The beam in the eye of the church from your original message was that their programmes were being curtailed by the government stating that gays could adopt and the churches felt they had more moral right to deny that child from finding a family due to sexual orientation.
shnarkle: Their program wasn't being curtailed. They just flat out complied with the law as soon as they realized that they were going to be penalized for discriminating against the new privileged class. They weren't denying any children from finding a family. The families were waiting in line. Now they just have to wait that much longer as the new privileged class just got to cut into the line in front of them.
---------------------------------------------
This is what I am getting at when I said that Moses' mother let gentiles raise him rather than he die. If she had been like these churches you speak of she would NEVER let some dirty gentile have him.
shnarkle: False dichotomy. We aren't dealing with a situation where these babies were in danger of never being placed with a family, much less with death. There is no need to switch the characters to suit your agenda. The governments are equivalent in each case, even the reasons for their legislation are similar. In the case of Moses, the government is concerned with the Israelites becoming too numerous and powerful so they want to even the odds; they want something more egalitarian. The same is true today. In the modern scenario the governenet isn't killing the baby, instead the government is forcing the baby to be placed with a homosexual couple. In both cases it is a case of government coercion. In the former example death is the government solution, in the latter it is placement with homosexual couples. Moses' mother simply opts out of the government solution and that's what the church did as well. It's what mother's who would rather adopt, but who don't want their babies to end up with homosexual couples are going to do as well.
--------------------------------------------
This is why the government hits the churches because they cannot obey the law on allowing gays equal rights.
shnarkel: Again, you seem to be drawing from some sort of fictinoal history. The churches were obeying the law, and continued to obey the law. They were essentially given an ultimatum: place children with homosexual couples or get out of the adoption business. They chose the latter. They didn't break the law. At least the government gave them the option. You're condemnign them for obeying the law. You just don't like their choice. You'd rather they had no freedom of choice. You'd much prefer that they be forced to work against their will like a bunch of slaves.
-------------------------------------------
Same issue with the baker and the wedding cake for gays.
shnarkle: No, this red herring is a different animal altogether. In the baker scenario, he is being forced to support a political agenda. He was asked to write "Support Gay Marriage" on one of his cakes. He refused and was sued. Ask the Jewish Holocaust survivor to write "support the final solution" on the cake for the nazi, ask the animal rights activist to cater the researchers experimenting on animals, etc. They'll refuse until the day comes when nazi's and those doing animal research get their privileged status as well.
------------------------------------------
Let the child have a home, even IF gay, and let God bring that child back to him when the time is right. Like he did Moses.
shnarkle; No, I would say let the church do what it wants to because this is supposed to be a free country. If you or anyone else thinks that they can do a better job, then go ahead and open your own adoption agency. Let the market decide. Let the people who have babies that they want to put up for adoption take them to the adoption agency that they want to. Notice also that you're explicitly placing yourself on the side of the government that is in favor of killing Israelite babies.
----------------------------------------------
But no, from what you said and still maintain, that they would rather NOT be in adoption as they won't follow a law (breaking what Paul said in Romans 13:1-8) of the government, even when on that rare occasion that law satisfied the Second Great Command.
shnarkle; Contrary to your insistent, and I might add baseless; assertion, the church didn't break any laws. They simply complied with the law and handed their agency over to the government. Now we all have to pay for it, and you're complaining about the cost and finding fault with them for complying with the law.
-----------------------------------------------------------
It is SO RARE when that happens, but here it did and the church said NO.
shnarkle: Not even close. They said, Okay, if you insist, we'll get out of the adoption business. To force them to stay in against their will is slavery in case you didn't know that.
----------------------------------------------------------
Further your assertion that the government is incapable of running things efficiently is also false.
shnakle: I'm not sure that's what I said, although the government is pretty inefficient now that I think about it. The point I do remember making was that you were lamenting the cost, and I pointed out that the church didn't cost the tax payer a single dime which is pretty efficient compared to what we have to pay now.
