Communication with the bodily dead

Eccl.8:8. Note that the spirit is not a person when it returns to God.This is clearly illustrated by Jesus death for us, the foundation of all doctrine from the scripture: Christ “make his soul an offering for sin…. poured out his soul unto death” Isa.53:10&12. Christ’s soul and body went into the grave 3 days, and his spirit went to God the father the day he died on the cross, not after the resurrection: Christ on the cross-“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit” Luke 23:46. It is not saying the spirit as the conscious part of Christ went to heaven that day, but that the spirit as a none personal element went back to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7). Christ’s soul was in the grave for 3 days “the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” Mat. 12:40. He ascended to the Father after his resurrection: “He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption” Acts 2:31. The soul is considered to be man’s being, but the spirit is “the breath of the spirit of life” taken away from him (committed to God).

Take note that before the Ascension of Yeshua Into heaven, the Souls actually could speak to them. Remember Samuel and Saul? The Witch of Endor had the gift to call forth the dead, remember YHWH gives gifts and callings without repentance Romans 11:29. Some argue that it was a demon impersonating Samuel, I believe it was actually samuel Telling Saul he was going to Die. It was forbidden nonetheless, ever before or after Yeshua HaMashiach Came. When he ascended, no one could no longer call forth the Dead, because the Golfs of Abraham's Bosom and Hell were no longer in existence. All those in Abraham's bosom presently or later to come all go to Heaven. Then Judgment

(David323;28057)
I know from the rich man / Lazarus story that those in hell can not communicate with the earthly living. What about the saints in Heaven? I would think probably not but I would like to know where in the Bible it says they can't.
the dead don't know anything anymore...Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

I agree RyanIf they dont know anything they cant comunicate. All this other stuff is metaphor, dreams etc.read this it might helpWhat is man that God is mindful of him? Man was created in God’s image, but what does that mean? Does it mean that man is a spirit like God? Does it mean that God has a physical body like ours? Or does it refer to the quality of the mind God gave him? Is it all the above and more? Why does God come in the likeness of man to save man thru rebirth? What is this rebirth and eternal life? What is the judgment for sin? To understand what man is, it is helpful to contrast angels and man to God. “But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man(referring to Jesus), that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;” Heb.2: “And of the angels he saith; Who maketh his angels spirits” Heb1:7. Speaking of Jesus he saith; “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham” Heb.2:16. It is important to note that angels are a different form of spirit than God, because “God is a Spirit”(John 4:24.) and Jesus(God) took not the form of an angel which is a spirit also, but took the form of man. Christ’s spiritual nature has “life in himself” John 5:26 but angle’s spirit get their life from Christ who is “sustaining all things by his powerful word” Heb1:3. “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Phil.2:5-8. “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people” Heb.2:16-17. So what is man, if God and angels are spirit and Jesus did not take on the form of a spirit(angel)? What form is man that Jesus took on if it is not spirit? “And the Lord God formed man of the dust (body) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life: and man became a living soul.” Gen. 2:7. This states that man became a living soul with component parts of dust, spirit, and soul; not a living spirit or body. < “I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” 1 Thes.5:23.> The bible often speaks of man as if he were a body, a soul, or a spirit, attributing the characteristics of a person to each of the three parts individually. This has caused many to believe that man is a living spirit that can live apart from the body or a living body instead of a living soul made up of a body, soul and spirit. Example:· Body: “For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” Gen.3:19.· Soul: “ My soul longeth… even fainteth for the courts of the Lord” Psalm 84:2. “thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” 3John 1:2 · Spirit: “preached unto the spirits in prison” 1Peter 3:19. To illustrate why the bible speaks of any part as the whole person, take a coil (the body) and run electricity (spirit) through it. What you get is a third element which is a magnetic field (the soul). What created the magnetism (the soul)? Both, increase the power of the electric current or the number of coils in the coil and you get a stronger magnetic field. The magnetic field needs the coil and electricity to function. Illustration 2: Your soul likened unto software (brain) for a computer, your body is like a computer which is run by the electricity (your spirit). All 3 are needed to make it function. However the focus in the bible is the living soul not a living spirit. So whenever a person is referred to in the bible (as you, them, him, etc.) with out making reference to one of the parts, it refers to the whole person (body, soul, and spirit) not the body or soul or spirit alone. The soul needs the body and spirit to express itself. The following scripture illustrate the focus on the soul for major issues:· “The soul that sins, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4. · The object of our salvation, “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls” 1Peter 1:8-9.· “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” Math 10:28.