close we are to a world government, which by the way, doesn't even happen until years after the Antichrist arrives, not before as you seem to believe. Based on the various treaties that's been signed by all the nations of the world for the last sixty off years, we're a lot closer than you think.pom2014 said:
The EU is crumbling.
The treaty organisations are moot without a Soviet union.
NAFTA is bollocks.
The UN is as toothless as the league was.
So where is this nearly world government?
Even the Warsaw pact is gone. We're as fragmented as we were after WWI.
So tell me how we're close to a world government when they can't agree with one another even over currency let alone politics.
Don't buy the.paranoid delusional crowd's rantings as truth. They manufacture fear to make themselves seem wise.
The treaty organisations are moot without a Soviet union.
NAFTA is bollocks.
The UN is as toothless as the league was.
So where is this nearly world government?
Even the Warsaw pact is gone. We're as fragmented as we were after WWI.
So tell me how we're close to a world government when they can't agree with one another even over currency let alone politics.
Don't buy the.paranoid delusional crowd's rantings as truth. They manufacture fear to make themselves seem wise.
Which is why the Bible says the seven headed ten horned beast doesn't merge as a world government until years after Apollyon's arrival, and when it happens, it will be done very quickly, Pom, because he will get it done with brute force. He will make any war or genocide in the past or present look like child's play in comparison. And for the record, I used to listen to people like Alex Jones who rant on about a "new world order", and I'm not convinced that a truly global government is possible unless it happens the way the Bible says it will happen, not the way THEY claim it will occur. If you're just listening to those people without understanding prophecy and vice versa, then you're not getting the whole picture. And, "manufacturing fear" Pom? NOTHING the Alex Jones types have ever said even compares to the fearful days that will come upon the earth in Tribulation times. So if you want to talk "fear", then Bible prophecy is the absolute poster child for it.pom2014 said:
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, BlackManINC.
Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
Notice the little word “of” in the phrase “the people of the prince that shall come.” That’s called a “preposition” in English and the noun following that preposition is called the “object of the preposition.” The object of the preposition is NOT a part of the sentence proper; that is, it contains neither the subject nor the direct object nor any part of the predicate, although the whole prepositional phrase CAN be an adjective or an adverb, modifying the subject, the direct object, or the indirect object as an adjective phrase, or the verb, an adjective, or another adverb as an adverbial phrase.
The “he” of verse 27 (all three instances) in the King’s English CANNOT refer to the OBJECT of a preposition in the previous sentence!
The “he” must refer to the last subject that is a singular noun, even if the predicate is passive or reflexive! The “he,” therefore, MUST refer to the “Messiah” in verse 26!
Now, lest someone say, “Well, that’s just the English of the KJV,” let’s look at the Hebrew:
Dani'el 9:24-27
24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa
v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha l’kalei’ hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt
uwlkhapeer `aavon uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym
v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’ v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:
25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH
24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-decided
`al- = upon/against
`amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
v’`al- = and-upon/against
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
l’kalei’ = to-finish
hapesha` = the-transgression
uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
`aavon = iniquity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = of-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
v’taskeel = and-understand
min-= from
motsaa’ = going-forth
daavaar = [of]-word
l’haashiyv = to-restore
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad-= unto
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
naagiyd = Prince
shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = again
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
rchowv = avenue
v’chaaruwts = and-trench
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times:
26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = people
naagiyd = [of]-prince
habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-upon/against
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon/against
shomeem: = desolate:
24 Sevens seventy are-decided upon/against your-(singular)-people and-upon/against city your-(singular)-holy…
to-finish the-transgression
and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
and-to-anoint holy of-holies:
25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-upon/against a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured upon/against desolate:
24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided against your people and against your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-against a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured against desolate:
In Hebrew the back-to-back nouns in verse 26, “`am naagiyd,” are in the form of the "construct state.” That is, the first noun can be used in the sentence as a subject or object, but the second noun is used as a descriptive adjective to the first noun. In translation into English, it is always translated with the “of” in between these two nouns, whether the “phrase” is meant to show a possessive relationship or a description.
Therefore, the Hebrew also does not allow the word translated as “prince” to be used as either a subject or an object in the sentence. Therefore, again, the verbs without a subject in verse 27 that contain a singular, masculine ending, CANNOT be looking back to the second noun in the construct state! Thus, “higbiyr," “yashbiyt," and “m’shomeem" CANNOT be looking back to “nagged.” They MUST be looking back to “Maashiyach."
Oh, and “Apolluoon” (or “Abaddown" in Hebrew) does NOT refer to either “haSatan” OR the “Antichristos!” Both words mean “Destruction” (NOT “Destroyer”)! These names belong to the king of the locusts in Revelation 9, NOT to the Antichrist!
The Bible does NOT “quite plainly” say that the “Antichrist will make a covenant with many!” That is a POOR interpretation of Daniel 9:27! Look closely at the verse!BlackManINC said:
Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV
Notice the little word “of” in the phrase “the people of the prince that shall come.” That’s called a “preposition” in English and the noun following that preposition is called the “object of the preposition.” The object of the preposition is NOT a part of the sentence proper; that is, it contains neither the subject nor the direct object nor any part of the predicate, although the whole prepositional phrase CAN be an adjective or an adverb, modifying the subject, the direct object, or the indirect object as an adjective phrase, or the verb, an adjective, or another adverb as an adverbial phrase.