------------------------------------------------------------
They have made the interstate work for years longer than it was intended, keep the time, make sure your water is clean for drinking and showering, protect us from war on your own soil, make sure you have clean and safe food and many other things.
shnarkle: That's debatable, and also another red herring.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Your government is quite effective in many areas.
shnarkle Yeah, sure that's why we have a national debt that is impossible to pay back. That's why our economy is going so strong that half the population is on government assistance. That's why there are over a million ex pats (the number is quickly growing) who don't file with the IRS anymore. That's why the government has begun to raise the application fee for renouncing citizenship. That's why the waiting list to renounce take over 3 years for them to get to it. That's why the Baltic Dry Index is down lower than it was when the last recession hit in 2008. That's why people are hoarding money. That's why governments and banks around the world are conspiring to figure out how to "bail in" and steal depositor's money out of their accounts. That's why the government is debasing our currency with ZIRP, QE, etc. The government is efficient at making useless laws, stealing, and kiliing people. Yeah, that's it, our government has to print TRILLIONS of dollars to keep this casino/ponzi scheme going because it's so efficient. lol Just keep on believing the lies the media shovels out; live in Oz for another day.
-----------------------------------------------------
What it boils down to you have no trust of it and why? Because you wanted someone else to monitor your republic when YOU are the final arbiter in its actions.
shnarkle: ?
----------------------------------------------------
But it would mean actually doing something like get into the street and possibly get hit with a rubber bullet or a water cannon.
shnarkle: Yeah, right. That's it. That's going to make a difference lol. I'm already aware that we're living in a banana republic so there's no need to go protest just so I can feel like I've accomplished something when I haven't. No, if I want to make a change in our government, I'll lobby like everyone else who is able to get what they want from the government. Why would I waste my time getting shot at when I could just draw up a law and have a lobbiest pass it on to their page boy, aka "congressional representative"? Don't they teach civics anymore?
=============================
Pom I have been posting on this issue for years....I am glad to see that you are bringing it up because the best way to fight abortion is by promoting christian adoption. The shakers and Quarters fought against slavery by buying the freedom for thousands of slaves. We need to do the same type of radical intervention for mothers and babies stuck in poverty and addiction who face the evil of abortion.
shnarkle: Not too long ago there was a news blurb about a Planned Parenthood getting their permits to build an abortion clinic, but when the contractor went to get the cement the cement company refused to sell to the contractors. He was the only game in town so Planned Parenthood had to cut their losses and move on. There are also some new laws just coming into effect that require abortion clinics to be able to have admitting status at a hospital in case of emergencies. Its an end run strategy to shut them down. The hospitals won't give them the permission they need so they can't do business. It's a similar strategy that the homosexuals used with church adoption agencies.
=============================
But here is the rub. Most Christians are well and fine with opening up their wallets for a church bake sale, a new steeple or even some food to be sent to a place they never heard of before; but they seem to be at pains to shell out the coin for adoption programmes.
shnarkle: LOL! They don't have any problem forking out money to the Catholic church's adoption agencies, but you don't seem to have any problem with them being forced to exercise their moral standards there, except of course when they do exercise their moral standards. lol. They refused to stop adopting to heterosexual couples in favor of the new privileged class, which is effectively what they were being forced to do.
----------------------------------------------------
They like to talk a big game about abortion, but outside of complaining or the odd street side demonstration, they are not really doing anything about the issue.
shnarkel: Evidently ignorance is bliss. There are plenty of churches actively educating people on the benefits of adoption over abortion, not to mention waiting until marriage to engage in sexual activity. Numerous programs run by churches dealing with the emotional and physical harm done to women, and counseling them to help them deal with these scars. Furtrhermore, the tide seems to be changing. More and more people are rethinking how horrible and barbaric abortion really is. More and more people are going to see how much better it is for a child to be brought up in a household with one mother and one father as well. There are already people speaking out on this issue who love their gay parents, but are voicing the fact that they missed out not having a mother or father. The militant homosexual community is ready to burn them at the stake. cause it's "for the children".