· “We are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul” Heb. 10:39.· Speaking of Jesus: “make his soul an offering for sin…. poured out his soul unto death” Isa.53:10&12· At the 1st death the body and soul go to the grave, and the spirits of all men go back to God. Soul: “What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul form the hand of the grave” Psalm 89:47-49 Body: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (both righteous and wicked people’s spirit) Eccl.12:7. Spirit: “There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit” Eccl.8:8. Note that the spirit is not a person when it returns to God.This is clearly illustrated by Jesus death for us, the foundation of all doctrine from the scripture: Christ “make his soul an offering for sin…. poured out his soul unto death” Isa.53:10&12. Christ’s soul and body went into the grave 3 days, and his spirit went to God the father the day he died on the cross, not after the resurrection: Christ on the cross-“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit” Luke 23:46. It is not saying the spirit as the conscious part of Christ went to heaven that day, but that the spirit as a none personal element went back to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7). Christ’s soul was in the grave for 3 days “the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” Mat. 12:40. He ascended to the Father after his resurrection: “He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption” Acts 2:31. The soul is considered to be man’s being, but the spirit is “the breath of the spirit of life” taken away from him (committed to God). “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:” Phil.2-5. The mind and its capacity to reflect the attributes of God’s character is probably the major aspect of being made in God’s image. After man had sinned, sin consumed him and separated him from God’s Holy Spirit: “ Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh” Gen.6:3. The day man sinned he died spiritually, meaning he no longer had Gods Spirit in him to guide him. “Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” Rom.8:9. Man choose to live without God’s Spirit and depended on his own self (flesh, carnal, that which is of the world) and not God. “For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom.8:7-8. For it is by Gods Spirit all things are understood, “for without me (God) ye can do nothing” John 15:5. The born again person is dead to sin but alive to God. Man without Gods Spirit is dead to God but alive to sin. Just as Christ died for sin “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom.6:11 “For if ye live after the flesh(not receiving things of the Spirit), ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” Rom.8:13 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” Rom.8:14. “to be carnally minded is Death; but to be spiritually minded is life”Rom.8:6 “The natural man(flesh or carnal nature) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned.” 1Cor.2:14. “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”Rom.4:17. This principle is illustrated through out the Bible. · God considers saved man as perfect even though man is not perfect, the process of growing us in Christ’s image is not completed until the resurrection when he returns for us(Phil.1:6): “With one sacrifice he made perfect forever those who are being made holy.” Heb.10:14. · God also considers those that are dead to his Spirit but alive to sin (“the souls alive” Ezekiel 13:18-19) as if they were really dead because “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of god abidedth on him.” John 3:35. But the wrath of God is not executed until the end of the age: “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”2Pet. 3:7.· “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,” Eph.2:4-6. We are not actually there yet or raised from the dead, but considered to be a new creation raised from the dead and seated with Christ in heaven through Christ now (Roman 6). “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”KJ. God has a plan to save man “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2Peter 3:9. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” John 3:16. “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” John 3:3-8. What does the bible mean to be born again, born again of water and Spirit? The people of the old testament should also have understood this: “Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?” John 3:8:9-10. “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” Gal.4:28-29. The following scripture explain born of water and Spirit and apply it to the body, soul, and spirit. It illustrates that rebirth is the word of God put into our heart by the work and leading of God the Holy Spirit.· “give us birth by the word of truth” James 1:18 · “with the washing of water by the word,” Ep.5:26 · “he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;” Titus3:5.· “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren; being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God.” 1Pet.1:22-23. · “our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith” Heb.20:22-23. “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” Rom. 12:1-2. “for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” 1Cor.3:16-17 The bible speaks of having a fallen nature and applies it to the body, soul, and spirit. It is apparent that nothing about man is holy yet, however man is considered to be a holy person by the Spirit of God dwelling in him through the death of Christ. “God…. calleth those things which be not as though they were.”KJ. Without God’s Spirit living with us and leading us it is impossible to do good(spiritual things) “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness…. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”Rom.8:7-10&14 Life and existence is only by the power of Christ. Christ defines himself as I am; “say unto the children of Israel, I Am has sent me unto you…. The Lord God of your fathers… this is my name forever…” Exodus 3:3-15. “Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:56-58. He is the self eternal existing one, “through whom everything exists” Heb.2:10, including spirits and souls. “sustaining all things by his powerful word” Heb1:3. “For our God is a consuming fire. Heb. 12:29. We exist eternally only in Christ by his power: “In him we…. have our being…” Acts 17:28. Our life is in the son: “And this is the record that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” 1 John 5:11-12. We do not have life in ourselves: “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself” John 5:26. “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” Rom.8:9. “Christ, who is our life,” Col.2:4. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of god abidedth on him.” John 3:35. The wrath of God is not executed until the end of the age: “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” 2Pet. 3:7. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2Pet.3:9. Until the end of the age the “rain falls on the just and unjust” and we are to “do good unto your enemy”. The wicked and righteous souls are alive by the power of God; “seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things” Acts 17:25. In Christ we have live eternal. Without Christ we are alive only for a short time, “to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished” 2Pet.2:9, were the soul that sins shall die, therefore they are called the living dead because the wrath of God Abides on them. For the saved: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Col.3:3, “Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.” Luke 18:30, “and in the world to come eternal life.” Mark 10:30. “Whoever lives and believes in me, will never die” John 11:27 also refers to soul sleep till the resurrection were it awakes, for it is subject to the grave till then. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” Math 10:28, the soul is not destroyed in the first death but the second death, were God executes his judgment on sinners. This is why it is said “and in the world to come eternal life.” Mark 10:30 when the soul awakes from sleep. Death penalty:2nd Death:Contrast with the characteristic of Christ. Contrast: I Am/ no more, eternal:“and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezek. 28:13-19. This is referring to both man and the fallen angel Lucifer. “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.” Psalm 104:35. “For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen….they shall be as though they had not been.” Obadiah 15-16. “And there shall be no more death….for the former things are passed away.” Rev. 21:4. “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” Rev. 20:14.Execution of death penalty: Its execution can not be stopped: “to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44.“to be cast into everlasting fire.” Math.18:8. The duration of the execution is limited: “How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: ….. and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.” Rev.18:7-8. note that this is not endless torment but limited by how much evil she did. Also “shall be beaten with many stripes.” Luke 12:47 not endless strips. “devoured them” Rev.20:9. “burned up” 2Peter 3:7. “Sodom & Gomorrha… example,….eternal fire.” Jude 7. The results are eternal: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.” 2 Thess.1:9 (not everlasting destructing, but destruction that shall not be reversed, the process is limited). “these shall go away into everlasting punishment” Math.25:46. Example: Contrast use of eternal in terms of results not execution. Eternal: “eternal salvation” Heb. 5:9, not forever saving, but saved by one act forever. “eternal judgment” Heb. 2:9, not judging forever, but an act of judgment which is irrevocable. “eternal redemption” Heb. 9:12, not a redeeming act that takes forever to accomplish, but an act that took 3 days, that releases you forever from death. “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Math. 25:46. The punishment for sin is death, which lasts forever, not forever dying. Even creation testifies to this, in this world death is considered the worst punishment for a crime, not because of the length of suffering, but because you can’t participate in anything anymore.. “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.”Rev.20:10. Compare: Jonah in the belly of the whale “the earth with her bars was about me forever” Jonah 2:6, yet “Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.” Jonah 1:17. Also, Christ, who paid the price for eternal death for us, who was dead three days in the grave. The duration of eternal is related to the nature of the subject it refers to in the bible. For Satan who did the greatest sin, his execution duration will probably be 3 days, as Christ was in the grave. But the end result of the eternal fire for all sin and sinners is:“never shalt thou be any more.” Ezek. 28:13-19, which is the second death. “and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev.21:4. Answer to some commonly misunderstood scripture: Many misunderstanding are cleared up when taken in context, with the foundation of the scripture on the nature of man stated above. Consideration A: God will bring the spirits of the dead with him when he returns to get their bodies. “ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep.” 1Thess.4:13-15. Many interpret this to mean that the spirits of those who have died are coming back with Jesus, when he comes the 2nd time, to get their bodies. To get the correct meaning we need to understand the question and how it is being answered. Many Christians feared that Jesus already came the 2nd time and went back to heaven without them or that there would be no resurrection. · “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.” 