The “he” of verse 27 (all three instances) in the King’s English CANNOT refer to the OBJECT of a preposition in the previous sentence!
The “he” must refer to the last subject that is a singular noun, even if the predicate is passive or reflexive! The “he,” therefore, MUST refer to the “Messiah” in verse 26!
Now, lest someone say, “Well, that’s just the English of the KJV,” let’s look at the Hebrew:
Dani'el 9:24-27
24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa
v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha l’kalei’ hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt
uwlkhapeer `aavon uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym
v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’ v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:
25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in the JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH
24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-decided
`al- = upon/against
`amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
v’`al- = and-upon/against
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
l’kalei’ = to-finish
hapesha` = the-transgression
uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
`aavon = iniquity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = of-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
v’taskeel = and-understand
min-= from
motsaa’ = going-forth
daavaar = [of]-word
l’haashiyv = to-restore
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad-= unto
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
naagiyd = Prince
shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = again
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
rchowv = avenue
v’chaaruwts = and-trench
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times:
26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = people
naagiyd = [of]-prince
habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-upon/against
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon/against
shomeem: = desolate:
24 Sevens seventy are-decided upon/against your-(singular)-people and-upon/against city your-(singular)-holy…
to-finish the-transgression
and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
and-to-anoint holy of-holies:
25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-upon/against a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured upon/against desolate:
24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided against your people and against your holy city…
(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint Holy of Holies:
25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-against a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured against desolate:
In Hebrew the back-to-back nouns in verse 26, “`am naagiyd,” are in the form of the "construct state.” That is, the first noun can be used in the sentence as a subject or object, but the second noun is used as a descriptive adjective to the first noun. In translation into English, it is always translated with the “of” in between these two nouns, whether the “phrase” is meant to show a possessive relationship or a description.
Therefore, the Hebrew also does not allow the word translated as “prince” to be used as either a subject or an object in the sentence. Therefore, again, the verbs without a subject in verse 27 that contain a singular, masculine ending, CANNOT be looking back to the second noun in the construct state! Thus, “higbiyr," “yashbiyt," and “m’shomeem" CANNOT be looking back to “nagged.” They MUST be looking back to “Maashiyach."
Oh, and “Apolluoon” (or “Abaddown" in Hebrew) does NOT refer to either “haSatan” OR the “Antichristos!” Both words mean “Destruction” (NOT “Destroyer”)! These names belong to the king of the locusts in Revelation 9, NOT to the Antichrist!
Retrobyter said:
I don't take anybody that tells me that I have to learn the Hebrew language to understand scripture seriously. You know what much of what you just wrote means to me? Pure Gibberish, it makes no sense at all and you didn't even make a real point. Its almost akin to watching some fool speak in tongues without interpretation. You don't have a real argument if you can't explain it in Kings English for all to clearly understand. However, at least the very last sentence of gibberish is easier to understand than the rest of it. To my understanding, you are trying to say that Apollyon does NOT refer to Satan. I never said it did so um, yeah, moving along. Your next point that's worth addressing is that Apollyon does not refer to the Antichrist. And apparently, this is based solely on your private interpretation with nothing to back it up in Kings English scripture, because it says in many ways quite plainly, that Apollyon IS the beast of Revelation, even before he was even referred as the seven headed ten horned of Revelation 13.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, BlackManINC.
What I said was simple enough. I wasn’t telling you you had to learn Hebrew (although I think it WOULD help). I was telling you that the text of Daniel 9:27 doesn’t support the “Antichrist” theory. Thus, HE is not the One who strengthens the covenant; HE is not the One who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; HE is not the One who made the city desolate “for the overspreading of abominations!"
Yeshua` (Jesus) is the One who strengthened the Davidic Covenant by simply BEING the Son of God! (Psalm 89:18-28)
Yeshua` (Jesus) is the One who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease by being the ONE Sacrifice, ONCE FOR ALL! (Heb. 10:1-22)
Yeshua` (Jesus) is the One who left the city DESOLATE because of their CONSTANT REJECTION! (Matt. 23:38)
Therefore, this verse, Daniel 9:27, has NOTHING to do with the “Antichrist!"
What I said was simple enough. I wasn’t telling you you had to learn Hebrew (although I think it WOULD help). I was telling you that the text of Daniel 9:27 doesn’t support the “Antichrist” theory. Thus, HE is not the One who strengthens the covenant; HE is not the One who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; HE is not the One who made the city desolate “for the overspreading of abominations!"
Yeshua` (Jesus) is the One who strengthened the Davidic Covenant by simply BEING the Son of God! (Psalm 89:18-28)
Yeshua` (Jesus) is the One who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease by being the ONE Sacrifice, ONCE FOR ALL! (Heb. 10:1-22)
Yeshua` (Jesus) is the One who left the city DESOLATE because of their CONSTANT REJECTION! (Matt. 23:38)
Therefore, this verse, Daniel 9:27, has NOTHING to do with the “Antichrist!"
Similar threads