2Thess.2:1-2. · “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?” 1Cor.15:12. · “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” 1Thess.4:13.He informs them that this is not so, then he explains in detail how those living and those who have died (sleep) will go together with Jesus back to heaven.· “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.” 1Thess.4:14-15. He then explains in detail how we will go back to together with Jesus to heaven.· “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1Thess.4:16-17. The Bible consistently tells us the we will not be with Christ until he returns the second time:· “I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1Thess.5:23.· “And to wait for his Son from heaven” 1Thess.1:10 · “that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 1Cor.5:5.· “Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward…. “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” John 13:36-14:3.· “will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” Heb.9:28. Consideration B:Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” 1Cor.5:8 Many Christians believe that this means that when we die our spirit leaves the body to be the Jesus. However, this verse is the conclusion to the preceding 7 verses where he did not want to be found naked (absent from the body) but to be clothed with his house (body) from heaven (2nd coming, 1Cor.15) and thus be with the Lord.:· 2Cor. 5:1 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” This house is in reference to what Christ said: John 13:36 “Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now: but thou shalt follow me afterwords.” John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.” This is referring to the 2nd coming. · 2cor5:2 “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.” Naked refers to the 1st death were our earthly body sees corruption as did David’s. Paul did not look forward to being found dead, but being resurrected with his heavenly body or as he put it “desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven.” · 2cor. 5:4 “For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed (dead), but clothed upon(house from heaven), that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” (referring to the 1st resurrection). This is referring to 1Cor. 15: 54 “So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” Which occurs at the 1st resurrection when Christ returns for us. · 2cor. 5:5 “Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore (based on the previous 4 verses) we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” “To be present with the Lord” is referring, to the putting off this earthly tabernacle which “cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”(1Cor. 15:50), and receiving our new house from heaven at the resurrection. So will we be present with the Lord. Remember he did not want to be unclothed which was the 1st death-sleep, but to be clothed with our house from heaven, the resurrection body. 2Cor. 5:1 “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” This house is in reference to what Christ said: John 13:36 “Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now: but thou shalt follow me afterwords.” John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also”:Consideration C: Thief on the cross “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43. This is a punctuation error and should read: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” There is no punctuation in the original language. Jesus died that day and went to the grave for 3 days, so he did not go to paradise until another day, paradise is in Heaven: “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Rev.2:7. “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,” Rev.22:1-2. “Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;” Zechariah 9:12. This is a similar example which was fulfilled on a different day.Consideration D: Not God of the dead but living for we will never die: “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.” John 11:25-26 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” John 8:51. “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Math.22:29-32. Many people believe that when the bible says we shall never see death because God is not God of the dead but the living, that this refers to the idea we are living spirits which go to be with God at death, and that it is our body which dies. This however can not be correct because God did not take upon him the form of a spirit but that of a living soul: “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels(spirits); but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” Heb.2:16. Abraham is a living soul, not a living spirit in Genesis 2:7. The soul is subject to the grave during the 1st death: “for thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;” Psalm 16:9-11. Shall never die refers to the 2nd death which is the penalty for sin, because Heb. 9:27 says “it is appointed unto men once to die” referring to the 1st death. The 1st death is called sleep by Jesus because the soul is not destroyed until the 2nd death: “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Math.10:28). This is why the bible is also able to say that God is God of the Living and the Dead(sleeping) also: “For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead(sleeping righteous, not the wicked dead) and living.” Rom.14:7-11. The body is not the focus, see Math.10;28. But “the soul that sins it shall die”, Eze.18:4.Consideration E:“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.” Phil.1:21-24 To depart and be with Christ is thought by many to refer to our conscious spirit departing from the body to be in the presence of Christ at the 1st death. But this view contradicts what Paul says further on in Phil.3:10-11 “that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead” which is referring to the 2nd coming to be with Christ. “ For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” Phil.3:20. “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power”. Rev.20:5-6. Paul realized that the 1st death is but a sleep, one that passes you through time instantly arriving at the time of Christ 2nd coming. John 5:24 “I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed form death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” Note that they awaken at the resurrection, which is in the future and also now is (God declares those things that are not as if they are, time sometimes has no relevance). There is also the possibility, that “to be present with Christ” is applied to the 1st death of Paul only. There are a few who have died and been resurrected and a couple of people who never died that have gone into heaven as examples of the 2nd coming transformation of God’s people: · Math. 27:50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost, 51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52. And the graves were opened; and many (note: not all the saints) bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” These resurrected saints were an example of the 2nd coming resurrection, they were people who died in Christ that the people living then were acquainted with so that they may know Christ and the power of life, therefore they went into the city and appeared to many. These also went back to heaven (as we will at the 2nd coming) with him. Eph. 4:8 “Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive( or he led a host ),” Likewise he will come back for us and bring us with him to the Fathers House in heaven, and their we will be until he creates the New heaven and earth.· All the saints of old were not refered to in the resurrected saints of Math.27:53, but only a few of the one Christ that the people living then were acquainted with so that they may know Christ and the power of life. The fact that the soul goes to be with God at the second coming is strongly illustrated in Acts written after Christ ascended to heaven: “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption” Act 13:33-37. “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and hid sepulcher is with us unto this day.” Act 2:29. “For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.” Acts2:34. David speaking of Christ: “He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” Act 2:30-31. Acts contrasts Christ & David: Christ died, his body did not see corruption, his soul was not left in hell, Christ soul ascended to the heavens after his resurrection; David died, his body saw corruption, and his soul was left in the grave until the 1st resurrection. “David did is not ascended into the heavens”, “fell on asleep…”, sleep as 1st death. “Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul form the hand of the grave?” The soul takes part in first death/sleep as well as the body! Psalm 89:47-49.· Math.16:27-28 “ For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” None of those people are here today, so how could they see the 2nd coming. They saw a for-shadow of this event: the Glorified Christ in the Fathers glory, and an example of the resurrected glorified dead (Moses), and an example of the glorified living (Elijah) at his 2nd coming. Math. 17:1-9 “And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James , and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2. And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun , and his raiment was white as the light. 3. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elisas talking with him……….9. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again form the dead.” Elijah never died, but was cought up to heaven. And because this event was to show the Glory of the second coming of Christ, Moses had to represent the risen dead in Christ, and Jesus was transfigured to show his glory at that event. (A soul by itself could not represent that glory, for the Kingdom of God refers to us entering it with a glorified body, so it is probable that the dispute from the devil in heaven over the body of Moses was due to the fact the devil didn’t want Moses resurrected. Jude 9 “when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses”) 2 Kings 2:11 “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

(ryan;28077)
the dead don't know anything anymore...Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Read in context, Ecclesiastes is telling us to live life while we have the opportunity. However, other scriptures demonstrate that the dead are quite aware.Paul says that they are a great cloud of witnesses that surround us. Isn't it kind of difficult to surround people if you're not aware of them?Lazarus, sitting in Abraham's bosom certainly 'knew things'. Abraham knew that Lazarus could not cross over to hell with water for those there.When asked to send Lazarus to the living to warn them, Abraham did not say this was forbidden or not possible. He simply said that if they wouldn't listen to Moses, they wouldn't be convinced if someone was raised from the dead.The man in hell certainly knew he was in torment.And in the book of Jeremiah, Rachel is seen weeping for her children who are in captivity. However, Rachel has been dead for hundreds of years at that time.

There is only a few scriptures that appear to speak to dead,but only a few which leads one to beleave that maybe they were symboloc language. the majority of scripture leads one to beleave the dead knows nothing. Old testement believers new the dead knew nothing, they werent going anywhere.I think everyone at this sight shoult really look at this topic and read the scripture on it. This is a doctorine that has been mis-read for years.

Ecclesiastes was talking about the Bodily Dead, not their Spirits.

What about Catholics that think they can pray to Saints.

(Wakka;28295)
What about Catholics that think they can pray to Saints.
It is a false teaching, that's for sure. Every single flesh before us (except Elijah and Enoch, for they did not get the taste of the flesh death) died. What makes them sure that "the saints" can hear their prayers? I'll stick with God only. He only can hear prayers.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

Greetings and God bless you!The following information is from a fellow-Christian and friend with whom I am in agreement regarding "are the dead alive now." It is rather a long post so I have divided it into two sections.PART IMatthew 24: 24 – For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.II Corinthians 4:4 -- In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.‘Elect’ in Matthew 24: 24 is referring to the "chosen out, preferred, selected". Is it possible you fall into this category? Can you be deceived by the god of this world who is second in power to the true God and Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? You may have been up to this point in your life, but if you believe the Word of God stated in this teaching, you will never again be confused as to the answer to the question presented in the title of this teaching.This is one of two subjects that can cause no end of confusion among believers. I refer to these people as ‘unbelieving believers’. They do not study God’s Word rightly divided, but choose, by their own free will, to believe the commandments, doctrines, and traditions of men. Our center of reference for all of our learning and teaching is the Word of God and nothing but the Word.In II Corinthians, God gives us more information about the type of people that Satan uses to carry out his manipulation of God’s truth. Remember, if you are not studying the genuine, you will never recognize the counterfeit. Satan is a master of deception and as I’ve always said: "If you think you can’t be tricked, you already have been." By studying and applying God’s Word in your everyday life, your thoughts will be crystal clear and you will have the ability to separate truth from error.II Corinthians 11: 13, 14, 15 – For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.These are tremendous Scriptures. You should study them much. God speaks to you clearly on this subject warning you about the methods and devices of the devil.Did you know that your life is made up of the sum total of all the decisions you have ever made? After you read this teaching, YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION. Either the dead are alive or they are dead until Jesus Christ returns.Can you imagine Jesus Christ returning to raise everyone from the dead and then saying . . . "Oops! I forgot. Everyone is up already." ‘Ridiculous’ is quite the understatement, isn’t it? It’s for idiots to believe and there are very many of them.II Timothy 2: 15 -- Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [emphasis added]When the Word of God is worked with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision, it is as obvious as the day is bright that THE DEAD ARE DEAD and will stay in their unconsciousness state until Jesus Christ returns. Then everyone will get up whether they like it or not. This complete teaching can be taken from chapter 15 in I Corinthians and we will be studying a number of Scriptures from that chapter.On the other hand, the counterfeit god of this world will seemingly offer proof, by twisting the Scriptures out of context [private interpretation], and by other means to get you to believe that the dead are alive. His methods, in the world, are referred to as ‘spiritualism’ (the operation of devil spirits) in the form of seances, mediums, ouija boards, ESP, hypnotism, astrology, misfortune tellers and the list goes on and on. If the devil can get you to believe that dead people are really alive in a different realm, then why would you care if Jesus Christ returns? It is the hope of the return of Jesus Christ that gives us our motivation to go on, to persevere, to study, to renew our mind, changing our lifestyle to line up with what the Word of God teaches us.Romans 13: 14 -- But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ [put on his thoughts], and make not provision for the flesh [the five senses], to fulfil the lusts [over-desires] thereof.Without the hope, we fall into a rut similar to a mundane existence, doing and accomplishing nothing in our lives. Many people, often born-again, live their whole lives believing a lie.I Corinthians 15: 22 -- For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.As a result of Adam’s original sin, all men eventually die unless Jesus Christ returns in his or her lifetime. The Word goes on to inform us that when Christ comes back, all those who died will be made alive. Could God have put it any simpler? You want to argue about it, argue with God. I didn’t write the Bible. Holy men of God wrote it as they were moved/inspired by the Holy Spirit.Galatians 1: 11, 12 – But I certify [guarantee] you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of [from] Jesus Christ.Not only does Satan’s devil spirits influence and persuade people that dead people are living, the enemy counterfeits and imitates the dead person’s vocal chords in seances so that they can speak to their living relatives. Most often the devil makes it appear like these departed ones are not only alive, but are having a grand old time. Like, hey man, it’s fun to be dead. This can make a living relative want to join their lost loved ones. They may, on purpose, simply quit believing and lose their will to live. Worse yet, they may consider and attempt suicide. This could result in a nervous breakdown and being committed to a psychiatric ward or even a state mental hospital. It happens. I worked in a state hospital and I was not surprised to read in a patient’s chart that they had some interest or involvement in the occult at some point in their life. Satan comes on like an angel of light at first – then he waits for the right moment, usually a time of weakness, then he ‘nails’ you – and the word ‘mercy’ does not exist in his vocabulary. Again, we should remember:II Corinthians 11:14 – And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.I warn you from my heart, because I love you, DO NOT get involved in any way with any form of the occult. You will OPEN THE DOOR to the enemy by your own free will, and he will attempt to destroy your life for the rest of your life.When I was in high school, I had, for a while, developed a habit of using a ouija board. I almost died twice and my life was eventually in a shambles. Every day was like a living death. I lost my family and a home I loved through my parent’s divorce, gained a lot of weight, dropped out of two colleges, lost my girlfriend whom I loved dearly, and wound up living in one room for about 8 years. I’m not telling you the bad parts!After immersing myself in God’s rightly divided Word in 1974, all the devil’s oppression slowly left. By 1980, I had a home again with my Dad and his new wife, lost all the excess weight, swam a mile a day, and returned to college only to graduate first in my class in 2 of my 4 years. The second two years were almost all straight A’s. Who gets the glory?! GOD.My picture went in the newspaper and I often considered if some of my old high school teachers "dropped dead" when they saw the article. (By the way, if so, they are still dead).How did this massive change in my life come about?James 4: 7 – Submit [addict] yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.Remember that the devil does not immediately flee. He will continue to tempt you and oppress you and as you continue to resist him, he will eventually cut back on his attacks until he flees. He will work on your weaknesses. Just don’t give up.Philippians 4: 13 -- I can do all thing through Christ which [who] strengtheneth me.I am still as enthusiastic about God’s Word today as I was back in 1975. There is something Jesus Christ said back in the gospels that I want to share with you. He was talking to one of his disciples and asked him this type of question. "Who do you think will be the more thankful, dedicated, committed and enthusiastic believer? The one who was delivered from the least oppression or the one who was delivered from the most oppression and possession?" Again, glory to God – I am that latter person.Today, I am afraid of NO ONE. I am physically fit walking 20 to 50 miles a week. I live in a new home paid off. I give away many material things so I don’t get burdened down. I don’t smoke, drink, gamble or go near drugs. I found favor with God and He gave me a dynamic wife who I sometimes call "superwoman". What a change when I took a stand for God’s Word. It’s truly beyond my comprehension. Why did I tell you this?! I want you to know that I can destroy it all in one instant by consulting a medium, getting hypnotized, buying a ouija board, not studying God’s Word and getting involved in any form of the occult such as astrology. One can destroy his or her life that fast.To be continued...).

Good Testimonythanks

Thief on the cross“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43.This is a punctuation error and should read: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.” There is no punctuation in the original language.Jesus died that day and went to the grave for 3 days, so he did not go to paradise until another day, paradise is in Heaven: “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Rev.2:7. “And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,” Rev.22:1-2.“Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;” Zechariah 9:12. This is a similar example which was fulfilled on a different day.Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Mat 6:2 Verily I say unto thee, Mat 6:5 Verily I say unto you, Mat 6:16 Verily I say unto you, Mat 8:10 Verily I say unto you, Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Mat 10:23 Verily I say unto you,Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, well, you should get the picture, every scripture where verily is used the comma is in the same place there are many more, so I would doubt luke 23:43 the comma is in the wrong place
Jesus died that day and went to the grave for 3 days, so he did not go to paradise until another day, paradise is in Heaven
1Pe 3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The word in Lk 23: 46, Is not "Commit" but "Commend" the Greek meaning is, "entrust", If you was to back up to Lk 23: 43, Jesus said to the man on another cross, "Today you will be with me in paradice. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison " The lower regions. 1 pet 3: 19--20, Jesus entrusted His Spirit to God, That God would not leave Him in hell.When Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in paradice" in v 43 He Ment His Spirit, That is the real you, We are a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. But the real you is a Spirit. At death only the body dies, the spirit and soul live on together, in the place that we choose in this life. As for the dead not knowing anything, what about Lk 16;19--31.